A Controversial Review of the Immaculate

[Job8]

Queen of Heaven: Revelation 12

Revelation 12 uses the symbol of the woman to denote Israel. *Queen of Heaven* is a pagan concept adopted by the RCC but condemned in Scripture.

 

[Meowzltov]

Revelation 12 uses the symbol of the woman to denote Israel. *Queen of Heaven* is a pagan concept adopted by the RCC but condemned in Scripture.

Who gives birth to the Messiah? Mary. This is why in many pictures of Mary she has a crown of 12 stars.

 

[Blever]

Mary knew who she was - a normal human being who found favour from God (like you and me). But she was privileged to give birth to the Son of God. Like anyone else she had trouble grasping the whole thing - as the Holy Spirit was not given to all at that time.

She is a very respectable lady. Not to be put on a high pedestal and worshiped or used as a channel to God. Joseph then would deserve similar honour...and Christianity, my friend(s), is NOT polytheistic.

p.s. would love to hear from Mary herself about this current situation.

 

[FaeryChild]

In Revelation 12, it begins by depicting a Woman who is of a regal nature: She is clothed with the sun, the moon is under her feet, and on Her head has a crown of 12 stars. To speak of this woman as "Queen of Heaven" is hardly a stretch - queens wear crown and "clothed with the sun" is clearly of Heaven. The "crown of 12 stars" is an obvious reference to the 12 tribes of Israel. The Woman is not Israel Herself, but rather the Woman is crowned with Israel. Israel's place in the Salvation Story was to provide the Messiah and since Mary said yes, she rightly wears the crown of Israel. Clearly this Woman is Mary. It goes on to talk of Her being pregnant and having labor pains. Mary was pregnant with Jesus and gave birth to Him. The Great Dragon appears in an attempt to devour the child (this is obviously Satan trying to get rid of Jesus before He could bring Salvation). This is paired with the Great Battle in Heaven and the fall, since this is Satan's fall: that he wanted to usurp God's plan: then, now and always. The Child is to rule all nations and is protected by God Himself (clearly Jesus). The Earthly context for this battle is Herod's attempt to kill the innocents - which is why the very next sentence tells us that the Woman fled to the wilderness where she was nourished for 1260 days. Again, the Woman is a clear reference to Mary. After several verses of describing the scene of the spiritual battle, it returns to the narrative about Mary. She ends up having the male child and frustrated that he could not destroy Mary or Jesus - Satan goes to war against "the rest of Her offspring" which is an obvious reference to The Church, for these are described as "those who keep the commandments of God and the testimony of Jesus".

So yeah, Mary is the Queen of Heaven!

 

[FaeryChild]

Interestingly enough, Mary has made many visitations and appearances to those in the Church. She is clearly advocates for us and is available to call upon for intercession. Also interestingly enough, she often has chastised us and told us to be more faithful in following Jesus. So, even as I insist she would agree with accept titles such as "Queen" and intercessory prayers and petitions... all of that... it's fine as long as you always remember:

When you ask Mary to save you, She will always save you by showing you where Jesus is. It will always be through the Body and the Blood.

 

[Geralt]

i simple see it as a different mary, NOT the jewish mary of scripture.

 

[Gabriel Anton]

I'm not sure if that's all sarcasm or intended to be just a brush-off, but I assure you that what I said was meant in a very straightforward way, hoping that you'd give it some consideration.

"If wishes were horses,..." you know. It's prudent to have a religious anchor so that we don't just run off in all directions with beautiful thoughts that, however, aren't real. That's why virtually all Christian churches consider the Bible to be the revealed Word of God given for our guidance in matters such as this.

Peace be with you.

I'm not the only believer in Her. You think we are wrong and delusional and should turn to your guidance for Truth?

Just to put into perspective to you what you said to me in post 31 and 33.

Daydreaming about fantasy in Heaven with God comes into my mind about sinners with a Christian attitude.

God bless you.

 

[Colter]

Christians elevate Satan in the same way, delighting powers and activities to him that he never had. At times it's as if people have more faith in a discredited, defeated, God like Satan than in the real Living God.

Mary and Joseph were selected as the family that would host the incarnate Son. I believe the same veneration of Mary that evolved in the Pagan world also contributed the virgin birth theory because Jesus never said anything about his mom like that.

 

[Albion]

Mary is a saint, NOT DEITY. Catholics are NOT confused about this. .

That's why it's often said that some Catholics treat Mary as if she were a deity. Doing this would be wrong, too, I hope you can agree.

 

[Albion]

Peace be with you.

I'm not the only believer in Her.

We ALL believe in her, Gabriel. If you've missed all the posts in which the rest of us have affirmed that she is deserving of special honor, I wish there were an easy way to point you to them.

You think we are wrong and delusional and should turn to your guidance for Truth?

I didn't say you are delusional; and I thought I was quite clear when I said--several times--that it's GOD'S WORD we all should turn to for the guidance, not to me.

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

This post will hurt but truth be told, some prayers are just too much!!!

"O Immaculate Heart of Mary, Heavenly beauty and splendor of the Father, You are the most valued Heavenly treasure.
New Eve, immaculate in soul, spirit and body, Created of the godly seed by the Spirit of God, You are the spiritual Mother of mankind.
Pure Virgin, full of grace then and now, Your whole being was raised Heavenly in full glory, To be elevated above all the hosts within the Kingdom of God.
O Heavenly Mother, Queen of Heaven and earth, I recognize the glory of your highest title, The Immaculate Heart of Mary!

Ephesians 3:14-16, "For this reason I kneel before the Father, 15 from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name. 16 I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being," (Prayer for the Ephesians from Paul).

Matthew 11 (24,25), "But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you.”25 At that time Jesus declared, “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth,"

Matthew 6:14, "For if you forgive men their trespasses, your Heavenly Father will also forgive you.


I just need to get something cleared up. I feel someone needs to explain where all the exaltation and use of praises commonly offered to God being offered to someone that no one in the bible ever used on a departed saint... What chapters did we look over, what sins have been made for not recognizing "Virgin", are we going to hell because she's a lot more than we think she is, are we worshiping the doctrinal correct way, biblical correct way or the traditional correct way, is the bible authoritative or not in deciding this "theotokos" issue, who's is the Mary mother of Christ? seriously.

Heresy at it's best. The fact is Jesus always existed read John 1

 

[Gabriel Anton]

What if I believed her to be the fourth person of the Trinity or my very own Sister (instead of Mother)? Would she be such?

I'm saying that, as I read your messages, it appears that you think it would be glorious, uplifting, spiritually edifying, or something like that...IF Mary were all these things you referred to. BUT if there's no reason to think that any of them are really true, then you might as well imagine anything else that makes you feel good.

Doing that only results in fooling yourself, like the orphan who talks herself into thinking her real parents are a prince and princess who are going to come for her one of these days soon and whisk her away to some castle.

We ALL believe in her, Gabriel. If you've missed all the posts in which the rest of us have affirmed that she is deserving of special honor, I wish there were an easy way to point you to them.


I didn't say you are delusional; and I thought I was quite clear when I said--several times--that it's GOD'S WORD we all should turn to for the guidance, not to me.

Peace be with you.

Don't talk rubbish with me. Explain yourself here.

My mind does not comprehend foolish utterances. I live and die by the Word of God.

In post 26, I explain myself that God has willed for Mary to be my Mother using the Bible passages.

You want to refute my position on Her, you bring up Biblical passages to support your position. You don't come and tell me to depart from God's Will because you think you are the right and correct Christian.

I don't clown around with words without good and proper purposes.

God bless you.

 

[Albion]

Peace be with you.

Don't talk rubbish with me. Explain yourself here.

How many times would you like me to do that? How many will it take? See posts 70, 69, and 33 for starters. I made the same point in all of them.

 

[Gabriel Anton]

Mary's words in Magnificat
Luke 1:47 'and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior'
A mortal needs God. A sinner requires a saviour.
Case is rested.....(as for me, that is)

Peace be with you.

There are No Scriptural passages saying Mary, the Mother of God is a sinner.

38 Mary said, "Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord. May it be done to me according to your word." Then the angel departed from her.

This verse is stating that She is a Female Servant of the Lord. You are saying a Female Servant of the Lord is a sinner?

There are same references about Jesus Christ being the Servant of the Lord.

God bless you.

 

[Gabriel Anton]

How many times would you like me to do that? How many will it take? See posts 70, 69, and 33 for starters. I made the same point in all of them.

Peace be with you.

All you have is your opinions. How is that suppose to refute anything?

God bless you.

 

[Albion]

Peace be with you.

There are No Scriptural passages saying Mary, the Mother of God is a sinner.

Of course there are. Scripture says that all men are born in sin and Mary herself said that she needed a savior; no one needs a savior unless he's a sinner.

 

[Albion]

Peace be with you.

All you have is your opinions. How is that suppose to refute anything?

That's rather ironic, wouldn't you say--considering that we began this dialog with you saying you believe what you do about Mary because you like to think of her that way, not for any other reason?

For the fourth or fifth time, I've said that we need to decide these things on the basis of Scripture.

 

[Gabriel Anton]

Of course there are. Mary herself said that she needed a savior, and no one needs a savior unless he's a sinner.

Peace be with you.

There are No Scriptural passages saying Mary, the Mother of God is a sinner.

38 Mary said, "Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord. May it be done to me according to your word." Then the angel departed from her.

This verse is stating that She is a Female Servant of the Lord. You are saying a Female Servant of the Lord is a sinner?

There are same references about Jesus Christ being the Servant of the Lord.

God bless you.

 

[Job8]

Who gives birth to the Messiah? Mary. This is why in many pictures of Mary she has a crown of 12 stars.

Well that is clearly a misapplication of this symbolic woman clothed with the sun. The twelve stars represent the 12 tribes of Israel, and Messiah Himself came forth from Israel of the tribe of Judah and the line of David (Micah 5:2). Furthermore the believing remnant attacked by Satan can only be the believing remnant of Israel, not Mary.

 

[Gabriel Anton]

Peace be with you.

15 When Jesus realized this, he withdrew from that place. Many (people) followed him, and he cured them all,

16 but he warned them not to make him known.

17 This was to fulfill what had been spoken through Isaiah the prophet:

18 "Behold, my servant whom I have chosen, my beloved in whom I delight; I shall place my spirit upon him, and he will proclaim justice to the Gentiles.

19 He will not contend or cry out, nor will anyone hear his voice in the streets.

20 A bruised reed he will not break, a smoldering wick he will not quench, until he brings justice to victory.

21 And in his name the Gentiles will hope."

Here, Jesus is referred to as My Servant.

38 Mary said, "Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord. May it be done to me according to your word." Then the angel departed from her.

This verse is stating that She is a Female Servant of the Lord. You are saying a Female Servant of the Lord is a sinner?

God bless you.