6 Biblical Reasons Why Jesus Made Unfermented Wine (Grape Juice).

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I don't think we can enter into any Bible study by beginning with "Here's what Jesus should have done."

I agree. That is what I believe everyone else is doing here because they do not understand that the word "wine" can either refer to fermented wine or unfermented wine. This is confirmed, by Dictionary.com, older dictionaries, an ad by Dr. Welch, the Talmud, and other ancient historical documents. So when people say "wine" always mean "alcholic wine" I try to fight not to sigh or roll my eyes. For they obviously have not studied the topic or did any kind of deep research to see whether it is true or not. They want the wine in John 2 to be alcoholic because that is what their preconceived notions say and that is what they want to be true because they like wine or they have fond memories of wine.
 
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I agree. That is what I believe everyone else is doing here because they do not understand that the word "wine" can either refer to fermented wine or unfermented wine.
No. They understand it. Most of them quite well, actually. They just disagree that it was grape juice in the cases it came up in the NT.

It's one of those "new controversies" that were never really controversial. Don't get me wrong. There are "new controversies" that were always controversial but simply forced into silence before the internet, such as the ECTCI debate, but this one is about trying to change the plain meaning of scripture in both modern translations and the original greek. Kind of like the ever virgin mary thing.
 
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In my old Assembly of God church back in the 1990's a funny thing happened. We were roughly 1,500 regular attenders split between two services. We were a tea totalling church, but one day the pastor was preaching on something that had nothing whatsoever to do with wine, but wine was mentioned in the verse he was reading, and it was friendly to wine. At the end of the sentence he stopped, looked up at the congregation, and said, "By the way, that is not grape juice. It's fermented wine.", and then continued reading the scripture and went on with his message.

The story of the water into wine nails it. And it nails it with the wine steward's comments to remove all doubt about what was in the jugs - even to this day.

Verses please. Your pastor is wrong. I would love to challenge his story and even talk to him (if he is willing). I have argued this topic numerous times. I have argued it for approximately 70 pages on another thread and about the same on another one, too. I have deeply studied the topic. Scripture is heavily in support of Jesus making unfermented wine and not fermented wine.
 
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Ken Rank

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Not true. You are only saying what you think is right. I have deeply studied this topic more times then I care to count. The more I study, the more it sides with the truth of what I know.

Here are...

21 Warnings That Speak Against The Alcoholic Beverage Itself.
(That is not specifically or exclusively talking about drunkenness)

Passages For the Old Testament Saint:

(Before the Cross: The OT Saint did not have a liberty in Christ to drink intoxicating beverages)
(Just as they did not have a liberty in Christ to eat unclean animals)

1) Deuteronomy 29:5-6
- God gave no grape juice to Israel nor did they have intoxicating drink in the wilderness.
(The reason for this action was taken so as to show how they knew God).

2) Deuteronomy 32:33
- Enemy's wine is like the poison of serpents vs. Israelite's pure blood of the grape (verse 14).

3) 1 Samuel 1:14-15
- Accused, Hannah said she drank no wine.

4) Proverbs 4:17
- Alcoholic drink is called the wine of violence.

5) Proverbs 20:1
- Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging.

6) Proverbs 23:31
- God instructs not to look at intoxicating drinks.

7) Proverbs 23:32
- Alcoholic drinks bite like a serpent, sting like an adder.

8) Proverbs 23:35
- Alcohol makes the drinker insensitive to pain so he does not perceive it as a warning.
(It also says Alcohol is habit forming).

9) Proverbs 31:4-5
- Kings, Princes, and others who rule and judge must not drink alcohol. Alcohol perverts good judgment.

10) Ecclesiastes 2:3
- The king tried everything, including intoxicating drink, to see if it satisfied. It did not.
(c.f. Ecclesiastes 12:8)

11) Ecclesiastes 10:17
- A land is blessed when its leaders do not drink.

12) Isaiah 5:22
- There is a woe unto them who mix strong drinks.

13) Jeremiah 35:2-14
- The Rechabites drank no grape juice or intoxicating wine and were blessed.

14) Daniel 1:5-17
- Daniel refused the king’s intoxicating wine and was blessed for it along with his abstaining friends.

15) Hosea 4:11
- Intoxicating wine seduces the heart.


Passages For the New Testament Saint:

(After the Cross: NT Saints (Not All) have a liberty in Christ to drink alcohol soberly & privately)
(Just as they have a liberty in Christ to eat unclean animals)
(Those whose conscience condemns them in drinking are not to drink)
(Those who are leaders in the church are not to drink alcohol)

16) Romans 14:21
- Do not do anything (Including drinking intoxicating beverages) to make your brother to stumble.

17) 1 Timothy 3:2-3
- Bishops (elders) are to be temperate, sober, and not near any wine.

18) 1 Timothy 3:8
- Deacons are to be worthy of respect and not drinkers.

19) 1 Timothy 3:11
- Deacons’ wives are to be temperate and sober.

20) Titus 1:7-8
- A bishop is not to be given to wine.

21) Titus 2:2-3
- The older men and older women of the church are to be temperate and not addicted to wine.


Source Used:
75 Bible References on Drinking Alcohol
(Please take note that I only agree with the Scripture that they posted; This does not mean I am in agreement with the author's other beliefs on other topics).
I can go over each and every one of them but you have made it clear... YOU have studied this, thus YOU are correct. No need for me to waste any more time.
 
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Verses please. Your pastor is wrong. I would love to challenge his story and even talk to him (if he is willing). I have argued this topic numerous times. I have argued it for approximately 70 pages on another thread and about the same on another one, too. I have deeply studied the topic. Scripture is heavily in support of Jesus making unfermented wine and not fermented wine.
For the sake of the weaker brothers that may be here, I'm going to back out. I've probably said too much already. I'm going to invoke Romans 14 here. Let each one of us decide in his own mind and live by it.
 
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No. They understand it. Most of them quite well, actually. They just disagree that it was grape juice in the cases it came up in the NT.

It's one of those "new controversies" that were never really controversial. Don't get me wrong. There are "new controversies" that were always controversial but simply forced into silence before the internet, such as the ECTCI debate, but this one is about trying to change the plain meaning of scripture in both modern translations and the original greek. Kind of like the ever virgin mary thing.

Actually, not really. I used to believe as you and others commonly believe who did not do a deep study on this topic. I believed once that it was alcoholic wine but it troubled me. I thought there had to be an explanation where Jesus was innocent in doing this if it was alcoholic wine. But see... that is just it. There is no explanation you can give to defend Jesus making alcoholic wine that would add to the supposedly drunken party at the wedding. The Bible is clear that drunkenness is a sin. So if the people were "...well drunk...." of the good wine (John 2:10), then Jesus adding more intoxicating wine to their drunkenness would have been a sin on His part. But we know that Scripture says that Jesus did not sin. So this means that Jesus did not contribute to their drunkened state (by making more intoxicating wine).
 
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Albion

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I agree. That is what I believe everyone else is doing here because they do not understand that the word "wine" can either refer to fermented wine or unfermented wine.
I disagree. You have argued that Jesus couldn't have done thus or so because that would show bad judgement or be flatly unacceptable. That is to limit Jesus's actions, even though we know that he didn't follow convention on many occasions.

This is confirmed, by Dictionary.com, older dictionaries, an ad by Dr. Welch....
Welch may have said that--I'm sure you are right about that. It's because he wanted to sell grape juice to the churches! This is a known fact. The campaign was, in fact, remarkably successful. But Bible scholars and historians--not grape juice manufacturers and sellers--have overwhelmingly contended that it was real wine, if no doubt watered down. So are we to believe the story told by the grape juice salesman or the explanation given by experts?
 
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I can go over each and every one of them but you have made it clear... YOU have studied this, thus YOU are correct. No need for me to waste any more time.

Not at all. There are others who agree with me and what those historical documents say. My position lines up with the Bible and morality. This is something that you cannot say is true for your position. So I challenge you to look at the verses. I challenge you to do some digging to see if there are people in history that talked about the preservation of grape juice and who used the word "wine" in reference to grape juice. If not, then you will see what you will have always seen.
 
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I disagree. You have argued that Jesus couldn't have done thus or so because that would show bad judgement or be flatly unacceptable. That is to limit Jesus's actions, even though we know that he didn't follow convention on many occasions.

Welch may have said that--I'm sure you are right about that--because he wanted to sell grape juice to the churches! This is a known fact. The campaign was, in fact, remarkable successful. But Bible scholars and historians--not grape juice manufacturers and sellers--have overwhelmingly contended that it was real wine, if no doubt watered down. So are we to believe the story told by the grape juice salesman or the explanation given by experts?
Then you disagree with our dictionaries and historical documents and the Bible on this topic.

Let me ask you a few questions.

Do you believe the people at the wedding party were drunk or close to it?
Do you believe that drunkenness is a sin?
If Jesus made intoxicating wine and the wedding party was "...well drunk..." of the good wine (John 2:10), then how could they not be drunk when Jesus gave of them even more intoxicating wine? Think about it.
 
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Not at all. There are others who agree with me and what those historical documents say. My position lines up with the Bible and morality. This is something that you cannot say is true for your position. So I challenge you to look at the verses. I challenge you to do some digging to see if there are people in history that talked about the preservation of grape juice and who used the word "wine" in reference to grape juice. If not, then you will see what you will have always seen.
I have to confess that when I moved into dry central KY six years ago, whenever one of the local tea totalling Baptists went on a bit of a rant about the evils of alcohol, when they were done, I'd ask them, "So, are you Mormon, or are you muslim". It always got me some funny looks and was often a great conversation starter. :)
 
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they do not understand that the word "wine" can either refer to fermented wine or unfermented wine.

The Greek word oinos means "wine." As in fermented. As in alcoholic. The word is used so much that there's no doubt.

And since yeast grows on the skin of grapes, they start to ferment as soon as you crush them.
 
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Then you disagree with our dictionaries and historical documents and the Bible on this topic.
Indeed I don't. But you are working from weaker evidence (such as what Welch himself, who stood to make money if churches switched to grape juice, said). There is plenty of evidence available to you from all sorts of Christian research organizations and from historians that attest to the kind of wine used at Cana in that time period.

Let me ask you a few questions.

Do you believe the people at the wedding party were drunk or close to it?
Some most likely were. But we do not know that all of them were. That would be quite an unwarranted assumption that we would have no reason to make.

Do you believe that drunkenness is a sin?
If Jesus made intoxicating wine and the wedding party was "...well drunk..." of the good wine (John 2:10), then how could they not be drunk when Jesus gave of them even more intoxicating wine? Think about it.
I've thought about it and what I wrote just above here puts your concerns to rest if you care to consider it. In any case, what Jesus did Jesus had a right to do. And what Jesus did is what the Bible says he did. What's more, what he did, even if unconventional or contrary to the practice of the Hebrew leaders, is nothing more than he did repeatedly during his adult life. You should know this.
 
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I have to confess that when I moved into dry central KY six years ago, whenever one of the local tea totalling Baptists went on a bit of a rant about the evils of alcohol, when they were done, I'd ask them, "So, are you Mormon, or are you muslim". It always got me some funny looks and was often a great conversation starter. :)

That is like saying that the Trinity is false because Catholics believe in it. So truth is not determined by guilt by association always.

By the way, I am not a Prohibitionist. I am an Abstentionist. I believe certain Christians (not all) can drink soberly and responsibly (i.e. a glass or two with a meal) in the privacy of their own home so as not to make their brother to stumble. But I caution strongly against drinking for Christians because of the knowledge that I have about alcohol. For me, drinking alcohol would be a sin because my conscience would condemn me. But for others, who do not have my knowledge on the destructive nature of alcohol can most certainly drink it. Note: This is not in reference for medical reasons like with Paul telling us that we can drink a little wine for the infirmities of our stomachs. I am talking about social drinking (a glass or two) with a meal amongst brothers who would not not be offended.
 
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Indeed I don't. But you are working from weaker evidence (such as what Welch himself, who stood to make money if churches switched to grape juice). There is plenty of evidence available to you from all sorts of Christian research organizations and from historians that attest to the kind of wine used at Cana in that time period.


Some more likely were. But we do not know that all of them were. That would be quite an unwarranted assumption that we would have no reason to make.


I've thought about it and what I wrote just above here puts your concerns to rest if you care to consider it. In any case, what Jesus did Jesus had a right to do. And what Jesus did is that the Bible says he did. What's more, what he did, even if unconventional or contrary to the practice of the Hebrew leaders is nothing more than he did repeatedly during his adult life. You should know this.

No. You are not following through with the logic of the truth here. I will ask you again.

Do you believe that drunkenness is a sin?
If Jesus made intoxicating wine and the wedding party was "...well drunk..." of the good wine (John 2:10), then how could they not be drunk when Jesus gave of them even more intoxicating wine?

Please answer these questions please.
 
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My position lines up with the Bible and morality. This is something that you cannot say is true for your position.

Right, your position is from the bible and mine is from satan. And morality? Whose, yours? The language says wine... you can't get passed that alone. All of your conclusions have been built from a faulty premise... the Word says fermented. That's it, Jason... what you do with that is between you and God not you and me. I don't care, this isn't a salvation issue and shouldn't be cause for division UNLESS you believe that everything you believe needs to be accepted? I doubt... I hope that isn't the case...

Moving on...
Ken
 
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No. You are not following through with the logic of the truth here. I will ask you again.

Do you believe that drunkenness is a sin?
If Jesus made intoxicating wine and the wedding party was "...well drunk..." of the good wine (John 2:10), then how could they not be drunk when Jesus gave of them even more intoxicating wine?

Please answer these questions please.
Jason, Jesus made wine, probably wine that was cut with water. That's all there is to this. If you think he did wrong, just say that.
 
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On top of what's been said, the oldest churches, east and west, have continued the practice of using wine for the Eucharist from the beginning, following Jesus' practice at the Last Supper.
As has the Jews... this is a practice that goes back long before Yeshua walked the earth. I have attended a synagogue a number of times and they do a weekly blessing (not a communion though it kind of looks like it) and they use wine. Why? Because that is what the language states... it was fermented, it just was. Saying it wasn't comes from being raised in or indoctrinated into a denomination that forbids alcohol. Which is FINE if that is what they want to do... but it does create a bias through which the Scripture is read.
 
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then how could they not be drunk when Jesus gave of them even more intoxicating wine?

Well, for one thing, the adult human liver gets rid of one standard drink's worth of alcohol each hour.

For another, the MC would have been working to keep the level of intoxication at the party to a mild level.
 
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That is like saying that the Trinity is false because Catholics believe in it. So truth is not determined by guilt by association always.

By the way, I am not a Prohibitionist. I am an Abstentionist. I believe certain Christians (not all) can drink soberly and responsibly (i.e. a glass or two with a meal) in the privacy of their own home so as not to make their brother to stumble. But I caution strongly against drinking for Christians because of the knowledge that I have about alcohol. For me, drinking alcohol would be a sin because my conscience would condemn me. But for others, who do not have my knowledge on the destructive nature of alcohol can most certainly drink it. Note: This is not in reference for medical reasons like with Paul telling us that we can drink a little wine for the infirmities of our stomachs. I am talking about social drinking (a glass or two) with a meal amongst brothers who would not not be offended.
I have to agree with you on that first paragraph. I changed my belief regarding hell to what one may find on this site: Jewishnotgreek.com

And a lot of people try to do the guilt by association thing, trying to lump me in with JW and SDA, at which point I point out that I was nice enough to not lump them in with Muslims. ;)

However, my comment about Mormons and Muslims is always said with a bit of a wink to get the conversation started. It's not said "dryly" as it may come across here. :)
 
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