A Collision of Two Christianities

[fhansen]

That's a reference to counterfeit faith.

According to yourself maybe, But faith is a separate item from hope and love in the bible-and Augustine was aware of that, and of the necessity of all three. Faith is the beginning, the foundation, of salvation, not the end of it.
"The only thing that counts is faith working through love." Gal 5:6

Agape love necessarily contains and encompasses faith and hope, but not the other way around.

 

[d taylor]

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Yes, fallen angels. The others believed and don't tremble; they're saved. I actually like how Augustine summed it up:
"Without love faith may indeed exist, but avails nothing."

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Demons are not fallen angels.

 

[fhansen]

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Demons are not fallen angels.

Most think they are. And they had to come from somewhere, and had to decide against God at some time either way. And even though they acknowledge His existence, they obstinately wish not to draw near to Him, or no longer can, and tremble because they must know the ultimate outcome of that.

 

[d taylor]

Most think they are. And they had to come from somewhere, and had to decide against God at some time either way. And even though they acknowledge His existence, they obstinately wish not to draw near to Him, or no longer can, and tremble because they must know the ultimate outcome of that.

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Demons are the seed of fallen angels and are the disembodied spirits of the nephilim and drowned in the flood. That is why they seek out waterless places.

 

[Clare73]

He was certainly opposing those who think that their faith was sufficient without works. And I've encountered many such thinkers here on the forums and elsewhere.

That's what I said.

 

[RDKirk]

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That must be sad to go through life not knowing if you have believed in Jesus and received God's free gift of eternal Life. If i had a theological belief teaching that, the doubting of God's promise, i would tell them a permanent goodbye.

I guess if you do not know, then more than likely you have not. or a person has believed and has been corrupted by very bad teaching, bringing forth doubt in their mind.

I edited my post. I mean that only God knows about other people. We can by the Holy Spirit know about ourselves. My wife and I have been through enough biblical-level spiritual events to know where we are with the Lord.

Yet, some people appear to delude themselves. There are radical Cessationists who believe the Holy Spirit is silent and neither speaks to anyone or moves in anyone today...how can they know if their faith is true if they feel nothing?

 

[fhansen]

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Demons are the seed of fallen angels and are the disembodied spirits of the nephilim and drowned in the flood. That is why they seek out waterless places.

That's one opinion-and not a significant one anyway as it pertains to the discussion.

 

[fhansen]

That's what I said.

Alright, so faith alone may be insufficient.

 

[d taylor]

I edited my post. I mean that only God knows about other people. We can by the Holy Spirit know about ourselves. My wife and I have been through enough biblical-level spiritual events to know where we are with the Lord.

Yet, some people appear to delude themselves. There are radical Cessationists who believe the Holy Spirit is silent and neither speaks to anyone or moves in anyone today...how can they know if their faith is true if they feel nothing?

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That is true, but in The Bible when it is said of someone they believed in Jesus. That is 100% guarantee whoever The Bible is speaking of they are a born again child of God.

Now when He was in Jerusalem at the Passover, during the feast, many believed in His name when they saw the signs which He did. But Jesus did not commit Himself to them, because He knew all men, and had no need that anyone should testify of man, for He knew what was in man.

Nevertheless even among the rulers many believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they did not confess Him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue; for they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.

Ananias and Sapphira, Simon (the sorcerer), king Saul, all are born again children of God

In God's family of born again children of God, there are winners and losers. Children who bring glory to God and children who bring shame, because they never escaped the world in their earthly life.

 

[d taylor]

That's one opinion-and not a significant one anyway as it pertains to the discussion.

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Well the verse that you used from James 2 about demons believing.

You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble!

Is not even addressing what a person must believe to receive God's free gift of eternal life. Which is to believe in Jesus for Eternal Life believing Jesus is who He says He is The Son of God/The Messiah, the resurrection and the life.

There is no verse in The Bible that states to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life believe God is one.

So why even bring up James 2:19 in a discussion about people and what they must do to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life salvation.

 

[RDKirk]

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That is true, but in The Bible when it is said of someone they believed in Jesus. That is 100% guarantee whoever The Bible is speaking of they are a born again child of God.

Now when He was in Jerusalem at the Passover, during the feast, many believed in His name when they saw the signs which He did. But Jesus did not commit Himself to them, because He knew all men, and had no need that anyone should testify of man, for He knew what was in man.

Nevertheless even among the rulers many believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they did not confess Him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue; for they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.

Ananias and Sapphira, Simon (the sorcerer), king Saul, all are born again children of God

In God's family of born again children of God, there are winners and losers. Children who bring glory to God and children who bring shame, because they never escaped the world in their earthly life.

That appears to say "born again child of God" can yet be unsaved.

"Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven." Matthew 10

"Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God: But he that denieth me before men shall be denied before the angels of God." Luke 12

So, then, for instance, those Pharisees who did not confess Jesus because they loved the praise of men are "born again child of God" by your definition, but scripture seems clear that they are not saved.

 

[fhansen]

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Well the verse that you used from James 2 about demons believing.

You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble!

Is not even addressing what a person must believe to receive God's free gift of eternal life. Which is to believe in Jesus for Eternal Life believing Jesus is who He says He is The Son of God/The Messiah, the resurrection and the life.

There is no verse in The Bible that states to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life believe God is one.

So why even bring up James 2:19 in a discussion about people and what they must do to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life salvation.

Because James is telling us that faith, alone, is insufficient. It can be said that Lucifer and all his minions: fallen angels, demons, et al, believe that "Jesus is who He says He is The Son of God/The Messiah, the resurrection and the life" and that this, in their hate and pride and obstinate rebellion, only makes them hate Him more. James was opposing a mentality that says, in a way, that we, too, can stay as we are, that believes that the sheer act of faith in certain truths equates to righteousness, and therefore salvation, causing confusion about whether or not they must also be changed in thought, word, and deed for the better, with many apparently becoming antinomian.

But man is to be clothed in a far more glorious robe than faith when he meets God; God will recognize His own by the love that radiates from them, reflecting His own love. The gifts of faith, hope, and love are supernatural gifts of grace, but they must be acted on, expressed, and grown: fruit-bearing. The leaders in John 12:42-43 believed but they would not profess because,
"they loved human praise more than praise from God".

I don't think that's a real good sign regarding their salvation. Love, especially, as the most important of the virtues, acts for the good of God's kingdom and for neighbor, spreading the good news of His goodness, mercy, love, and promise and desire for all to be with Him in sublime, uncompromised happiness while opposing injustice and addressing the needs of the poor, downtrodden, sick, imprisoned, depressed, addicted, victimized, sinful, hopeless in a world still far removed from that blessed state with Him.

 

[Clare73]

Alright, so faith alone may be insufficient.

Okay. . .genuine saving faith always has the fruit of works, or it is not genuine saving faith.

But it is not the works of that faith which save, it is the faith alone, apart from its works, which saves (Eph 2:8-9).

 

[RDKirk]

Okay. . .genuine saving faith always has the fruit of works, or it is not genuine saving faith.

But it is not the works of that faith which save, it is the faith alone, apart from its works, which saves (Eph 2:8-9).

Is a fig tree that doesn't bear figs really a fig tree?

In a house we once lived, we had a pear tree that was 75 years old...beyond the years a pear tree should even still be alive, much less still bear fruit. But every three years or so, it would squeeze out a few pears.

 

[Clare73]

Is a fig tree that doesn't bear figs really a fig tree?

What is it then, an apple tree?

There are pearless pear trees that never produce pears.

In a house we once lived, we had a pear tree that was 75 years old...beyond the years a pear tree should even still be alive, much less still bear fruit. But every three years or so, it would squeeze out a few pears.

 

[fhansen]

Okay. . .genuine saving faith always has the fruit of works, or it is not genuine saving faith.

"Genuine saving faith", if that's even a useful or accurate term, is something that we must act upon, we must express; faith doesn't remove our freedom from refusing to do so anymore than it kept the leaders in Matt 12:42-43 from refraining from professing their faith because "they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God". That passage speaks nothing of counterfeit or false faith; it only says that they "believed", but... Good fruit, including the overcoming of sin, is not guaranteed IOW, as I've been witness to in some churches I've attended in the past as well as present. We must make the effort, to participate in God's work, to be victorious by virtue of communion with Him as we pick up our cross and follow Him daily.

This idea that some are saved all at once and permanently while others are not is not the gospel and not how it works in real life. And it leaves many souls agonizing or confused and wondering why they don't have this 100% certainy and conviction that the bible ecourages us towards but balances out with the understanding that our continuous cooperation in God's work and with His grace is necessary.

 

[Clare73]

"Genuine saving faith", if that's even a useful or accurate term,

It is such in the light of counterfeit faith (tares).

is something that we must act upon, we must express;

Of course. . .in obedience enabled by the Holy Spirit.

 

[d taylor]

That appears to say "born again child of God" can yet be unsaved.

"Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven." Matthew 10

"Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God: But he that denieth me before men shall be denied before the angels of God." Luke 12

So, then, for instance, those Pharisees who did not confess Jesus because they loved the praise of men are "born again child of God" by your definition, but scripture seems clear that they are not saved.

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John 12 is about praise from God. How are you getting God not praising a believer child to them not being saved.
In Matthew 10 there is also nothing about a believer who does not confess Jesus, being unsaved. Again Jesus' confession is a confession of praise and is connected to rewards.

Believers who deny Jesus will be denied praise and rewards from God. Peter denied Jesus three times, he did not lose his eternal life or was not a true believer (as many call it). Then Jesus restored him back into fellowship in the family of God, where Peter eventually became a strong leader.

Has This Passage Ever Bothered You? — Matthew 10:32-33 – Grace Evangelical Society

Is Confessing Christ a Condition of Salvation? – Matthew 10:32-33 – Grace Evangelical Society

Eternal Rewards and Denying Christ – Grace Evangelical Society

Deny Christ and Ruling with Him – Grace Evangelical Society

 

[d taylor]

Because James is telling us that faith, alone, is insufficient. It can be said that Lucifer and all his minions: fallen angels, demons, et al, believe that "Jesus is who He says He is The Son of God/The Messiah, the resurrection and the life" and that this, in their hate and pride and obstinate rebellion, only makes them hate Him more. James was opposing a mentality that says, in a way, that we, too, can stay as we are, that believes that the sheer act of faith in certain truths equates to righteousness, and therefore salvation, causing confusion about whether or not they must also be changed in thought, word, and deed for the better, with many apparently becoming antinomian.

But man is to be clothed in a far more glorious robe than faith when he meets God; God will recognize His own by the love that radiates from them, reflecting His own love. The gifts of faith, hope, and love are supernatural gifts of grace, but they must be acted on, expressed, and grown: fruit-bearing. The leaders in John 12:42-43 believed but they would not profess because,
"they loved human praise more than praise from God".

I don't think that's a real good sign regarding their salvation. Love, especially, as the most important of the virtues, acts for the good of God's kingdom and for neighbor, spreading the good news of His goodness, mercy, love, and promise and desire for all to be with Him in sublime, uncompromised happiness while opposing injustice and addressing the needs of the poor, downtrodden, sick, imprisoned, depressed, addicted, victimized, sinful, hopeless in a world still far removed from that blessed state with Him.

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So show the verse where James states faith is not enough to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life salvation.

James in chapter 2 is clearly trying to urge his readers who are born again believers. To do not rest on their faith and eternal life and get active in serving God.

If they do nothing with their life as a believer they are wasting their live living with dead faith that produces no fruit.

There is absolutely nothing about not being an actual believer or losing their salvation in James 2. It is just inserted by people who have been exposed to bad teaching.

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[fhansen]

So show the verse where James states faith is not enough to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life salvation.

James in chapter 2 is clearly trying to urge his readers who are born again believers. To do not rest on their faith and eternal life and get active in serving God.

If they do nothing with their life as a believer they are wasting their live living with dead faith that produces no fruit.

There is absolutely nothing about not being an actual believer or losing their salvation in James 2. It is just inserted by people who have been exposed to bad teaching.

So, then, even the faith of the demons will save them? James is obviously saying that a faith without works/fruit will not cause them to be considered as righteous and, consequently, will not save them.