A Collision of Two Christianities

[d taylor]

The free gift is righteousness, that’s why a believer now has eternal life.
“For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ! Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” Rom 5:17-21

“What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.” Rom 6:22

Again, a gospel that separates the need for man to be righteous, walking as a child of God should, from the realization of eternal life, is novel, false, and could only come from the evil one. There’s no question that we’re forgiven. But that’s only meaningful for one who cares, who responds, who turns to Him as a result. That person is washed, cleansed, made new a creation, a slave to righteousness, able to ‘ go, and sin no more’. So what are we going to do with this forgiveness, this grace?

“For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.” Matt 6:14-15

-
​

All believers are a new creation, some or even many may not act like a new creation but they are. Because they have been born again and are now spiritually alive, because they have believed in Jesus and received The Life of God. Because of their belief in Jesus and not because of any single good things they think they have done or are doing.

​

The free gift is eternal life and the believer is declared righteous because they have believed in Jesus. The Person who took away the sin of the world.

Man is never righteous before God. God only sees the believer as righteous because God sees God's righteous life when He looks at the believer.

So you can be as sin free as you think you can, but you are still a dirty sinner.

 

[fhansen]

-
​

All believers are a new creation, some or even many may not act like a new creation but they are. Because they have been born again and are now spiritually alive, because they have believed in Jesus and received The Life of God. Because of their belief in Jesus and not because of any single good things they think they have done or are doing.

​

The free gift is eternal life and the believer is declared righteous because they have believed in Jesus. The Person who took away the sin of the world.

Man is never righteous before God. God only sees the believer as righteous because God sees God's righteous life when He looks at the believer.

So you can be as sin free as you think you can, but you are still a dirty sinner.

So does that mean that a believer should be able to persist in rape, torture, murder and still expect to make it into heaven? Does his behavior make no difference whatsoever since, as you say, he's still a dirty sinner no matter what?

 

[d taylor]

So does that mean that a believer should be able to persist in rape, torture, murder and still expect to make it into heaven? Does his behavior make no difference whatsoever since, as you say, he's still a dirty sinner no matter what?

-
​

A person believes themselves into heaven, they do not behave themselves into heaven.

If God is to show grace to a rapist, murder, liar, cheat, drunk, etc when they believe in Jesus. Who has received God's free gift of Eternal Life, because of their belief and not because of the life they are living.

How is it grace if God only shows grace to sinners who act right. So grace and Life is not available to sinners who can not escape the sin of the world.

A rapist, murder, liar, cheat, drunk, etc who becomes a born again child of God. Will not get off scot-free if they persist in worldly sin. God will punish the born again child who persist in worldly sin. God may judge them and take their earthly life or let their sin bring sickness, jail time, etc...
What is worse murdering a person or lying to the Holy Spirit

But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession. And he kept back part of the proceeds, his wife also being aware of it, and brought a certain part and laid it at the apostles’ feet. But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself? While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.”
Then Ananias, hearing these words, fell down and breathed his last. So great fear came upon all those who heard these things.

 

[RDKirk]

So does that mean that a believer should be able to persist in rape, torture, murder and still expect to make it into heaven? Does his behavior make no difference whatsoever since, as you say, he's still a dirty sinner no matter what?

People who truly believe have a deep intention in their hearts and consciences to do what the Lord wants them to do every day. Whenever they discover that all their actions in the day have not been in accordance with the Lord's intentions for them that day, those people are deeply shamed, remorseful, and repentant, with every intention of being more perfectly obedient the next day.

They don't look for the edges, they don't conjure rationales, they don't make excuses, they don't seek exceptions, and they make sincere efforts to be perfect.

God knows who those people are.

 

[fhansen]

People who truly believe have a deep intention in their hearts and consciences to do what the Lord wants them to do every day. Whenever they discover that all their actions in the day have not been in accordance with the Lord's intentions for them that day, those people are deeply shamed, remorseful, and repentant, with every intention of being more perfectly obedient the next day.

They don't look for the edges, they don't conjure rationales, they don't make excuses, they don't seek exceptions, and they make sincere efforts to be perfect.

God knows who those people are.

So they're not just dirty sinners after all? And they have no choice but to become at least less sinful? And at what point or with what quantity or quality of sin can he now be considered to be a proper believer?

 

[RDKirk]

So they're not just dirty sinners after all? And they have no choice but to become at least less sinful? And at what point or with what quantity or quality of sin can he now be considered to be a proper believer?

They don't look for the edges, they don't conjure rationales, they don't make excuses, they don't seek exceptions, and they make sincere efforts to be perfect.

 

[fhansen]

-
​

A person believes themselves into heaven, they do not behave themselves into heaven.

If God is to show grace to a rapist, murder, liar, cheat, drunk, etc when they believe in Jesus. Who has received God's free gift of Eternal Life, because of their belief and not because of the life they are living.

How is it grace if God only shows grace to sinners who act right. So grace and Life is not available to sinners who can not escape the sin of the world.

A rapist, murder, liar, cheat, drunk, etc who becomes a born again child of God. Will not get off scot-free if they persist in worldly sin. God will punish the born again child who persist in worldly sin. God may judge them and take their earthly life or let their sin bring sickness, jail time, etc...
What is worse murdering a person or lying to the Holy Spirit

But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession. And he kept back part of the proceeds, his wife also being aware of it, and brought a certain part and laid it at the apostles’ feet. But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself? While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.”
Then Ananias, hearing these words, fell down and breathed his last. So great fear came upon all those who heard these things.

So the gospel is a means to remain the way we were before the gospel?And behavior has nothing to do with it? Except for the fact that scripture says otherwise

 

[fhansen]

They don't look for the edges, they don't conjure rationales, they don't make excuses, they don't seek exceptions, and they make sincere efforts to be perfect.

So they just automatically end up doing the right thing no matter what? Meaning that they either acknowledge that they're a sinner but without necessarily changing, which could justify their persisting in rape, torture, murder? Or that they will necessarily change, for the better, by some standard? I'm honestly not sure how this would all work out, or if it could, or if it jives with reality.

 

[RDKirk]

So they just automatically end up doing the right thing no matter what? Meaning that they either acknowledge that they're a sinner but without necessarily changing, which could justify their persisting in rape, torture, murder? Or that they will necessarily change, for the better, by some standard? I'm honestly not sure how this would all work out, or if it could, or if it jives with reality.

What part of "...and they make sincere efforts to be perfect" are you not understanding?

 

[fhansen]

What part of "...and they make sincere efforts to be perfect" are you not understanding?

Well, to make sincere effort is a good thing and consistent with scripture. But does this mean they're guaranteed to succeed? And what level of success in overcoming sin is appropriate or sufficient? Do we have any guidelines?

 

[d taylor]

So the gospel is a means to remain the way we were before the gospel?And behavior has nothing to do with it? Except for the fact that scripture says otherwise

-
​

You really have to ask what the gospel is for and actually there are many gospels because gospel simply means good news.
But the gospel that gives a person God's free gift of Eternal Life is a means to, point a person to Jesus. So they may believe in Jesus for eternal life.

 

[RDKirk]

Well, to make sincere effort is a good thing and consistent with scripture. But does this mean they're guaranteed to succeed? And what level of success in overcoming sin is appropriate or sufficient? Do we have any guidelines?

As someone else has said, "All you can do is all you can do, but all you can do is enough."

But God knows how much is "all you can do," and He can't be bluffed.

 

[fhansen]

As someone else has said, "All you can do is all you can do, but all you can do is enough."

But God knows how much is "all you can do," and He can't be bluffed.

I like that. With His help we can do enough.

 

[RileyG]

As someone else has said, "All you can do is all you can do, but all you can do is enough."

But God knows how much is "all you can do," and He can't be bluffed.

I agree. God cannot be manipulated. He wants us wholly.

 

[JEBofChristTheLord]

A person believes themselves into heaven, they do not behave themselves into heaven.

A person neither believes themselves into Heaven, nor behaves themselves into Heaven. God either takes a person to Heaven, or not.

 

[d taylor]

A person neither believes themselves into Heaven, nor behaves themselves into Heaven. God either takes a person to Heaven, or not.

-
​

God only takes to heaven, people who have believe in Jesus for eternal life. The problem with people who identify as christian and have a problem with belief in Jesus is very conspicuous.

 

[fhansen]

-
​

God only takes to heaven, people who have believe in Jesus for eternal life. The problem with people who identify as christian and have a problem with belief in Jesus is very conspicuous.

Yes, that would be quite strange. Now, if someone believed that faith, alone, wasn’t enough, that would make sense. And that is what James was emphasizing in chap 2 of his letter, that faith without good fruit would be ridiculous, or worthless.

 

[JEBofChristTheLord]

Yes, that would be quite strange. Now, if someone believed that faith, alone, wasn’t enough, that would make sense. And that is what James was emphasizing in chap 2 of his letter, that faith without good fruit would be ridiculous, or worthless.

Yes. And then there those who "invoke" the name of Jesus but do not care what He says, using "interpretations" of themselves or their church to make His words to no effect.

 

[d taylor]

Yes, that would be quite strange. Now, if someone believed that faith, alone, wasn’t enough, that would make sense. And that is what James was emphasizing in chap 2 of his letter, that faith without good fruit would be ridiculous, or worthless.

-
​

Twice in James Chapter 2 we read: “Faith without works is dead” (Jas 2:20, 26). And once we read, “Faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead” (Jas 2:17). Many commentators focus on the word dead. They wrongly think James means that faith without works is not faith. But dead in this context means unprofitable. Note the expression “What does it profit?” at the start of verse 14 and the end of verse 16. Then James says, “Thus also by itself, if it does not have works, is dead/unprofitable” (Jas 2:17).

The rest can be read here What Is Faith Without Works? James 2:17, 20, 26 – Grace Evangelical Society

and more here on this topic Faith Without Works is Dead — James 2:14-17 – Grace Evangelical Society
The KISS Method for James 2 – Grace Evangelical Society - Salvation by a Dead, Spoken-Only Faith – Grace Evangelical Society

 

[RDKirk]

-
​

Twice in James Chapter 2 we read: “Faith without works is dead” (Jas 2:20, 26). And once we read, “Faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead” (Jas 2:17). Many commentators focus on the word dead. They wrongly think James means that faith without works is not faith. But dead in this context means unprofitable. Note the expression “What does it profit?” at the start of verse 14 and the end of verse 16. Then James says, “Thus also by itself, if it does not have works, is dead/unprofitable” (Jas 2:17).

The rest can be read here What Is Faith Without Works? James 2:17, 20, 26 – Grace Evangelical Society

and more here on this topic Faith Without Works is Dead — James 2:14-17 – Grace Evangelical Society
The KISS Method for James 2 – Grace Evangelical Society - Salvation by a Dead, Spoken-Only Faith – Grace Evangelical Society

Faith is profitable, always. If nothing is produced, it is not faith.