A Controversial Review of the Immaculate

[Gabriel Anton]

Let's see. You said that Scripture doesn't say that Mary was sinless. But what Scripture DOES SAY is that she was not.

You're refuted...by the Word of God, just as you requested.

Peace be with you.

I'm sorry, I don't understand you. All I see is your airy opinion as the Word of God. That's just crazy.

God bless you.

 

[Light of the East]

Jesus Christ is the Incarnate Word of God. The Bible is the Written Word of God. The Written Word of God is very clear about not adding to or taking away from it. You seemingly adding false truths to the Bible about Joseph's family that are never mentioned is an outright sin in itself. Whether you got this information from a priest or a book it is incorrect.

Reading stuff like this makes me want to set my hair on fire and run down the street screaming for the silliness of it.

What book is that found in?

Revelation of St. John.

When St. John wrote the Revelation, was there a Bible AT ALL?????

NO!!!!!!!!!!

Therefore, when St. John wrote this, he could not POSSIBLY have been referring to the whole of the Bible, could he???

THINK!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And just for your information, when the heretic, Arias, went to Nicea to defend his teaching that Christ Jesus is a mere created being of the Father and not God in the Flesh, you know what he relied upon????

SOLA SCRIPTURA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It was the Fathers of the Church who rebuked him by replying that the Holy Tradition of the Church was always that the Church had taught that Christ Jesus is God in the Flesh. So your belief in Christ Jesus as God is based on the VICTORY OF HOLY TRADITION OVER THE HERESY OF "SOLA SCRIPTURA."

(And people wonder why I have such disdain for Protestant "pastors" and "teachers" who deceive their people and teach falsehood as if it is nuggets of truth!!!)

 

[Light of the East]

Revelation 12 uses the symbol of the woman to denote Israel. *Queen of Heaven* is a pagan concept adopted by the RCC but condemned in Scripture.

Go back and read my post #54 on the Queen of Heaven and then come back and try to refute it if you can.

 

[Light of the East]

Not to be put on a high pedestal and worshiped or used as a channel to God.

Nobody worships Her. Get your facts straight, please.

 

[Job8]

Go back and read my post #54 on the Queen of Heaven and then come back and try to refute it if you can.

Yeah, I checked out your post #54, and it has no real basis in Scripture. Just as Christ is called *the last Adam*, the Church -- His Bride and Wife to be -- will fill the role of Eve, and is to be regarded as seated with Him in the heavenlies already.

Mary, on the other hand, was the mother of Jesus. It would be unbecoming of her to be called the Queen of Heaven, and Mary herself would flatly reject that title, knowing that it has pagan origins and is connected with idolatry.

 

[Gabriel Anton]

For one second let's go back to the issue raised!

Anton's words, "Mary was God's Wife" meaning "Goddess." So How was Christ Human? Was he human really? So assuming he wasn't really human but just had something like human then it would mean, he was God 100%. The man aspect was similar to the way he appeared to Abraham when he went to announce the birth of Isaac (the three men), Also the man who fought with Jacob-Israel. So it just means God was God all the time.

So someone explain how Jesus was human?

But why would the Lord take the trouble to create Jesus in Mary's Womb when he would have just become man, called a few shots, persecuted then raised from the dead. Are you saying Jesus' incarnation was FAKE!

Let's run with this for some time, that Jesus was indeed 100% God and 100% Man because he needed to "Literally" bear our sins and by becoming the sin all humankind was pure through his life and blood shed on the cross. If he overcame sin as a human being and also as God then Christians who believed in God and in Christ would eventually overcome it such that despite struggling with it the Lord would be there for us, within our hearts.

1 Corinthians 5 (20,21), "We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God."


When I say Jesus 100% Human, literally, he was 100% human so that he would literally, become the "sin offering" and please for the nth time, Mary was human. The BIBLE SAYS,

Matthew 12:46-50, "While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. 47Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.”48He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” 49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. 50For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”

Jesus throughout the Bible accorded everything to His father in Heaven and never at one point did he accord to his mother (not saying he was disobedient) but it defeats sense if the will of God after centuries later on grew into honoring Mary. Whoever that Indian was, LORD HAVE MERCY!!!

Peace be with you.

26 When Jesus saw his mother and the disciple there whom he loved, he said to his mother, "Woman, behold, your son."

27 Then he said to the disciple, "Behold, your mother." And from that hour the disciple took her into his home.

O, please. Jesus Christ is crucified on the Cross of Redemption, the Center of Attention of Everyone. He Declares His Love for His Mother here to everybody. I'm just following Him by loving His Mother.

God bless you.

 

[Light of the East]

Hi, Cis.jd I don't have an issue theotokos in as far as regarding Mary as the mother of God in the context, "Jesus is God." I do believe she was the most blessed woman and I feel for her for what she had to go through when she saw her son being crucified for something he had not done. I of all the people do not look down on Mary at ALL. She was Christ's mom and Christ meant the whole world to her. I don't need any sacred traditions to tell me that, it's written. I don't believe she's not a worthy mention considering she has been that for a long time.

So, I won't contest her importance in regards to how the Angel Gabriel considered who she was. The only issue I have is the issue of being considered a sinnless person because she gave birth to Christ. No one can prove that she did not consumate her marriage after the birth of Christ or not. The issue of grammar is difficult at this point and I'm not sure if it's in effort of defending the Mariology doctrine or indeed that was the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

All the same, this thing of Mary being sinless fakes Jesus' incarnation!!! It was either he was 100% man and 100% God or just 100% God.

You wouldn't know truth if it came up and slapped you in the face.

I gave you a long post showing you how the Sacred Scriptures, when properly interpreted in the light of covenant theology, show us that Mary is the New Eve and the Queen of Heaven.

Like all Protestants when their falsehoods are popped like a balloon meeting a pin ..... crickets. That's all I hear from your corner.

Except for more bloviation like this.

The same thing is true about Mary's perpetual virginity. She is the Ark of the New Covenant, and if you were half as smart as you figure yourself to be, you would know that no mortal hand is allowed to touch the Ark of the Covenant. Joseph would have been struck dead if he had approached Mary for sexual relations.

If you are so smart, go figure that out for yourself using the Bible alone. I can show it to you, but why waste my time anymore?

 

[Job8]

Nobody worships Her. Get your facts straight, please.

How can she be called Queen of Heaven and NOT be worshiped? Do you see the anomaly? If the King of Heaven is worshiped, then the so-called Queen of Heaven must also be worshiped.

 

[Light of the East]

Yeah, I checked out your post #54, and it has no real basis in Scripture. Just as Christ is called *the last Adam*, the Church -- His Bride and Wife to be -- will fill the role of Eve, and is to be regarded as seated with Him in the heavenlies already.

Mary, on the other hand, was the mother of Jesus. It would be unbecoming of her to be called the Queen of Heaven, and Mary herself would flatly reject that title, knowing that it has pagan origins and is connected with idolatry.

So you just show that you are so blinded by your bigotry and presuppositions that you cannot see the truth even when someone uses the crayons and the large sheet of white paper. How clear does it have to be made to you?

So you would allow the devil to win, eh? God has not restored Eden and His Kingdom in your mind because there is no Eve and no restoration of Eve in your little paradise.

Talk about blind........

 

[Light of the East]

How can she be called Queen of Heaven and NOT be worshiped? Do you see the anomaly? If the King of Heaven is worshiped, then the so-called Queen of Heaven must also be worshiped.

No.

You need to learn to THINK.

God is worshiped in Christ. Mary is not God. Ipso facto, we do not worship Mary. We HONOR Her because She is (as I proved in Post 54) the New Eve, which makes Her our Mother (Mother of all Living) and the Queen of Heaven of the New Covenant.

Christ is God. Mary is not. Christ is worshiped therefore. Mary is not.

Try to get that through your head.

 

[Gabriel Anton]

"The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God."

If Mary was so HOLY how comes the Holy Spirit had to be with her during the conception of Jesus and Power of God had to overshadow her. Do you know how Holy God must be, it had to take the Holy Spirit and the Power of God to help Mary from being "destroyed" by God's presence in her womb.

This thing about Joseph being a medal. "But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus."

I think you can figure what consummating until she gave birth to Jesus ....!!! I know we can figure this MATH!

Peace be with you.

19 Joseph her husband, since he was a righteous man, yet unwilling to expose her to shame, decided to divorce her quietly.

Joseph was married to Mary and wanted to divorce Her.

God bless you.

 

[Magnus Maximus]

Light is right- Mary is the new eve, Mary is also the new ark of the covenant

Mary was sinless--it is proven in the scripture when Gabriel addressed her as full of grace. Did the bible say other people were full of grace latter in the bible yes, but after the death of Jesus

Now why is this important- Mary as all humanity was under the law before Jesus bore our sins on the cross. You cannot be in God's grace and be in sin. The reason believers are in God's grace now is that Jesus reconciled humanity and bore our sins. But Mary was declared full of grace before the Lord's sacrifice so she was already reconciled with God therefore sinless.

 

[JacksBratt]

Mary was a GODDESS!!! RIGHT???

So was Jesus human at all!!!

Mary was not a Goddess. She was a righteous, human being and a sinner. She was, however, a woman who found favor with God and was chosen to be the mother of His son.

 

[JacksBratt]

Acts 6:8, "Now Stephen, full of grace and power, was performing great wonders and signs among the people."

I can find no place in the scripture where the angel sad "full of grace" to Mary. None.
We should not sin and make an idol of Mary. She was a righteous woman, that is for sure. However, just a woman and should not be worshiped, prayed to or asked favors of.

When she died she was judged like every human will be from Noah to Stalin to King James, to Napoleon, to Billy Graham, to me and to you.

 

[JacksBratt]

In your post you stated the below:

What book is that found in?

I believe that it was in regards to this post:

Jesus Christ is the Incarnate Word of God. The Bible is the Written Word of God. The Written Word of God is very clear about not adding to or taking away from it. You seemingly adding false truths to the Bible about Joseph's family that are never mentioned is an outright sin in itself. Whether you got this information from a priest or a book it is incorrect.

So, my answer as to where it is found, I give you this:

John 1King James Version (KJV)

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.


2 The same was in the beginning with God.


3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Then, further down, in the same book of John, we find, in verse 14, the following:

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

So, here we see that Christ has existed from the beginning, He is the Word, He is God, He created all things... that's ALL things. This means that Christ IS the creator.

We then learn that Christ, not only was the word but BECAME flesh and was Christ Jesus.

I hope this helps

 

[Albion]

I'm sorry, I don't understand you. All I see is your airy opinion as the Word of God. That's just crazy..

Since I've said, about five times already, that it's the Word of God that matters, I can't imagine how you missed the message every time. Oh well.

 

[dawn7]

Reading stuff like this makes me want to set my hair on fire and run down the street screaming for the silliness of it.

What book is that found in?

Revelation of St. John.

When St. John wrote the Revelation, was there a Bible AT ALL?????

NO!!!!!!!!!!

Therefore, when St. John wrote this, he could not POSSIBLY have been referring to the whole of the Bible, could he???

THINK!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And just for your information, when the heretic, Arias, went to Nicea to defend his teaching that Christ Jesus is a mere created being of the Father and not God in the Flesh, you know what he relied upon????

SOLA SCRIPTURA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It was the Fathers of the Church who rebuked him by replying that the Holy Tradition of the Church was always that the Church had taught that Christ Jesus is God in the Flesh. So your belief in Christ Jesus as God is based on the VICTORY OF HOLY TRADITION OVER THE HERESY OF "SOLA SCRIPTURA."

(And people wonder why I have such disdain for Protestant "pastors" and "teachers" who deceive their people and teach falsehood as if it is nuggets of truth!!!)

Read Matthew 15:1-14

 

[Magnus Maximus]

I can find no place in the scripture where the angel sad "full of grace" to Mary. None.
We should not sin and make an idol of Mary. She was a righteous woman, that is for sure. However, just a woman and should not be worshiped, prayed to or asked favors of.

When she died she was judged like every human will be from Noah to Stalin to King James, to Napoleon, to Billy Graham, to me and to you.

You are incorrect

Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you.

Luke 1:28 "And coming to her, he said, "Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you."

The Greek kecharitomene means favored by grace, graced. Its tense suggests a permanent state of being "highly favored," thus full of grace. Charity, the divine love within us, comes from the same root. God is infinite Goodness, infinite Love. Mary is perfect created goodness, filled to the limit of her finite being with grace or charity.

Blessed art thou among women

Luke 1:41-42a "When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the infant leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth, filled with the holy Spirit, cried out in a loud voice and said, "Most blessed are you among women..."

Luke 1:48 "For he has looked upon his handmaid's lowliness; behold, from now on will all ages call me blessed."

Among all women is a way to say the highest/greatest etc. of a group in Semitic languages (these words would likely have been spoken in Aramaic). Mary is being called the greatest of all women, greater than Ruth, greater than Sarah, greater than EVE! Since Eve was created immaculate (without original sin), Mary must have been conceived immaculate. And, although Eve fell into sin by her own free will, Mary must have corresponded to God's grace and remained sinless. She could not otherwise be greater than Eve. Thus, as the Fathers of the Church unanimously assert, Mary is the New Eve who restores womanhood to God's original intention and cooperates with the New Adam, her Son, for the Redemption of the world.

https://www.ewtn.com/Devotionals/prayers/rosary/scripture.htm

 

[Albion]

You are incorrect

Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you.

Luke 1:28 "And coming to her, he said, "Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you."

The Greek kecharitomene means favored by grace, graced. Its tense suggests a permanent state of being "highly favored," thus full of grace. Charity, the divine love within us, comes from the same root. God is infinite Goodness, infinite Love. Mary is perfect created goodness, filled to the limit of her finite being with grace or charity.

Blessed art thou among women

Luke 1:41-42a "When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the infant leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth, filled with the holy Spirit, cried out in a loud voice and said, "Most blessed are you among women..."

Luke 1:48 "For he has looked upon his handmaid's lowliness; behold, from now on will all ages call me blessed."

Among all women is a way to say the highest/greatest etc. of a group in Semitic languages (these words would likely have been spoken in Aramaic). Mary is being called the greatest of all women, greater than Ruth, greater than Sarah, greater than EVE! Since Eve was created immaculate (without original sin), Mary must have been conceived immaculate. And, although Eve fell into sin by her own free will, Mary must have corresponded to God's grace and remained sinless. She could not otherwise be greater than Eve. Thus, as the Fathers of the Church unanimously assert, Mary is the New Eve who restores womanhood to God's original intention and cooperates with the New Adam, her Son, for the Redemption of the world.

https://www.ewtn.com/Devotionals/prayers/rosary/scripture.htm

Once again. We all agree that she was chosen by God and deserves honor because of it. That's all that these verses indicate.

 

[Linet Kihonge]

I will drag this thread behind until I understand what this verse meant,

"But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a Son. And he gave Him the name Jesus."

ENGLISH 101
I didn't know the market sold kales and other vegetables until I went there.
I was not aware she was flying to London until I bumped into her on the streets.
The professor was not aware of the new student until he looked up.
The car's Chauffeur didn't see the red sign until he passed the crossed sign.

Now what does the word insinuate. It says, that the professor had no clue there was a new student and only became aware of him when he looked up.

Enough!

"In the sixth month of Elizabeth’s pregnancy, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, 27to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin’s name was Mary. 28The angel went to her and said, “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.”

Joseph was the descendant of David not her. But she was most favored to have carried Jesus. It doesn't mean sinless it means "FAVORED"

Gen 6:8, "8But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD."