A Collision of Two Christianities

[fhansen]

But in actuality they don't when the Holy Spirit gives them to prefer otherwise, and so they freely choose what they prefer.

It's not about what "can be," it's about what, in actuality, "is."

No one freely chooses what they are caused to prefer-that's a contradiction, and would necessarily relate to a wholly different "they", or some kind of automaton now.

 

[fhansen]

He keeps us by his grace causing us not to desire to resist and oppose his work.

Unless we say, "no", which is what Augustine was getting at. This dynamic, between man's will and God's desire for all men to be saved, is at the heart of the Christian faith. He gives us all the faith we need to turn to Him and be saved, and to remain there, but we can still resist that grace. And resisting or not resisting grace is an ongoing battle, as made obvious by the fact that believers still sometimes sin.

 

[Clare73]

No one freely chooses what they are caused to prefer-that's a contradiction, and would necessarily relate to a wholly different "they", or some kind of automaton now.

In the Bible, "free will is the power to choose what one prefers."

How they prefer it has no bearing on the definition.

As long as they are choosing what they prefer, they are exercising free will.

 

[Clare73]

Unless we say, "no", which is what Augustine was getting at. This dynamic, between man's will and God's desire for all men to be saved,

God more than just "desires" it, he enables it for the elect, giving them a preference and desire for it, which they then freely choose.

 

[fhansen]

No, what Augustine was "getting at" is that fallen man does not have the ability

Better re-read that one. And if you've read him much you'll know that he's not always so perfectly in line with the Reformers on certain distinct points.

God more than just "desires" it, he enables it for the elect, giving them a preference and desire for it, which they then freely choose.

He desires it for all.
"The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." 2 Pet 3:9'

“But if a wicked person turns away from all the sins they have committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, that person will surely live; they will not die. None of the offenses they have committed will be remembered against them. Because of the righteous things they have done, they will live. Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign Lord. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?

“But if a righteous person turns from their righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked person does, will they live? None of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness they are guilty of and because of the sins they have committed, they will die. Ez 18:21-25

 

[Clare73]

Better re-read that one. And if you've read him much you'll know that he's not always so perfectly in line with the Reformers on certain distinct points.

He desires it for all.

Yet he does not give it to all,

No one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him (Jn 6:65).
All whom the Father has given me will come to me (Jn 6:37).
I shall lose none of all that he has given me (Jn 6:39).

We must consider the whole counsel of God, not just part of it.

And the whole counsel of God includes his revealed will as well as his secret will (Dt 29:29).

God's revealed will for Pharaoh was, "Let my people go."
But God's secret will was "I will bound him to his hardened heart so that he will not let my people go. (Ex 4:21-23)

 

[fhansen]

We must consider the whole counsel of God, not just part of it.

And the whole counsel of God includes his revealed will as well as his secret will (Dt 29:29).

God's revealed will for Pharaoh was, "Let my people go."
But God's secret will was "I will bound him to his hardened heart so that he will not let my people go. (Ex 4:21-23)

We have to be careful with esoterica such as may result from attempting to describe God's supposedly differing wills. God doesn’t jump through human hoops or necessarily comply with our thoughts but He’s nonetheless sane, not irrational. When we see apparent enigmas in the bible such as stating that Pharaoh hardened his own heart on the one hand but that God hardened it on the other, the best solution is to understand that God used Pharaoh’s hardness for His own greater ultimate purposes-as He did with the jealous and murderous intentions of Joseph’s brothers earlier in Egypt. Similairly, with election, God foreknows who will come to and remain in Him, who will persevere and who will not-those are the elect.

 

[d taylor]

I didn’t say they could have eternal life, my post implied just the opposite, in fact, as James did. And I doubt they could or would repent anyway if it was even possible. But James nonetheless used the example of their faith as one that is fruitless because that is the very point he was MAKING, and which you’re desperately trying to avoid, that faith alone would be WORTHLESS, yes, towards SALVATION as the demon verses follow and flow from that direct question about people in vs 14,
“What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them?”

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You fail to prove that the save James is speaking of in chapter 2, is an eternal life salvation and not a saving of believers in their earthly life.

Because verse 23 shows Jame is not addressing eternal life salvation, but an earthly saving. Where the believer after having believed in Jesus for Eternal Life. Because they put to work their faith becomes a friend of God, showing this chapter 2 is all about fellowship of the born again believer with their Father God.

And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God.

Another example where a born again child of God, faith did not physically save them. Are the believers who got drunk at the celebration of The Lord's supper. Where Paul writes the reason some are sick and some have even fallen asleep (died) is because of their action at the supper.

For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body. For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.

 

[Clare73]

We have to be careful with esoterica such as may result from attempting to describe God's supposedly differing wills.

A low view of the word of God written (in Dt 29:29) is showing. . .

 

[fhansen]

You fail to prove that the save James is speaking of in chapter 2, is an eternal life salvation and not a saving of believers in their earthly life.

Because verse 23 shows Jame is not addressing eternal life salvation, but an earthly saving. Where the believer after having believed in Jesus for Eternal Life. Because they put to work their faith becomes a friend of God, showing this chapter 2 is all about fellowship of the born again believer with their Father God.

And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God.

?? Sounds awfully contrived to be honest. Fellowship with God is our savaltion. That's what reconciliation with Him means. There's a reason that Abraham is our model, as the father of faith, confirmed and completed by what He did as James tells us. And what is this "earthly saving". Another novel notion??

 

[fhansen]

A low view of the word of God written (Dt 29:29) is showing. . .

And that passage says nothing about a secret will, as if He's wants two conflicitng items at once. In fact, it only tells us that some things are hidden, not revealed. IOW, we can't know them.

 

[Clare73]

And that passage says nothing about a secret will, as if He's wants two conflicitng items at once. In fact, it only tells us that some things are hidden, not revealed. IOW, we can't know them.

It is speaking of things revealed and not revealed.

The secret things belong to the Lord (i.e, are not revealed), while the things revealed belong to us.
God's revelation is of his will, some of which will is not revealed, it is a secret.

God's will for Pharaoh was revealed to him, "Let my people go."
God's secret will for Pharaoh was not revealed to him, "I will bound him to his hardened heart so that he will not let them go."

 

[d taylor]

?? Sounds awfully contrived to be honest. Fellowship with God is our savaltion. That's what reconciliation with Him means. There's a reason that Abraham is our model, as the father of faith, confirmed and completed by what He did as James tells us. And what is this "earthly saving". Another novel notion??

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Sure it will to a person who believes in a work salvation. But believers who believe in God's free grace eternal life salvation, know James is not addressing eternal life salvation.

 

[fhansen]

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Sure it will to a person who believes in a work salvation. But believers who believe in God's free grace eternal life salvation, know James is not addressing eternal life salvation.

Hafta do an awful lot of mental gymnastics to make James 2 fit yer theology tho.

 

[fhansen]

It is speaking of things revealed and not revealed.

The secret things belong to the Lord (i.e, are not revealed), while the things revealed belong to us.
God's revelation is of his will, some of which will is not revealed, it is a secret.

God's will for Pharaoh was revealed to him, "Let my people go."
God's secret will for Pharaoh was not revealed to him, "I will bound him to his hardened heart so that he will not let them go."

But you're saying that you know God's "secret will", while Deut says that some things are simply not revealed. Either way, you're trying to squeeze a meaning out of the passage that doesn't fit with Pharaoh's situation to begin with.

 

[d taylor]

Hafta do an awful lot of mental gymnastics to make James 2 fit yer theology tho.

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None at all, Jesus, James master teacher, makes it perfectly clear only belief in Jesus gives a person Eternal Life.
And James would never disagree with Jesus.

And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
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For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
------------------------------
For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
------------------------------
“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is
condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only
begotten Son of God.
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He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
------------------------------
“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
------------------------------
Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him.”
Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
------------------------------
Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believe in Me has everlasting life.
------------------------------
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
She said to Him, “Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”
------------------------------
but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.

 

[fhansen]

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None at all, Jesus, James master teacher, makes it perfectly clear only belief in Jesus gives a person Eternal Life.
And James would never disagree with Jesus.

And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
------------------------------
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
------------------------------
For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
------------------------------
“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is
condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only
begotten Son of God.
------------------------------
He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
------------------------------
“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
------------------------------
Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him.”
Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
------------------------------
Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believe in Me has everlasting life.
------------------------------
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
She said to Him, “Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”
------------------------------
but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.

Of course James would never disagree with Jesus, or Paul, or John, or Peter, et al. And if they ever did they would sit down and iron things out. In any case I can reconcile all your verses with the following becauase I know the role and purpose of faith. I'm not sure that you can do so without more mental gymnastics:, revision, etc

"You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone." James 2:24

"For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven." Matt 5:20

"For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins." Matt 6:14-15

"If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.” Matt 19:17

“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean." Matt 23:25-26

"To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, He will give eternal life." R0m 2:7

"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom 2:13

"But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. " Rom 6:22

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live." Rom 8:12-13

"Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord." Heb 12:14

"The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God." Gal 5:19-21

"Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life." Gal 5:7-8

"He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children. But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.” Rev 21:6-8

“Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood." Rev 22:14-15

 

[d taylor]

Of course James would never disagree with Jesus, or Paul, or John, or Peter, et al. And if they ever did they would sit down and iron things out. In any case I can reconcile all your verses with the following becauase I know the role and purpose of faith. I'm not sure that you can do so without more mental gymnastics:, revision, etc

"You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone." James 2:24

"For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven." Matt 5:20

"For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins." Matt 6:14-15

"If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.” Matt 19:17

“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean." Matt 23:25-26

"To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, He will give eternal life." R0m 2:7

"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom 2:13

"But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. " Rom 6:22

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live." Rom 8:12-13

"Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord." Heb 12:14

"The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God." Gal 5:19-21

"Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life." Gal 5:7-8

"He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children. But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.” Rev 21:6-8

“Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood." Rev 22:14-15

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I never can figure out when i post verses from the Gospel of John, all from the same context addressing receiving God's free gift of Eternal Life salvation by belief in Jesus.

When people who are work based believers as the way to earn salvation. They post verses from different context that are addressing different topics and post these verses all together. As i do verses from John and think they have actually post an counter argument.

When all they have actually done is shown they are fashioning a man created belief that saves no one. Interesting The Gospel of John even has verses addressing this.

You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

Like i have said several times addressing people who believe in a work based salvation. Many know what verses like John 3:16 say, but at the same time. Knowing what the verse says, is not believing what the verse says.

But is is believing which gives eternal life and not knowing.

 

[d taylor]

Of course James would never disagree with Jesus, or Paul, or John, or Peter, et al. And if they ever did they would sit down and iron things out. In any case I can reconcile all your verses with the following becauase I know the role and purpose of faith. I'm not sure that you can do so without more mental gymnastics:, revision, etc

"You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone." James 2:24

"For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven." Matt 5:20

"For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins." Matt 6:14-15

"If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.” Matt 19:17

“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean." Matt 23:25-26

"To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, He will give eternal life." R0m 2:7

"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom 2:13

"But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. " Rom 6:22

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live." Rom 8:12-13

"Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord." Heb 12:14

"The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God." Gal 5:19-21

"Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life." Gal 5:7-8

"He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children. But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.” Rev 21:6-8

“Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood." Rev 22:14-15

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I also believe this has been one of several discussions on this eternal life salvation we have had. So for me i have nothing else to say and will not be replying to anymore of you quoting of my post in this thread or future quoting of post in other threads. As i have written plenty on this eternal life salvation, in this thread and past threads where we have debated this.

I am moving on and closing the door.

 

[fhansen]

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I never can figure out when i post verses from the Gospel of John, all from the same context addressing receiving God's free gift of Eternal Life salvation by belief in Jesus.

When people who are work based believers as the way to earn salvation. They post verses from different context that are addressing different topics and post these verses all together. As i do verses from John and think they have actually post an counter argument.

When all they have actually done is shown they are fashioning a man created belief that saves no one. Interesting The Gospel of John even has verses addressing this.

You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

Like i have said several times addressing people who believe in a work based salvation. Many know what verses like John 3:16 say, but at the same time. Knowing what the verse says, is not believing what the verse says.

But is is believing which gives eternal life and not knowing.

Whatever, just keep finding ways to ignore Scripture you don't like in order to justify your novel more or less anti-gospel, if that’s your preference. And again, it's largely about fully understanding the role and purpose of faith, what it means to believe.