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6 Biblical Reasons Why Jesus Made Unfermented Wine (Grape Juice).

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Bible Highlighter, Nov 1, 2017.

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  1. Radagast

    Radagast comes and goes Supporter

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    Another way of defining the intoxication spectrum is:
    1. jocose
    2. verbose
    3. morose
    4. bellicose
    5. lachrymose
    6. comatose
    The MC's job was to keep the party at stage 1 or 2. He would have failed in his task if anybody had gotten as far as stage 3.
     
  2. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    But the common perception that people like myself grew up with was that the people actually were drunk, this discussion here not withstanding. Teachers taught that. This doesn't mean your speculation is wrong, but still....

    Very well, but I understood you to say that they used the wording they did in order to avoid scandal. That suggests a deliberate decision to mistranslate.

    Yes, I was thinking that this issue we're discussing is a side issue and not critical to the real point the thread started with.

    Yeh. That's kinda what I was thinking, after having read what I could elsewhere about this.
     
  3. Goatee

    Goatee Jesus, please forgive me, a sinner.

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    Does the OP drink alcohol? I bet he doesn't.
     
  4. Radagast

    Radagast comes and goes Supporter

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    "Mistranslate" is a bit harsh. Let's just say their view of what took place coloured their translation choices. To say "having drunk freely" is not, I think, the best translation, but it isn't wrong.
     
  5. chilehed

    chilehed Veteran

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    This is total, unadulterated nonsense, and you believe it only because you were told so by some Bible-twisting ignoramus you were taught to trust. When the Bible talks about wine, it means wine: the fermented juice of grapes. There's not a single shred of evidence to support the absurd notion that Passover wine was unfermented, and indeed there are mountains of evidence to the contrary. For example, ancient amphorae of Passover wine from Italy that have residue of top-shelf fermented wine; we're not talking Mad Dog, we're talking Brunello di Montalcino.

    Try telling a group of Orthodox Rabbis that Passover wine was really unfermented grape juice, and you'll get laughed out of the room.
     
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  6. Goatee

    Goatee Jesus, please forgive me, a sinner.

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    Can you imagine Jesus sitting there thinking that He had better make non - alcoholic wine?

    No, neither can I.
     
  7. Goatee

    Goatee Jesus, please forgive me, a sinner.

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    1 Timothy 5:23
    23 No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments.
     
  8. Tetra

    Tetra Well-Known Member

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    Wine is awesome, but I prefer beer. My favorite is craft beer from Ontario, specifically Wellington SPA. I could never really get into the "commercial" stuff, just tastes like crap to me.
     
  9. Ken Rank

    Ken Rank Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Jason.. you know I have respect for you but you are imposing your own theology onto the text. The language says fermented, the examples throughout this thread show fermented... our messiah drank "wine" not grape juice. That doesn't mean you need to drink it, it simply means he did and since he did it isn't an issue. What is the issue is drunkenness, not remaining sober. We are repeatedly warned to remain sober, to have your senses intact, but we are not warned against wine. The only other warning given is to not allow what we do to cause another to stumble. But if I had a glass of wine and a brother saw me drink it... it is our religious CULTURE that has created the taboo environment that says what I am doing is wrong, not the bible.
     
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  10. WannaWitness

    WannaWitness Shining God's Light for a Lost World.

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    deleted post
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2017
  11. Barney

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    No, the wine wasn't normally mixed with water. That's stupid. 1 Timothy 5:23 doesn't mention mixing water with wine. Even if it did, it's an exceptional circumstance, not a general circumstance. No one calls watered-down wine good. The Bible calls water-down wine a curse.

    Am I the only one here who has read the Bible?
     
  12. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    Sorry, but that is a fact attested to by just about every historian of the period and every Bible commentator. It may seem illogical to a modern-day person, but there were reasons (some of which have been mentioned in the course of this thread).
     
  13. Ken Rank

    Ken Rank Well-Known Member Supporter

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    There is the idea of watered down wine in Scripture (Isaiah 1:22 comes to mind... and that for particular reasons) but the fact remains.... watered down or not, the debate here is fermented or not and enough folks have proven fermented in this thread I don't need to repeat the verses.
     
  14. dms1972

    dms1972 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    But the thread is not about the wine they had been drinking before it ran out, its about the water that Jesus miraclously turned into wine.
     
  15. Barney

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    You're right, many translations try to soften the verse by changing "drunk" to something like "drunk freely". But, the NIV is even worse. Being drunk doesn't necessarily mean "too much". The NIV inserts a value judgement which isn't in the verse. It's bad enough that some not-so-bright Christians run around insisting that if Jesus made wine, he's a wino (or whatever the evil Pharisees called Jesus for drinking). It's even worse when a Bible translation itself tells us that Jesus made wine for people who already had too much.
     
  16. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Yes, I have been drunk before coming to Christ. I usually did not remember much of anything let alone what things tasted like.

    Actually, one's senses are dulled when they drink. So food and drink cannot be fully enjoyed unlike when one is sober. See this source here. We live in a pleasure driven culture. However, the Bible warns that in the last days there will be those who are lovers of pleasures more than they are lovers of God (See 2 Timothy 3:1-9). So I would be very cautious so as to defend pleasures that can lead to our destruction and or to sin. For the Kingdom of God is not meat and drink but it is righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost (Romans 14:17)

    Anyways, the major problem with your theory that the wedding attendees were drunk is that Jesus did not tell them to repent of their drunkenness. Jesus Himself said in the beginning of his ministry to repent. In other words, if what you say is true, that would be like Christ joining in a sinful practice of sacrificing to another god just so as to change the elements in the sacrifice without Him rebuking their sin for worshiping another God. For Jesus came to call sinners to repentance. He did not call them to remain in their sins with Him saying nothing (as if He was in silent approval of such things).

    The Bible is clear that drunkenness is a serious sin that leads to spiritual death (Galatians 5:19-21). Jesus would not be glorified by doing a miracle admist such a sin whereby He did not correct them.
     
  17. Almost there

    Almost there Well-Known Member

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    I have to say that I chuckle inside a little when a church full of mostly obese people (and, sadly, there is a lot of that here in rural KY) say that drinking any alcohol is a sin. The bible is crystal clear on it. It's amazing any Christians even debate it. The ONLY exception is in the case of the "tyrany of the weaker brother", which even gets into eating meat.

    But regarding the weaker brother, I've learned to NOT debate this with brothers who are dry alcoholics.
     
  18. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    I don't think we can enter into any Bible study by starting off with "Here's what Jesus should have done."
     
  19. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Not true. You are only saying what you think is right. I have deeply studied this topic more times then I care to count. The more I study, the more it sides with the truth of what I know.

    Here are...

    21 Warnings That Speak Against The Alcoholic Beverage Itself.
    (That is not specifically or exclusively talking about drunkenness)

    Passages For the Old Testament Saint:

    (Before the Cross: The OT Saint did not have a liberty in Christ to drink intoxicating beverages)
    (Just as they did not have a liberty in Christ to eat unclean animals)

    1) Deuteronomy 29:5-6
    - God gave no grape juice to Israel nor did they have intoxicating drink in the wilderness.
    (The reason for this action was taken so as to show how they knew God).

    2) Deuteronomy 32:33
    - Enemy's wine is like the poison of serpents vs. Israelite's pure blood of the grape (verse 14).

    3) 1 Samuel 1:14-15
    - Accused, Hannah said she drank no wine.

    4) Proverbs 4:17
    - Alcoholic drink is called the wine of violence.

    5) Proverbs 20:1
    - Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging.

    6) Proverbs 23:31
    - God instructs not to look at intoxicating drinks.

    7) Proverbs 23:32
    - Alcoholic drinks bite like a serpent, sting like an adder.

    8) Proverbs 23:35
    - Alcohol makes the drinker insensitive to pain so he does not perceive it as a warning.
    (It also says Alcohol is habit forming).

    9) Proverbs 31:4-5
    - Kings, Princes, and others who rule and judge must not drink alcohol. Alcohol perverts good judgment.

    10) Ecclesiastes 2:3
    - The king tried everything, including intoxicating drink, to see if it satisfied. It did not.
    (c.f. Ecclesiastes 12:8)

    11) Ecclesiastes 10:17
    - A land is blessed when its leaders do not drink.

    12) Isaiah 5:22
    - There is a woe unto them who mix strong drinks.

    13) Jeremiah 35:2-14
    - The Rechabites drank no grape juice or intoxicating wine and were blessed.

    14) Daniel 1:5-17
    - Daniel refused the king’s intoxicating wine and was blessed for it along with his abstaining friends.

    15) Hosea 4:11
    - Intoxicating wine seduces the heart.


    Passages For the New Testament Saint:

    (After the Cross: NT Saints (Not All) have a liberty in Christ to drink alcohol soberly & privately)
    (Just as they have a liberty in Christ to eat unclean animals)
    (Those whose conscience condemns them in drinking are not to drink)
    (Those who are leaders in the church are not to drink alcohol)

    16) Romans 14:21
    - Do not do anything (Including drinking intoxicating beverages) to make your brother to stumble.

    17) 1 Timothy 3:2-3
    - Bishops (elders) are to be temperate, sober, and not near any wine.

    18) 1 Timothy 3:8
    - Deacons are to be worthy of respect and not drinkers.

    19) 1 Timothy 3:11
    - Deacons’ wives are to be temperate and sober.

    20) Titus 1:7-8
    - A bishop is not to be given to wine.

    21) Titus 2:2-3
    - The older men and older women of the church are to be temperate and not addicted to wine.


    Source Used:
    75 Bible References on Drinking Alcohol
    (Please take note that I only agree with the Scripture that they posted; This does not mean I am in agreement with the author's other beliefs on other topics).
     
  20. Almost there

    Almost there Well-Known Member

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    In my old Assembly of God church back in the 1990's a funny thing happened. We were roughly 1,500 regular attenders split between two services. We were a tea totalling church, but one day the pastor was preaching on something that had nothing whatsoever to do with wine, but wine was mentioned in the verse he was reading, and it was friendly to wine. At the end of the sentence he stopped, looked up at the congregation, and said, "By the way, that is not grape juice. It's fermented wine.", and then continued reading the scripture and went on with his message.

    The story of the water into wine nails it. And it nails it with the wine steward's comments to remove all doubt about what was in the jugs - even to this day.
     
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