6 Biblical Reasons Why Jesus Made Unfermented Wine (Grape Juice).

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Neogaia777

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My Grandfather, before he died at 90, was told to, or was told it was ok and even good too, drink two glasses of red grape wine a day, for his heart and circulatory issues, (Health issues) and he did, and I think that's why he lived to ninety... And Paul, I think, told Timothy to drink some for his stomach... And you do know that alcohol, has a purifying effect on the beverage, when much of the water could not be trusted to drink...

And, not to mention that no one made non-alcoholic wine back then, cause they can only do it today, cause of some process they did not have back then to make it non-alcoholic, or something like that...

God Bless!
I drank three glasses of his wine when I was staying up there on time... it was the best red wine I ever tasted, it came in gallons, but, I don't remember what it was or what it was called...? But, I've tried other red wines, and did not like any of them... but, that stuff my grandpa had, was not bad at all... I got quite the buzz of it and had a good nights sleep as well...

And I wonder if I should try to find some for heart health...?

God Bless!
 
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Radagast

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the guests at the party have become a degree of intoxication that did not extended to the MC.

The MC was a man doing a job; he wasn't partying. It was his job to make sure that the wedding party was a success and that everybody had a good time.

He needed to taste each batch of wine, but he also needed to stay sober.
 
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Anguspure

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Yes they were.

Have you ever been really drunk? If you've ever been really drunk and taking another shot on top of that did you notice that it had any finer quality about it? In all likelihood the answer is no.

They could notice a difference in what they drank though. I think that speaks volumes about Christ's wine and how it's qualities pierced their intoxication to the point where they could realize how good what he made was.
Who said these people were blotto?

This is a mature society that knows about drinking, a society who appreciates a civilised way of enjoy the company, conversation and conviviality of others over a jug of good wine.

Drunkards that can't control themselves are never welcome in this sort of company and it these sorts of people who ruin the whole business of having a few drinks with friends. It is these sorts of clowns that make it necessary for authorities to pass restricitve laws.

Clearly the wedding at Cana was a civilised affair where people were capable of enjoying themselves in the community with getting out of their brains and so when Jesus presented the best vintage anybody had ever tried at the end of the wedding week they were more than capable of making a judgement as to its quality.
 
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Anguspure

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Carnal self, not Spiritual self, and that's part of the problem, and overdoing it can be very destructive sometimes...

And I do not think Jesus is saying it's OK to be and alcoholic, because of any of this either... That's just "silly"...

God Bless!
I am not trying to say that Jesus is saying its ok.

My argument is more to the point that people blame alchohol for thier own bad hearts and minds.
 
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Radagast

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However, alcohol is not a product of life but it is a picture or symbol of death because it is a byproduct of death and not life.

Well, no. It's living things (yeast) that make alcohol.

And it's interesting that you quote Proverbs 31, which recommends that poor people forget their troubles by getting intoxicated:

Let beer be for those who are perishing,
wine for those who are in anguish!
Let them drink and forget their poverty
and remember their misery no more.


The fruit of the vine is grape juice!

The fruit of the vine is wine. For our convenience, God has created grapes so that yeast actually grows on the skin of the grape. As soon as you crush the grapes, the yeast mixes with the juice, and fermentation begins.
 
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Anguspure

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The MC would have been controlling the mixing of wine and water. It was his job to make sure that people had a good time, but did not become "blotto."
Good MC I agree. But also not a binge drinking culture like in NZ, Oz and the good ole US of A.
 
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I believe a saint can drink today's wine and not be condemned. I believe in their ignorance, they would be saved. For Paul says you can drink anything. Granted, Paul is not telling us to tempt the LORD and drink known poisons. But see, that is just it. Alcohol is a poison and many Christians today do not realize that fact.

Alcohol is not a poison if drunk in moderation. There are various studies which describe benefits of red wine.
Coffee may not be poison, but it is a drug. Too much coffee can be very harmful - as can the caffeine in fizzy drinks.
Too much chocolate is bad for you. Too much of anything, in fact; even water.

So while it is lawful for certain Christians to drink today's wine

It is lawful for all Christians to drink. If they are recovering alcoholics, it may be very unwise; but it is lawful.

If they learn that wine is a poison (like myself) and they know it can only lead to destruction and they socially drink it (despite their conscience condemning them), they are committing sin.

I've just told you that coffee is a drug; if you drink it, knowing that, are you sinning? No.
As someone has said, gluttony is a sin; if you eat food, knowing that some people will eat too much and become fat, or ill; are you sinning? No.

Anyways, let's say you are enjoying a nice glass of wine at your local restaurant when you are approached by a fellow believer in Christ who says, "I am offended to see you drink that wine." "My brother used to look up to you for spiritual strength and now he has fallen back into alcoholism because of your public drinking here." What should you think, say or do?

If you are out for a meal with a believer whom you know is a recovering alcoholic and has a weakness, and you deliberately order a glass of wine, drink it in front of them and that believer immediately orders a whole bottle and gets drunk and ill; that would be very unwise behaviour.
Even so, the other believer is responsible for their own actions.

In the scenario you gave, you cannot be responsible for someone else's behaviour, or how they choose to act or respond to something - especially if you had no idea. If you KNOW that something would offend/cause someone else to stumble and you do, and continue to do, it in front of them - that is wrong and unfair. Paul said something similar when writing about meat offered to idols. He said that it is fine to eat meat offered to an idol, as an idol is nothing; UNLESS doing so would make a fellow believer stumble. Then you should refrain - for their sake.
And in this hypothetical scenario, you would not have MADE the person fall back into alcoholism; their body, their choice. Maybe they just wanted to find an excuse to have another drink and "well X drinks and they're a Christian", might be enough to justify it to themselves.

Also, let's say a new believer is baptized and becomes a member of your church. While an unbeliever, he continuously abused drugs and alcohol. Upon becoming a Christian, he vowed to the Lord that he would never use drugs or alcohol ever again. The church (of which he is now a member) uses wine as a part of the Lord's Supper. What happens if this person stumbles back into alcoholism because of their use of alcoholic wine in the Lord's supper?

Firstly, a number of churches that I know of use non alcoholic wine at communion.
Secondly, if they used alcoholic wine and a new believer said "I'm not coming to communion any more, alcoholic wine would lead me into temptation"; I hope the church would be concerned enough to want to make changes. They might, in any case, have a number of people on medication, who could not mix it with alcohol.
Thirdly, in my experience, people have only a tiny cup/sip of communion wine; not even enough to enjoy/quench thirst, never mind get drunk. If a person "stumbled back into alcoholism", it's very unlikely they would be able to blame the communion wine for such an action. They might try to; to shift the blame, but drinking again would have been their choice.
Fourthly, even if every single church in the country/area used alcoholic wine and poured communicants half a unit at a time, I don't believe it would be a problem. Partly because communicants only receive the wine once - you can't go to the end of the line and have 3 or 4 shots. But mostly because the wine represents the blood of Christ. No one goes to communion to have a drink, we go to celebrate Christ's death. I am certain that the Lord would not have chosen something sinful, or which could lead to sin and dependency, to celebrate such a holy event; his death.

Paul condemned the Corinthians because some of then were starting the Lord's supper early, as soon as they arrived, and were drinking so much wine that they were getting drunk. But the sin was their behaviour, not that there was alcoholic wine in the first place.

For drinking soberly and in the privacy of your own home is not the same thing as drinking openly where others could see you and potentially stumble.

But you could say that about anything.
You are walking to a meeting, don't have time for lunch and pick up a hot dog. A Christian who is on a diet sees you eating, thinks "oh, it must be ok then", buys 3 or 4 burgers and puts on weight which is harder to shift. Is that your fault for eating outside, or their fault for choosing to buy, and eat, so many burgers, knowing that they shouldn't?
On a very hot day you are trying to cool off and enjoying an ice cream. Someone comes along who is diabetic, sees you eating your ice cream, goes and orders one, or more, HUGE ice creams and becomes ill; your fault, or theirs, for knowing what they shouldn't do but doing it anyway?
You go to a shop and buy a new coat. Someone walking along thinks "that LOOKS like fur; I guess it's ok to buy these animal products after all". Or you buy a cashmere jumper and someone with an allergy to wool sees you, thinks, "if that Christian is doing it, it must be ok", buys and wears the jumper and becomes ill. Your fault for buying a new jumper, or theirs for deliberately doing something which they know will make them ill/cause them problems?

We are not to deliberately do something which will make another Christian stumble or which would be a bad witness - eg reading horoscopes in public or going to a public seance. But we can't avoid everything, just in case it offends/causes problems for other people.

So while it is lawful to drink soberly and in private, Jesus did not turn water into alcoholic wine as if he placed his seal of approval upon it for you to do the same in public.

I'm not sure that anyone would read John 2 and think, "oh, Jesus is saying that he approves of me getting drunk in public". Not unless you have an extreme approach to Scripture, or you want to find a reason for doing something that you have decided to do anyway and which, FOR YOU, would be wrong.

Jesus calls you to pick up your cross and to deny yourself in everything in your life.

Everything? Food? Money? Clothes? A job/house? Christian study? Hobbies?
No. If he told me that, I would do it. But he hasn't and there is no evidence that all Christians are called to do this.

For we are supposed to be holy and separate from the world and not be associated with the unfruitful works of darkness.

That doesn't mean living in a tent on locusts and wild honey and not mixing, or making friends with, people.

We are to dedicate our lives to Jesus in all things for our love for Him. Not out of some sense of legalism, but out of love. Love for God (Jesus) and love for your fellow brother.

And who's to say that we can't do that while enjoying a nice meal/a glass of wine/our hobbies? A Christian who works hard as a doctor, is dedicating their life, and work, to God just as much as a monk who lives in a monastery. It depends on what you are called to do.
 
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Albion

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You distort the Bible to match your distorted sensibilities. John 2:10 does say they were drunk. And, Jesus made more alcohol. Genesis 1:1 (KJV)
Read the verse before you say that. To 'be drunk' and to 'have drunk of' something mean two different things.

Here is John 2:10--
10 and saith unto him, Every man setteth on first the good wine; and when [men] have drunk freely
 
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Albion

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There is an actual ad by Dr Welch calling his grape juice unfermented wine.
You seem surprised or vindicated by this news. OF COURSE, a Welch's ad would promote grape juice as meeting the wording found in the Bible because the big drive to get churches to replace wine with Welch's Grape Juice was a campaign similar to those of all the other 'snake oil' salesmen who were active at that time in our history.

When do you think that replacing wine with grape juice became a "thing?" Not during the Reformation! And why do you think Welch was in the forefront of trying to convince evangelical pastors to make the switch? Well, duh! $$$$$$$$$$$$
 
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Albion

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No. Read it again. It says,

“And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.” (John 2:10) (KJV).

It says they have “...well drunk...” of the good wine, and the worse (tasting) wine is served last. So if they were “...well drunk...” of the good wine, that means that they were at least tipsy or drunk before Jesus made even more supposedly intoxicating wine.

No, it doesn't. You are merely hoping to find that meaning in the verse.

To have 'well drunk' means to have drunk to your satisfaction but it doesn't mean that you ARE DRUNK.

But it doesn't matter anyway since we know that Christ provided them with even more of it at that point in time.
 
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Albion

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Have you ever drank a non-alchoholic wine? They put it on the ships I work on for the festive seasons. Pah! Terrible stuff! and that is from reputable wine makers trying to pander to the teetotallers.

That's my reaction to the stuff also. However, I think this misses the point I was making earlier. The alcoholic content of wines varies. But it's not the case that the higher you get the percentage, the better the wine is. Many other factors account for why some wines are wonderful while others are poor quality. We can't just look at the label and say, "Hmm. 12.5%. That is a better tasting, more full-bodied wine than the one over here which is only 11%!"
 
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Radagast

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Here is John 2:10--

The Greek word is μεθύω. Elsewhere (Matthew 24:49, Acts of the Apostles 2:15, 1 Corinthians 11:21, 1 Thessalonians 5:7, Revelation 17:2, Revelation 17:6) the word is translated "to be drunk." In fact, it's the ordinary NT word for being drunk.

Many translations of John 2:10 are trying to avoid scandal, I suspect -- more honest translations include:

NIV: Everyone brings out the choice wine first and then the cheaper wine after the guests have had too much to drink

NASB footnote version: Every man serves the good wine first, and when the people have have become drunk, then he serves the poorer wine

Mounce: Everyone serves the choice wine first, and then when the guests are a bit tipsy, that which is inferior
 
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Strong in Him

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The Greek word is μεθύω.

Elsewhere (Matthew 24:49, Acts of the Apostles 2:15, 1 Corinthians 11:21, 1 Thessalonians 5:7, Revelation 17:2, Revelation 17:6) the word is translated "to be drunk."

That word may mean "drunk", but if you put the word "have" in front of it, you are just indicating the tense. Saying that someone HAS drunk, is not the same as saying that they are drunk - i.e inebriated - now.

Or are you saying that Christ sinned by providing more wine to drunkards, instead of delivering a strong moral message/rebuke?
 
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Radagast

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That word may mean "drunk", but if you put the word "have" in front of it, you are just indicating the tense. Saying that someone HAS drunk, is not the same as saying that they are drunk - i.e inebriated - now.

Well, no. In English putting "have" in front of it changes the meaning. In Greek, "have drunk" would be πεπωκα, a completely different word.

The verb is μεθύω in John 2:10 means the same as it does in Matthew 24:49, Acts of the Apostles 2:15, 1 Corinthians 11:21, 1 Thessalonians 5:7, Revelation 17:2, and Revelation 17:6 -- it means to be inebriated.

Or are you saying that Christ sinned by providing more wine to drunkards, instead of delivering a strong moral message/rebuke?

Possibly alcohol, used in moderation, is not as bad as you think. The Pharisees in Matthew 11:19 made a similar complaint ("The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Look at him! A glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!'").
 
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Albion

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Then why would the translators of the KJV have so deliberately mistranslated this, do you think? Honesty, I am finding it difficult to think of a real reason, even as I agree to the word used in the original. Could there be another explanation? We know, for instance, that this wedding at Cana was huge--thousands of guests. Do we suppose that every last one of them was literally "drunk?" A narrow translation would seemingly have to convey that meaning, but I do not think that is the meaning.
 
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Radagast

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Then why would the translators of the KJV have so deliberately mistranslated this, do you think?

I can only assume they didn't want to present Jesus as making people drunk. And I wouldn't go so far as to call it a "mistranslation" -- just an imperfect translation. The phrase "having drunk freely" only really gets misunderstood if you think "wine" means "grape juice."

Do we suppose that every last one of them was literally "drunk?"

No. And that's because English has a range of words for "inebriated," with "tipsy" at one end, then "drunk," then "blotto." The Greek word really only tells us that people were affected by alcohol, and doesn't really point at a specific place on the spectrum defined by the English words.
 
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