A Collision of Two Christianities

[d taylor]

Faith is profitable, always. If nothing is produced, it is not faith.

-
​

You seem to believe eternal life is a goal to be achieved and not a gift to receive solely by belief in Jesus.

Which is the popular belief in churches.

 

[RDKirk]

-
​

You seem to believe eternal life is a goal to be achieved and not a gift to receive solely by belief in Jesus.

Which is the popular belief in churches.

There is no logical way for you to have gotten to that conclusion from what I said. You clearly inserted your own prejudice into that statement.

Faith is given by the Lord, and that faith is effective. If someone has something that is feckless, that's not faith, that's some delusion.

 

[d taylor]

There is no logical way for you to have gotten to that conclusion from what I said. You clearly inserted your own prejudice into that statement.

Faith is given by the Lord, and that faith is effective. If someone has something that is feckless, that's not faith, that's some delusion.

-
​

So seem confused eternal life is the gift given by God.

Either that or you are a calvanist/reformed and if that is the case. We do not hold the same beliefs and there is nothing really else to discuss.

 

[fhansen]

-
​

Twice in James Chapter 2 we read: “Faith without works is dead” (Jas 2:20, 26). And once we read, “Faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead” (Jas 2:17). Many commentators focus on the word dead. They wrongly think James means that faith without works is not faith. But dead in this context means unprofitable. Note the expression “What does it profit?” at the start of verse 14 and the end of verse 16. Then James says, “Thus also by itself, if it does not have works, is dead/unprofitable” (Jas 2:17).

The rest can be read here What Is Faith Without Works? James 2:17, 20, 26 – Grace Evangelical Society

and more here on this topic Faith Without Works is Dead — James 2:14-17 – Grace Evangelical Society
The KISS Method for James 2 – Grace Evangelical Society - Salvation by a Dead, Spoken-Only Faith – Grace Evangelical Society

Yes unprofitable towards salvation, like the faith of demons. Faith that doesn’t please God.

 

[d taylor]

Yes unprofitable towards salvation, like the faith of demons. Faith that doesn’t please God.

-
​

Such a simple understanding but yet people who hold to a works based salvation do not understand. That Eternal Life (The Life of God) was never offered to demons. As demons were never from the seed of Adam and Eve, but were the seed of satan and angels.

 

[d taylor]

-
​

People who do not or can not distinguish between the moment a person believes in Jesus and immediately at the very moment of belief in Jesus. The person becomes a pernamnet born again child of God.

With the area of a believers life and how the believer should live their life after belief in Jesus. Trying best to pattern their life as a believer after Jesus.

Will always take the discipleship growth area of a believers life and how they should live as a born again child of God and apply it to something the person must do. To actually and eventually become what they call a true believer. Which ends up creating a man fashioned idea on what people must do to gain eternal life by efforts they do in their life, up and until they die.

So basically a person can not actually believe in in Jesus for eternal life salvation till they have their life cleaned up and living righteously.

 

[Clare73]

Yes, that would be quite strange. Now, if someone believed that faith, alone, wasn’t enough, that would make sense. And that is what James was emphasizing in chap 2 of his letter, that faith without good fruit would be ridiculous, or worthless.

James is stating that true faith produces good fruit; therefore, no good fruit means no saving faith and, therefore, no salvation.

 

[Clare73]

-​

People who do not or can not distinguish between the moment a person believes in Jesus and immediately at the very moment of belief in Jesus. The person becomes a pernamnet born again child of God.
With the area of a believers life and how the believer should live their life after belief in Jesus. Trying best to pattern their life as a believer after Jesus.

Will always take the discipleship growth area of a believers life and how they should live as a born again child of God and apply it to something the person must do. To actually and eventually become what they call a true believer. Which ends up creating a man fashioned idea on what people must do to gain eternal life by efforts they do in their life, up and until they die.
So basically a person can not actually believe in in Jesus for eternal life salvation till they have their life cleaned up and living righteously.

No, the sinner is born again by the sovereign choice of the Holy Spirit, and then turns from their sin to obedience by the power of God in the new birth.

 

[d taylor]

No, the sinner is born again by the sovereign choice of the Holy Spirit, and then turns from their sin to obedience by the power of God in the new birth.

-
​

Yea right, there are many verses in the Gospel of John stating a person becomes a believer when The Holy Spirit chooses to select a person and then that person turns from their sin.

 

[d taylor]

No, the sinner is born again by the sovereign choice of the Holy Spirit, and then turns from their sin to obedience by the power of God in the new birth.

-
​

I was not agreeing with your post, in my post #109. My belief is completely opposite of any calvanist theology

 

[RDKirk]

-
​

I was not agreeing with your post, in my post #109. My belief is completely opposite of any calvanist theology

And yet, there are those verses from John, the very words of Jesus, of which we must take account. They certainly mean something.

You think it must be an either/or with a vast chasm between. Not so.

 

[RDKirk]

James is stating that true faith produces good fruit; therefore, no good fruit means no saving faith and, therefore, no salvation.

Yes.

Jesus said that even "small faith" the size of a mustard seed is powerful enough to move mountains. Faith the size of a hydrogen atom is powerful enough to break an alcohol addiction. Faith the size of an oxygen molecule is powerful enough to break a secret pornography addiction.

Here is where some people may misunderstand: That "good fruit" may not be visible to the casual eye, but faith will always produce it.

 

[d taylor]

And yet, there are those verses from John, the very words of Jesus, of which we must take account. They certainly mean something.

You think it must be an either/or with a vast chasm between. Not so.

-​

This is a permanent born again child of God

But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

 

[RDKirk]

-​

This is a permanent born again child of God

But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

Who among us are the "permanent" born again children of God? Your very own phrase implies some are "permanent" and some are "impermanent." Those seeds sown onto rocks sprouted just as eagerly as those sown on good soil. Both seeds sprouted eagerly. It was not the fault of the seeds sown on the rocks that they were sown on rocks; it was not the virtue of the seeds sown on good soil that they were sown on good soil. The sower made those decisions.

We can't point to anyone and know for sure. Even Paul was fooled by Demas. Only God knows about other people. We can only know for ourselves, and then only if we do not delude ourselves.

This debate would not have continued for these hundreds of years among people equally versed in scripture if there was not scripture that bulwarks both sides.

Obviously to believers, scripture is not in conflict with itself...we just haven't come to a consensus of how it works together.

 

[d taylor]

Who among us are the "permanent" born again children of God? Your very own phrase implies some are "permanent" and some are "impermanent." Those sown onto rocks sprouted just as eagerly as those sown on good soil. Both seeds sprouted eagerly. It was not the fault of the seeds sown on the rocks that they were sown on rocks; it was not the virtue of the seeds sown on good soil that they were sown on good soil. The sower made those decisions.

We can't point to anyone and know for sure. Even Paul was fooled by Demas. Only God knows.

This debate would not have continued for these hundreds of years among people equally versed in scripture there was not scripture that bulwarks both sides.

Obviously to believers, scripture is not in conflict with itself...we just haven't come to a consensus of how it works together.

-
​

That must be sad to go through life not knowing if you have believed in Jesus and received God's free gift of eternal Life. If i had a theological belief teaching that, the doubting of God's promise, i would tell them a permanent goodbye.

I guess if you do not know, then more than likely you have not. or a person has believed and has been corrupted by very bad teaching, bringing forth doubt in their mind.

 

[fhansen]

-
​

Such a simple understanding but yet people who hold to a works based salvation do not understand. That Eternal Life (The Life of God0 was never offered to demons. As demons were never from the seed of Adam and Eve, but were the seed of satan and angels.

Yes, fallen angels. The others believed and don't tremble; they're saved. I actually like how Augustine summed it up:
"Without love faith may indeed exist, but avails nothing."

 

[fhansen]

James is stating that true faith produces good fruit; therefore, no good fruit means no saving faith and, therefore, no salvation.

Post #116 says it pretty well. Faith should certainly lead to works as it should certainly lead to love of God and neighbor, but it can apparently be separated from either, which is why James insisted:
"You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone."

We can resist the work and movement of the Spirit in us. James isn't talking about being justified by those works, but about being justifedf by God as we turn to Him and are grafted in by faith. That grafting means the Holy Spisit is indwelling and that relationship, that connection to God, itself, which results in love (Rom 5:5) is the real source and definition and essence of the justice/righteousness He gives us. Walk in that righteousness which is apart from the law (Rom 3:21), in that light, that love, with the Spirit now who enables it and we will be "considered righteous".

 

[Clare73]

Yes, fallen angels. The others believed and don't tremble; they're saved. I actually like how Augustine summed it up:
"Without love faith may indeed exist, but avails nothing."

That's a reference to counterfeit faith.

 

[Clare73]

Post #116 says it pretty well. Faith should certainly lead to works as it should certainly lead to love of God and neighbor, but it can apparently be separated from either, which is why James insisted:
"You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone."

James is simply pointing out that where there is no fruit, there is no true faith, only counterfeit faith.

 

[fhansen]

James is simply pointing out that where there is no fruit, there is no true faith, only counterfeit faith.

He was certainly opposing those who think that their faith was sufficient without works. And I've encountered many such thinkers here on the forums and elsewhere.