A Catholic Sabbath, Sunday.

[SabbathBlessings]

(1) I'm not sure what quoting Catholic documents does for my reasoning (I'm Presbyterian anyway).

The Catholic church claims if you keep Sunday instead of Sabbath, you are following the Catholic church and not scripture.

It is well to remind the Presbyterians, Baptists, Methodists, and all other Christians, that the Bible does not support them anywhere in their observance of Sunday. Sunday is an institution of the Roman Catholic Church, and those who observe the day observe a commandment of the Catholic Church.
—Priest Brady, in an address, reported in the Elizabeth, NJ ‘News’ on March 18, 1903.

Protestants ... accept Sunday rather than Saturday as the day for public worship after the Catholic Church made the change... But the Protestant mind does not seem to realize that ... in observing Sunday, they are accepting the authority of the spokesman for the Church, the pope.
—Our Sunday Visitor, February 5th, 1950.

Q. Have you any other proofs that they(Protestants) are not guided by the Scripture?
A. Yes; so many, that we cannot admit more than a mere specimen into this small work. They reject much that is clearly contained in Scripture, and profess more that is nowhere discoverable in that Divine Book.
Q. Give some examples of both?
A. They should, if the Scripture were their only rule, wash the feet of one another, according to the command of Christ, in the 13th chap. of St. John; —they should keep, not the Sunday, but the Saturday, according to the commandment, "Remember thou keep holy the SABBATH-day;" for this commandment has not, in Scripture, been changed or abrogated;...
—Rev. Stephen Keenan, A Doctrinal Catechism; New York in 1857, page 101 Imprimatuer

Jesus warned us of following man-made rules over the commandments of God quoting right from the Ten Commandments Matthew 15:3-9

(2) The weekly Sabbath had sacrifices as well (Num 28:9-10). At this point it seems you might be cherry picking which rules regarding the Sabbath are applicable. In fact, based on Lev 23 it appears that there are Sabbath days you don't even observe at all. Besides, if we're now only to go by what Adam was commanded in the Garden, he was not commanded to conduct a "holy convocation," nor was he commanded to even "rest" on the 7th day.

So I'm seeing some inconsistency here in which rules are being applied and how the rules are being applied.



I would disagree with that interpretation of the Temple system.

There is no animal sacrifices in the Ten Commandments - read Exodus 20. Animal sacrifices came after the fall man, the commandments is what points out sin. Romans 7:7 1 John 3:4. Animal sacrifices ended Col 2:14, Hebrews 10:1-10 when Jesus became our Sacrificial Lamb for the forgiveness of sin when we have a change in heart and repent from our sins (breaking God’s laws and turn from sin and walking with Christ in obedience. Acts 2:38, John 14:15 In the OC there were daily sacrifices for sins, including on the Sabbath because people sinned daily. It’s the equivalent to praying to Jesus for our sins on the Sabbath, something we should do.

 

[Yekcidmij]

There is no animal sacrifices in the Ten Commandments - read Exodus 20.

Yet animal sacrifices are commanded for the Sabbath in Num 28. And it's clearly the weekly Sabbath there. So, on your view, it would have to be the case that some rules regarding the sabbath are now...cancelled? Exceptions to the rules?

In the OC there were daily sacrifices for sins, including on the Sabbath because people sinned daily. It’s the equivalent to praying to Jesus for our sins on the Sabbath, something we should do.

Ok, so some Sabbath rules (and even some Sabbath days), but not all of them, are to be understood in light of Jesus' death and resurrection. It looks obviously inconsistent to me. Besides, were all the Sabbath offerings in Num 28 for sin? I see grain offerings and drink offerings included in Num 28 - which were not for remission of sins. It just seems like if you're interpreting (or cherry picking) some Sabbath rules in light of Jesus death and resurrection, then what's sauce for the goose can be sauce for the gander, so to say.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Yet animal sacrifices are commanded for the Sabbath in Num 28. And it's clearly the weekly Sabbath there. So, on your view, it would have to be the case that some rules regarding the sabbath are now...cancelled? Exceptions to the rules?

Please quote in the Ten Commandments where we are to have animal sacrifices?

As the scriptures states there was daily sacrifices including on the Sabbath, because people sinned daily. Instead of animal sacrifices we go directly to Jesus now who became our sacrifice for sins. You will see all throughout the NT people kept the Sabbath without having animal sacrifices. Sacrifices were for the forgiveness of sin when we break God’s law. The Sabbath is part of God’s law and James says if you break one you break them all quoting directly from the Ten Commandments. James 2:10-12 and Paul points to the Ten Commandments to define sin Romans 7:7

Ok, so some Sabbath rules, but not all of them (and not even all Sabbath days), are to be understood in light of Jesus' death and resurrection. Besides, were all the Sabbath offerings in Num 28 for sin? I see grain offerings and drink offerings included in Num 28 - which were not for remission of sins. It just seems like if you're interpreting or cherry picking Sabbath rules in light of Jesus death and resurrection, then what's sauce for the goose can be sauce for the gander, so to say.

No just following scripture which is not too hard. . . We no longer sacrifice animals because the blood of Jesus is perfect to cleanse us of all sins- sin is still defined as breaking God’s law 1 John 3:4 and again Paul points right to the Ten Commandments to define sin. Romans 7:7

 

[Yekcidmij]

Please quote in the Ten Commandments where we are to have animal sacrifices?

I think it's established at this point that on your view, only some rules regarding the Sabbath are applicable. There are exceptions on your view.

As the scriptures states there was daily sacrifices including on the Sabbath, because people sinned daily. Instead of animal sacrifices we go directly to Jesus now who became our sacrifice for sins.

The drink offering and the grain offering were not for sin, nor were they even animals. Both of these were Sabbath specified offerings in Num 28.

So far on your view it looks like only some Sabbath days are followed, only select rules are followed, and only some holy convocations are convened. Other days and rules are excepted and interpreted in light of Jesus' death and resurrection. Ok, all fine and well, but when the OP applies this method, it's wrong? Seems like what's sauce of the goose can be sauce for the gander.

 

[YeshuaFollower]

The Catholic Church teaches that the Sabbath, the seventh day of the week, should be kept holy as a day of rest and worship. This belief is based on the account in the Book of Genesis that states that God rested on the seventh day after creating the world (Genesis 2:2-3). The Ten Commandments also state that the Sabbath is to be kept holy (Exodus 20:8-11).

The Catholic Church also teaches that the Sabbath is a foreshadowing of the eternal rest that believers will enjoy in heaven (Hebrews 4:9-11). Additionally, Jesus himself and his followers are recorded as observing the Sabbath in the gospels (Luke 4:16, Mark 2:27, Luke 6:6-11).

However, the Catholic Church also teaches that the Sabbath laws were fulfilled by Jesus and that Christians are not bound by the strict observance of the Sabbath as it was understood in the Old Testament. Instead, Sunday, the day of the Lord's resurrection, is observed as the Christian Sabbath. This is based on scriptural passages such as Colossians 2:16-17, which state that Christ's death and resurrection fulfilled the requirements of the Sabbath and other Jewish holidays.

In summary, the Catholic Church teaches that the Sabbath is a day to be kept holy, but that the Sabbath laws have been fulfilled by Jesus and Sunday is observed as the Christian Sabbath.

Hi Xeno, I have a question not related to this post, did you ever visit the vatican?

thanks,

JFF

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I think it's established at this point that on your view, only some rules regarding the Sabbath are applicable. There are exceptions on your view.

That did not answer the question.

The drink offering and the grain offering were not for sin, nor were they even animals. Both of these were Sabbath specified offerings in Num 28.

Not sure I understand the point you are making. The Sabbath is defined here Exodus 20:8-11 if you you read you will see clearly there is no grain offerings or animals sacrifices, this all happened after the fall of man.

So far on your view it looks like only some Sabbath days are followed,

Just the ones God tells us. There is no scripture that says any of God’s commandments ended, in contrast the annuals sabbath(s) feast ordinances found in the law of Moses did end at the cross Col 2:14 because Jesus became our sacrifice for sins. There is more than one Sabbath in scripture and I’ll be happy to share what these differences are through scripture if interested, just let me know. Do you sacrifice animals today for the forgiveness of sins or is the blood of Christ sufficient to cleanse and forgive all sins?

only select rules are followed, and only some holy convocations are convened. Other days and rules are excepted and interpreted in light of Jesus' death and resurrection. Ok, all fine and well, but when the OP applies this method, it's wrong? Seems like what's sauce of the goose can be sauce for the gander.

You seem to be injecting your opinion instead of following the scripture, if you have a point you want to make through scripture please share.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Hi Xeno, I have a question not related to this post, did you ever visit the vatican?

thanks,

JFF

no.

 

[BobRyan]

You are the one that brought up Lev 23.

Lev 23:3 speaks directly the weekly Sabbath -- which is the topic of this thread

3 ‘For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there is a Sabbath of complete rest, a holy convocation. You shall not do any work; it is a Sabbath to the LORD (YHWH) in all your dwellings.

feel free to bring up whatever weekly Sabbath texts - that you wish.

Here we notice -- no animal sacrifices listed for the 7th day Sabbath - nor ceremonial offerings.

Maybe stay on topic next time I guess?

sounds like a good idea.

Ok, so some of the holy convocations and appointed times in Lev 23 have theological exceptions from observing them- in fact, all but one of them do.

No doubt the non-weekly Sabbath (annual feast days) have a lot of interesting details surrounding them. Care to start a thread on that topic?

(1) I'm not sure what quoting Catholic documents does for my reasoning (I'm Presbyterian anyway).

That is understandable but the title of the thread is "a Catholic Sabbath Sunday" so I think it is pretty obvious why I would quote Catholic sources to make a point in that context -- even though I am about as far from Catholic as one can get.

(2) The weekly Sabbath had sacrifices as well (Num 28:9-10).

Well not before Sinai, not in the Is 66:23 New Earth for all eternity after the cross and not in Gen 2:1-4 when it was made a holy day.

At this point it seems you might be cherry picking which rules regarding the Sabbath are applicable.

Not true at all - I am being entirely consistent.

In fact, based on Lev 23 it appears that there are Sabbath days you don't even observe at all.

hmm -- I assume you are back to your "annuals feast days" topic... you really need a thread for that.

Nobody here is arguing that annual feast days were "made for mankind" Mark 2:27 -- that is not even a text of scripture.

Besides, if we're now only to go by what Adam was commanded in the Garden, he was not commanded to conduct a "holy convocation,"

There was only Adam and Eve so any time the two of them talked or met for worship that would be "holy convocation". Is this helping your argument in some way?

nor was he commanded to even "rest" on the 7th day.

Ex 20:8-11 says that the rest on the 7th day is dictated by the Gen 2:1-3 fact alone.

So details matter.

But I gather that you are opposing a lot of Christian scholarship in your view at this point -- not just the Catholic affirmation of the Sabbath as one of the TEN - where the TEN apply to mankind not just Jews. (And when we include D. James Kennedy then it appears to also including your own denomination)

Almost every Christian denomination on Earth affirms the continued *"unit of TEN"

[*]The Baptist Confession of Faith section 19
[*]The Westminster Confession of Faith section 19
[*]Voddie Baucham
[*]C.H. Spurgeon
[*]D.L. Moody
[*]Dies Domini by Pope John Paul II
[*] D. James Kennedy


And since you say that the Presbyterian POV is of interest to you

D. James Kennedy - Wikipedia
" senior pastor of Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church in Fort Lauderdale, Florida, from 1960 until his death in 2007"

Summary of Dr. D James Kennedy's points from the Nov 4, 2001 message on Sabbath

• The 10 commandments still exist.
• The 10 commandments define sin - we all sin each day when we break them.
• The 10 commandments are the Law of God
• Man is not saved by keeping God's Law perfectly since all have sinned - broken the Law of God.
• The Sabbath is the fourth commandment.
• The Sabbath commandment applies to Christians (and all mankind) - not simply Jews. It is a gift of Rest, a blessing to mankind. A day of worship, Christian fellowship and rest.
• God's Sabbath remains in force today
• The Sabbath is also called "The Lord's Day"

Manna and the Sabbath - The Timeless Works of D. James Kennedy​

. The Sabbath day is a “day of sacred assembly,” according to Leviticus 23:3 (niv). As much as is possible, we should set aside the Lord’s day for worship and for rest.​

I don't think Kennedy's points are all that far from the Catholic POV stated here since he too would edit the Sabbath to point it to week-day-1 sometime in the NT age.

 

[BobRyan]

So far on your view it looks like only some Sabbath days are followed, only select rules are followed, and only some holy convocations are convened. Other days and rules are excepted

Consider "context" and also "the weekly Sabbath" as our topic in this thread.
Also consider that your own D.James Kennedy seem to be in agreement with the main Sabbath points in the OP of this thread.

 

[BobRyan]

The Faith Explained is a book written by one man and as such reflects his views - most or possibly all of which are likely consistent with Catholic Church teaching

In fact it is stated to be a reference book for Catholic homes and teaching institutions.

Since his book includes the Catholic "Imprimatur" - I believe it is far to say that it is "A Catholic point of view " or maybe we can say "A point of view of a well published Catholic".

As opposed to "my personal POV".

But more to the point - you are responding to this statement in my post

I think you would agree with me that a great many denominations now days tend to affirm the acts 17:11 principle of "sola scriptura" testing of all doctrine and tradition - as did Christ in Mark 7:6-13 for example. And as we see from your own "Faith Explained" document below , one who insists on Bible endorsement of all doctrine - is in a self-conflicted position if they reject the Sabbath commandment in its unedited form, and begin claiming that Sabbath is now week day 1. (No matter whose Sabbath you want it to be since even the Catholic answer to the question "what is the Sabbath Commandment" still quotes Ex 20:8-11 as you and I both know)

In that post - I point out that the Catholic POV expressed in that Catholic document/text points to a flaw in the argument of non-Catholic sola scriptura groups who claim to believe nothing but what they find in the Bible- yet will edit the Sabbath based on the say-so of the RCC.

As a member of one of those non-Catholic sola-scriptura groups that does not want to be caught in such a self-conflicted position - I simply choose to avoid that problem altogether by not editing God's Word, not even the Sabbath Commandment.

Clearly I do find that the logical argument made in that Catholic text to be compelling - and since it is a sound argument, and since I would be the one "At risk" given that sound argument, I choose not be in such a self-conflicted position.

 

[Yekcidmij]

Lev 23:3 speaks directly the weekly Sabbath -- which is the topic of this thread

Any passage must be considered in context, starting with its immediate context. If you want to bring up a verse, and then ignore the surrounding context, that's up to you. It's pretty bad hermeneutics, but you can do it if you wish.

3 ‘For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there is a Sabbath of complete rest, a holy convocation. You shall not do any work; it is a Sabbath to the LORD (YHWH) in all your dwellings.

feel free to bring up whatever weekly Sabbath texts - that you wish.

Here we notice -- no animal sacrifices listed for the 7th day Sabbath - nor ceremonial offerings.

I already know you'll ignore the Sabbath sacrifices in Num 28. That's up to you.

hmm -- I assume you are back to your "annuals feast days" topic... you really need a thread for that.

I remind you that you brought up Lev 23, not me.

But I gather that you are opposing a lot of Christian scholarship in your view at this point

If that's what you want to think.

-- not just the Catholic affirmation of the Sabbath as one of the TEN - where the TEN apply to mankind not just Jews.

I accept the ten, including the ten listed in Ex 34. I already know you arbitrarily select which list of ten commands to follow and apply different rules to different lists.

And since you say that the Presbyterian POV is of interest to you

D. James Kennedy - Wikipedia
" senior pastor of Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church in Fort Lauderdale, Florida, from 1960 until his death in 2007"

DJ Kennedy is welcome to join the thread and discuss with me if he wants

Summary of Dr. D James Kennedy's points from the Nov 4, 2001 message on Sabbath

• The 10 commandments still exist.
• The 10 commandments define sin - we all sin each day when we break them.
• The 10 commandments are the Law of God
• Man is not saved by keeping God's Law perfectly since all have sinned - broken the Law of God.
• The Sabbath is the fourth commandment.
• The Sabbath commandment applies to Christians (and all mankind) - not simply Jews. It is a gift of Rest, a blessing to mankind. A day of worship, Christian fellowship and rest.
• God's Sabbath remains in force today
• The Sabbath is also called "The Lord's Day"

So not having read DJ Kennedy (I'm not quite sure why I should just accept him as a final authority either since that's not how Presbyterianism or Calvinism work, but feel free to explain), that last bullet makes it look like he thinks the Sabbath is Sunday (which I would disagree with). Can you articulate his position and reasons? I'll discuss his positions and reasons if you want, but I'm not familiar with what he says, though it looks like you must be familiar with his view (and aren't quote mining at all) so you'll have to take his side for the sake of discussion.

More convincing to me than naked appeals to authority, which are completely unpersuasive to me, are the reasons for stated positions.

 

[Yekcidmij]

Consider "context" and also "the weekly Sabbath" as our topic in this thread.
Also consider that your own D.James Kennedy seem to be in agreement with the main Sabbath points in the OP of this thread.

This fixation on DJ Kennedy is interesting. I must have missed something. Is he the Presbyterian Pope? I'm not sure why he's the final authority on these matters,, but I'll hear your explanation on why you think he should be such a thing in Presbyterianism. Also feel free to articulate DJ Kennedy's position and reasons and we can discuss rather than making blanket vague statements about what he does or doesn't agree with. I simply have no reason to accept your assertions without further explanation.

I'll just be up front though. I think you're quote mining. I think you have theological priors on the table and think there is some connection between "Presbyterianism" and the Roman Catholic Church, am I correct? Those are your business I suppose, but it will be interesting to observe you connect all these dots (and it looks like it has something to do with DJ Kennedy, though he has no particular connection to me as far as I can tell)

 

[Yekcidmij]

[*]The Baptist Confession of Faith section 19

I grew up Baptist, so I'm curious about this one. Which confession are you referring to? The London Bapist Confession doesn't mention sabbath in section 19. The BFM 2000 (the current SBC confession) doesn't have a section 19.

 

[BobRyan]

I accept the ten, including the ten listed in Ex 34. I already know you arbitrarily select which list of ten commands to follow and apply different rules to different lists.

Too many details missing in your snippet references.

Exodus 20 – God speaks the TEN Commandments

Ex 24 – God writes the TEN Commandments that were spoken directly to the people

Ex 34:1 God said “I Will write the same words that were on the first set of stones” on the second set of stones after the first ones were broken by Moses

Deut 4:12 – (forty years later) God reminds them of the TEN – SPOKEN directly to the people from the midst of the fire and these are what is written on stone even 40 years later

Deut 5:2,22 the words spoken to the People directly by God – are the words on Stone – 40 years later

=============

But this thread is not about two stone tablets having different writing even though God said it was the same words... (as much as that topic seems to interest some folks).

The group of Catholic and non-Catholic denominations (including D.J. Kennedy's comments) do not get caught in that rabbit trail.

 

[BobRyan]

I grew up Baptist, so I'm curious about this one. Which confession are you referring to? The London Bapist Confession doesn't mention sabbath in section 19. The BFM 2000 (the current SBC confession) doesn't have a section 19.

I am curious how you missed it since C.H. Spurgeon expanded on it in the 1800's and it still has that section 19. LBC has it, saying that ALL TEN of the TEN Commandments were given in EDEN and apply to all mankind.

The number "ten" is instructive

The 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith (with Modern Features)

The Most Readable and Accessible Online Version of the Historic Reformed Baptist Confession

1689londonbaptistconfession.com

London LBC Chapter 19

1. God gave to Adam a law of universal obedience written in his heart, and a particular precept of not eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil; 1 by which he bound him and all his posterity to personal, entire, exact, and perpetual obedience; 2 promised life upon the fulfilling, and threatened death upon the breach of it, and endued him with power and ability to keep it.

1. Genesis 1:27; Ecclesiastes 7:292. Romans 10:5​

3. Galatians 3:10, 12​

2. The same law that was first written in the heart of man continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the fall, and was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai, in ten commandments, and written in two tables, the four first containing our duty towards God, and the other six, our duty to man. 4. Romans 2:14-155. Deuteronomy 10:4

===================

As for C.H. Spurgeon's version --

The Baptist Confession of Faith (1689)

1. God gave to Adam a law of universal obedience which was written in his heart, and He gave him very specific instruction about not eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. By this Adam and all his descendants were bound to personal, total, exact, and perpetual obedience, being promised life upon the fulfilling of the law, and threatened with death upon the breach of it. At the same time Adam was endued with power and ability to keep it.
   
   
2. The same law that was first written in the heart of man continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the Fall, and was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai in the ten commandments, and written in two tables, the first four containing our duty towards God, and the other six, our duty to man.
   
   
3. Besides this law, commonly called the moral law, God was pleased do give the people of Israel ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances. These ordinances were partly about their worship, and in them Christ was prefigured along with His attributes and qualities, His actions, His sufferings and His benefits. These ordinances also gave instructions about different moral duties. All of these ceremonial laws were appointed only until the time of reformation, when Jesus Christ the true Messiah and the only lawgiver, Who was furnished with power from the Father for this end, cancelled them and took them away.
   
   
4. To the people of Israel He also gave sundry judicial laws which expired when they ceased to be a nation. These are not binding on anyone now by virtue of their being part of the laws of that nation, but their general equity continue to be applicable in modern times.
   
   
5. The moral law ever binds to obedience everyone, justified people as well as others, and not only out of regard for the matter contained in it, but also out of respect for the authority of God the Creator, Who gave the law. Nor does Christ in the Gospel dissolve this law in any way, but He considerably strengthens our obligation to obey it.

 

[Yekcidmij]

I am curious how you missed it since C.H. Spurgeon expanded on it in the 1800's and it still has that section 19. LBC has it, saying that ALL TEN of the TEN Commandments were given in EDEN and apply to all mankind.

The number "ten" is instructive

The 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith (with Modern Features)

The Most Readable and Accessible Online Version of the Historic Reformed Baptist Confession

1689londonbaptistconfession.com

The LBC 1689 mentions sabbath in section 22, fwiw.

 

[BobRyan]

This fixation on DJ Kennedy is interesting. I must have missed something. Is he the Presbyterian

He is indeed Presbyterian.

You have free will of course and can differ with Presbyterian, Baptist, all the Confessions of Faith - Catholics .. anyone you wish.

I don't mind that.

But the objective unbiased readers are going to find this "instructive" I can tell you that.

 

[BobRyan]

The LBC 1689 mentions sabbath in section 22, fwiw.

Sadly - the section 19 you are avoiding is the one telling us all ten of the TEN commandments were "Written on the heart" for Adam and Eve in Eden, .. are included in the moral law of God... and ever bind all of mankind - not just the lost.

Details matter. Even when they are skipped over.

I know you have to agree that we all must be enjoying this following quote. I suppose we have you to thank for asking for it.

London LBC Chapter 19

1. God gave to Adam a law of universal obedience written in his heart, and a particular precept of not eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil; 1 by which he bound him and all his posterity to personal, entire, exact, and perpetual obedience; 2 promised life upon the fulfilling, and threatened death upon the breach of it, and endued him with power and ability to keep it.

1. Genesis 1:27; Ecclesiastes 7:292. Romans 10:5​

3. Galatians 3:10, 12​

2. The same law that was first written in the heart of man continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the fall, and was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai, in ten commandments, and written in two tables, the four first containing our duty towards God, and the other six, our duty to man. 4. Romans 2:14-155. Deuteronomy 10:4

===================

As for C.H. Spurgeon's version --

The Baptist Confession of Faith (1689)

1. God gave to Adam a law of universal obedience which was written in his heart, and He gave him very specific instruction about not eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. By this Adam and all his descendants were bound to personal, total, exact, and perpetual obedience, being promised life upon the fulfilling of the law, and threatened with death upon the breach of it. At the same time Adam was endued with power and ability to keep it.
   
   
2. The same law that was first written in the heart of man continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the Fall, and was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai in the ten commandments, and written in two tables, the first four containing our duty towards God, and the other six, our duty to man.
   
   
3. Besides this law, commonly called the moral law, God was pleased do give the people of Israel ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances. These ordinances were partly about their worship, and in them Christ was prefigured along with His attributes and qualities, His actions, His sufferings and His benefits. These ordinances also gave instructions about different moral duties. All of these ceremonial laws were appointed only until the time of reformation, when Jesus Christ the true Messiah and the only lawgiver, Who was furnished with power from the Father for this end, cancelled them and took them away.
   
   
4. To the people of Israel He also gave sundry judicial laws which expired when they ceased to be a nation. These are not binding on anyone now by virtue of their being part of the laws of that nation, but their general equity continue to be applicable in modern times.
   
   
5. The moral law ever binds to obedience everyone, justified people as well as others, and not only out of regard for the matter contained in it, but also out of respect for the authority of God the Creator, Who gave the law. Nor does Christ in the Gospel dissolve this law in any way, but He considerably strengthens our obligation to obey it.

 

[Yekcidmij]

He is indeed Presbyterian.

How do you think authority works in Presbyterian churches? I don't recall DJ Kennedy being on the throne at the top.

 

[BobRyan]

I think you have theological priors on the table and think there is some connection between "Presbyterianism" and the Roman Catholic Church, am I correct?

?????

what in the world are you talking about?

I will give you a hint - paying attention to the actual details in these posts is the only way for you to solve your problem with the facts at this point.

IF you are looking for a back door "out" - you won't find it. WYSIWYG as they say.