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6 Biblical Reasons Why Jesus Made Unfermented Wine (Grape Juice).

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Bible Highlighter, Nov 1, 2017.

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  1. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    I agree. That is what I believe everyone else is doing here because they do not understand that the word "wine" can either refer to fermented wine or unfermented wine. This is confirmed, by Dictionary.com, older dictionaries, an ad by Dr. Welch, the Talmud, and other ancient historical documents. So when people say "wine" always mean "alcholic wine" I try to fight not to sigh or roll my eyes. For they obviously have not studied the topic or did any kind of deep research to see whether it is true or not. They want the wine in John 2 to be alcoholic because that is what their preconceived notions say and that is what they want to be true because they like wine or they have fond memories of wine.
     
  2. Almost there

    Almost there Well-Known Member

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    No. They understand it. Most of them quite well, actually. They just disagree that it was grape juice in the cases it came up in the NT.

    It's one of those "new controversies" that were never really controversial. Don't get me wrong. There are "new controversies" that were always controversial but simply forced into silence before the internet, such as the ECTCI debate, but this one is about trying to change the plain meaning of scripture in both modern translations and the original greek. Kind of like the ever virgin mary thing.
     
  3. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Verses please. Your pastor is wrong. I would love to challenge his story and even talk to him (if he is willing). I have argued this topic numerous times. I have argued it for approximately 70 pages on another thread and about the same on another one, too. I have deeply studied the topic. Scripture is heavily in support of Jesus making unfermented wine and not fermented wine.
     
  4. Ken Rank

    Ken Rank Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I can go over each and every one of them but you have made it clear... YOU have studied this, thus YOU are correct. No need for me to waste any more time.
     
  5. Almost there

    Almost there Well-Known Member

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    For the sake of the weaker brothers that may be here, I'm going to back out. I've probably said too much already. I'm going to invoke Romans 14 here. Let each one of us decide in his own mind and live by it.
     
  6. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Actually, not really. I used to believe as you and others commonly believe who did not do a deep study on this topic. I believed once that it was alcoholic wine but it troubled me. I thought there had to be an explanation where Jesus was innocent in doing this if it was alcoholic wine. But see... that is just it. There is no explanation you can give to defend Jesus making alcoholic wine that would add to the supposedly drunken party at the wedding. The Bible is clear that drunkenness is a sin. So if the people were "...well drunk...." of the good wine (John 2:10), then Jesus adding more intoxicating wine to their drunkenness would have been a sin on His part. But we know that Scripture says that Jesus did not sin. So this means that Jesus did not contribute to their drunkened state (by making more intoxicating wine).
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2017
  7. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    I disagree. You have argued that Jesus couldn't have done thus or so because that would show bad judgement or be flatly unacceptable. That is to limit Jesus's actions, even though we know that he didn't follow convention on many occasions.

    Welch may have said that--I'm sure you are right about that. It's because he wanted to sell grape juice to the churches! This is a known fact. The campaign was, in fact, remarkably successful. But Bible scholars and historians--not grape juice manufacturers and sellers--have overwhelmingly contended that it was real wine, if no doubt watered down. So are we to believe the story told by the grape juice salesman or the explanation given by experts?
     
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  8. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Not at all. There are others who agree with me and what those historical documents say. My position lines up with the Bible and morality. This is something that you cannot say is true for your position. So I challenge you to look at the verses. I challenge you to do some digging to see if there are people in history that talked about the preservation of grape juice and who used the word "wine" in reference to grape juice. If not, then you will see what you will have always seen.
     
  9. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Then you disagree with our dictionaries and historical documents and the Bible on this topic.

    Let me ask you a few questions.

    Do you believe the people at the wedding party were drunk or close to it?
    Do you believe that drunkenness is a sin?
    If Jesus made intoxicating wine and the wedding party was "...well drunk..." of the good wine (John 2:10), then how could they not be drunk when Jesus gave of them even more intoxicating wine? Think about it.
     
  10. Almost there

    Almost there Well-Known Member

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    I have to confess that when I moved into dry central KY six years ago, whenever one of the local tea totalling Baptists went on a bit of a rant about the evils of alcohol, when they were done, I'd ask them, "So, are you Mormon, or are you muslim". It always got me some funny looks and was often a great conversation starter. :)
     
  11. Radagast

    Radagast comes and goes Supporter

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    The Greek word oinos means "wine." As in fermented. As in alcoholic. The word is used so much that there's no doubt.

    And since yeast grows on the skin of grapes, they start to ferment as soon as you crush them.
     
  12. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    Indeed I don't. But you are working from weaker evidence (such as what Welch himself, who stood to make money if churches switched to grape juice, said). There is plenty of evidence available to you from all sorts of Christian research organizations and from historians that attest to the kind of wine used at Cana in that time period.

    Some most likely were. But we do not know that all of them were. That would be quite an unwarranted assumption that we would have no reason to make.

    I've thought about it and what I wrote just above here puts your concerns to rest if you care to consider it. In any case, what Jesus did Jesus had a right to do. And what Jesus did is what the Bible says he did. What's more, what he did, even if unconventional or contrary to the practice of the Hebrew leaders, is nothing more than he did repeatedly during his adult life. You should know this.
     
  13. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    That is like saying that the Trinity is false because Catholics believe in it. So truth is not determined by guilt by association always.

    By the way, I am not a Prohibitionist. I am an Abstentionist. I believe certain Christians (not all) can drink soberly and responsibly (i.e. a glass or two with a meal) in the privacy of their own home so as not to make their brother to stumble. But I caution strongly against drinking for Christians because of the knowledge that I have about alcohol. For me, drinking alcohol would be a sin because my conscience would condemn me. But for others, who do not have my knowledge on the destructive nature of alcohol can most certainly drink it. Note: This is not in reference for medical reasons like with Paul telling us that we can drink a little wine for the infirmities of our stomachs. I am talking about social drinking (a glass or two) with a meal amongst brothers who would not not be offended.
     
  14. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    No. You are not following through with the logic of the truth here. I will ask you again.

    Do you believe that drunkenness is a sin?
    If Jesus made intoxicating wine and the wedding party was "...well drunk..." of the good wine (John 2:10), then how could they not be drunk when Jesus gave of them even more intoxicating wine?

    Please answer these questions please.
     
  15. Ken Rank

    Ken Rank Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Right, your position is from the bible and mine is from satan. And morality? Whose, yours? The language says wine... you can't get passed that alone. All of your conclusions have been built from a faulty premise... the Word says fermented. That's it, Jason... what you do with that is between you and God not you and me. I don't care, this isn't a salvation issue and shouldn't be cause for division UNLESS you believe that everything you believe needs to be accepted? I doubt... I hope that isn't the case...

    Moving on...
    Ken
     
  16. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

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    On top of what's been said, the oldest churches, east and west, have continued the practice of using wine for the Eucharist from the beginning, following Jesus' practice at the Last Supper.
     
  17. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    Jason, Jesus made wine, probably wine that was cut with water. That's all there is to this. If you think he did wrong, just say that.
     
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  18. Ken Rank

    Ken Rank Well-Known Member Supporter

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    As has the Jews... this is a practice that goes back long before Yeshua walked the earth. I have attended a synagogue a number of times and they do a weekly blessing (not a communion though it kind of looks like it) and they use wine. Why? Because that is what the language states... it was fermented, it just was. Saying it wasn't comes from being raised in or indoctrinated into a denomination that forbids alcohol. Which is FINE if that is what they want to do... but it does create a bias through which the Scripture is read.
     
  19. Radagast

    Radagast comes and goes Supporter

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    Well, for one thing, the adult human liver gets rid of one standard drink's worth of alcohol each hour.

    For another, the MC would have been working to keep the level of intoxication at the party to a mild level.
     
  20. Almost there

    Almost there Well-Known Member

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    I have to agree with you on that first paragraph. I changed my belief regarding hell to what one may find on this site: Jewishnotgreek.com

    And a lot of people try to do the guilt by association thing, trying to lump me in with JW and SDA, at which point I point out that I was nice enough to not lump them in with Muslims. ;)

    However, my comment about Mormons and Muslims is always said with a bit of a wink to get the conversation started. It's not said "dryly" as it may come across here. :)
     
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