6 Biblical Reasons Why Jesus Made Unfermented Wine (Grape Juice).

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SeventyOne

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I am very much opposed to drinking alcohol, but on social grounds, not religious grounds. It is a social evil that it tied into spousal abuse, child abuse, sexual abuse, etc. However, I doubt very much that Jesus turned water into grape juice.

Alcohol will bring out what is actually inside a person, causing their inhibitions to subside. If someone is abusive when they drink, that someone is naturally abusive without it as well but can control it to a degree when sober.

It's not the alcohol that's the issue, but the character of the person drinking it.
 
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Strong in Him

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Well, no. In English putting "have" in front of it changes the meaning. In Greek, "have drunk" would be πεπωκα, a completely different word.

The verb is μεθύω in John 2:10 means the same as it does in Matthew 24:49, Acts of the Apostles 2:15, 1 Corinthians 11:21, 1 Thessalonians 5:7, Revelation 17:2, and Revelation 17:6 -- it means to be inebriated.

Well I can't argue Greek with you. but are you saying that the guests at the wedding were already drunk and that Jesus deliberately made them more so?

Possibly alcohol, used in moderation, is not as bad as you think.

I don't think it's bad, in moderation.
I was challenging the op which seemed to be saying that drinking alcohol is a sin, therefore Jesus turned water into, and drank only, grape juice.
 
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faroukfarouk

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But a miracle wouldn't be turning water into grape juice? That wine Jesus miraculously made was distinguishable in taste from the wine before. And I understand that wouldn't be a complete explanation for how the wine Jesus made was pure.
When American fundamentalists, with an historical background of instinctive support of Prohibition, use the argument that at Cana the Lord didn't actually turn the water into real wine, the stock response of the theologically liberal is to say: Well, great that you guys agree with us for a change that it wasn't really a miracle after all!
 
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7 REAS0JS WHY JESUS CHANGED WATER INTO FERMENTED WINE:
(1) The wedding steward implies that, as usual his guests had gotten drunk.
The steward identifies the normal pattern as serving the best wine first, so that, after the guests start to get drunk, they can no longer tell the difference between good and inferior wine.

Your position is defeated in the fact that the Bible teaches that drunkenness is a serious sin.

Galatians 5:21 (ESV) says,
"Envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God."

1 Corinthians 6:10 (ESV) says,
"Nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."

Peter says we are to be sober-minded.

"“Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.” (1 Peter 5:8).

As for drinking a little bit of wine for the infirmaties of one's stomach: This is not social drinking but it is the use of wine for medical reasons. There is a big difference between the two.
 
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I was challenging the op which seemed to be saying that drinking alcohol is a sin, therefore Jesus turned water into, and drank only, grape juice.

Well, I do not believe drinking strong alcoholic beverages (moderately with a meal) is a sin for a New Testament saint. However, this would have been a sin for the Old Testament saint, though; For they had strict rules even on what kind of animals they could eat. Proverbs 23:31-32 says, "Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright. At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder."

I am an Abstentionist and not a Prohibitionist. This means that while certain believers in Christ (under the New Covenant) do have a liberty in Christ to drink strong alcoholic beverages soberly, and so as not to make their brother to stumble, I encourage all believers to consider the facts of alcohol in how it destroys the body; Therefore, I encourage (not command them) that they should abstain from it out of love for their Lord, their temple, and others. For while it may be lawful, it is not always profitable. For alcohol can lead to addiction, drunkenness, and in causing great pain upon others, etc. For it may be lawful for you to play with spitting cobras, but it simply would not be wise or profitable.

I believe there are 3 types of wines mentioned in the Bible.

#1. Fermented Wine (Strong in alcoholic content).
#2. Fermented Wine Diluted by Water (Low in alcoholic content)
#3. Unfermented Wine or Freshly Squeezed Grape Juice (A non intoxicating beverage).​

I believe the wine during Bible times that the Old Testament saints drank was Wine Type #2, whereby it was a wine mixed with water and was lower in alcoholic content (Which was the wine seen at the Wedding of Cana before Christ made Wine Type #3, which was non intoxicating grape juice or unfermented wine); In other words, the wines commonly drank by the OT saints was not like the strong wines of today; And Jesus made grape juice that made was considered the “best wine.” Wines of today (By wine tasters) are considered the best by their taste and not how much they can intoxicate you.

Wine mixed (diluted) with Water Verses:

Revelation 14:10 says,
“The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb”
(Contrast this with Psalms 75:8)

1 Timothy 5:23 says,
"Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities."

Proverbs 9:2 (NIV) says,
"She has prepared her meat and mixed her wine; she has also set her table."

Proverbs 23:31 - Do not look at wine when it is red.

John 19:34 - Blood and water mingled together from Christ's side; And Scripture essentially says the wine in the Lord's supper is representative of Jesus's blood (See Matthew 26:27-29).

Isaiah 1:22 (NIV) says,
“Your silver has become dross, your choice wine is diluted with water.”​

Pure silver, which would be too soft to be durable, is mixed with 5-20% copper in an alloy known as sterling silver.

How silver is made - material, making, history, used, processing, industry

If one were to take note: One has to mix copper in silver in order for it to be durable so as to be used. Just as one must use water in their mixture of wine to use it.

So the idea here is that the silver (mixed with copper) they use has become so dross (or watered down it is then cheap. Just as the wine (mixed with water) is diluted even more whereby it is cheap wine (for the times).

Wine could be carried in an undiluted state within leather skin like bottles and then later mixed with water for use. Timothy was told to use a little wine in his water because of the infirmities in his stomach. Paul was telling him to use Biblical wine so as to resolve a medical issue.

Extra Biblical Sources on how wine was mixed with water:

2 Maccabees 15:39, Talmud, and Justin Martyr, etc.​
 
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You obviously have no idea what you are talking about. You are so obsessed about the issues of social drinking you are allowing yourself to believe things that have nothing to do with reality. You just said something totally contradictory to reality.

Grapes naturally are covered in yeast on the vine. Yeasts are found in the air. The minute you squeeze a grape, you are exposing the juice to the yeast that turns it into wine. The only way to keep juice from fermenting is to pastuerize it, which was invented in the 1800s.

It is true that sometimes juice was boiled down, expensively, to make syrup. It is true they could have climbed mountains and placed grapes in perma-frost and used it like a freezer. That someone today could think up ways to preserve grapes back then doesn't mean they did.

I am very well aware of wine making. The "must" or powder like substance on the skins of the grapes is essentially the yeast that interacts with the sugars inside the grapes and causes fermentation. No yeast or must, and no fermentation.

However, as for natural wild yeast fermentations:

"Yeast Geneticist and Enology Professor at the University of California at Davis believes that, with the exception of a few wineries, the success of native yeast fermentations is anything but “proven” and supports the Department’s recommendation against the practice of uninoculated fermentations. She states, “I do not endorse this practice for several reasons. First, most wineries can ill afford to lose 10-20% of their production. In contrast to other techniques, a bad natural yeast fermentation leads to a wine that is not merely low in quality, but unmarketable."​

In other words, it is not a proven 100% Science. This is important to note because most folks who defend that Jesus made alcoholic wine act like you get alcoholic wine every single time the grapes are crushed (Which is simply not the case).

Source:
http://www.enologyinternational.com/yeast/wildyeast.html
 
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...Jesus turned water into, and drank only, grape juice.

Yes, this part is true. Jesus made only grape juice as a part of his miracle and He drank only grape juice. I believe this because Jesus perfect in everything He did. Jesus was not about self indulgence of physical things but He was about denial of these things out of a love for God and others. Jesus drank unfermented wine because it was an innocent drink. This drink represented His blood that would be shed for us for the New Testament. Fermentation is the process of yeast eating the sugar in the grapes. Yeast is a "type" or "symbol" of sin in the Bible. So it would be impossible for Christ's blood to represent sin because Scripture is clear that He was without sin.
 
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Not saying you are a Mormon, just bringing that to your attention.
The scripture does not say they were drunk. It said "when the guests have well drunk", a past tense of drink, not intoxicated, but just implying "after having a few glasses of good stuff, then the inferior wind is brought out and sure some people like myself will get a buzz on one glass and stop after two -- I'm a light weight as they say. People drink wine with every meal and build a tolerance to the level where a few glasses has no effect on them. The master of the ceremony was just commenting on the quality of the wine, it was good, probably the best he ever had. He wouldn't have commented on grape juice. Everyone probably purchased from the local vineyard and so grape juice from the same grapes would have little variance in quality or taste. Grape juice is grape juice. And another poster made an excellent point, they did not have refrigerators to keep grape juice fresh, nor did they just squeeze some for that occasion. No, this is why it was wine. Wine could be preserved, not juice! HE WOULD NOT MAKE AN ISSUE ABOUT THE QUALITY OF GRAPE JUICE AT A WEDDING. THEY DRANK WINE THAT WAS FERMENTED AT THE WEDDING -- HOW MANY WEDDINGS HAVE YOU BEEN TO? THAT'S THE MIRACLE, TO TURN WATER INTO FERMENTED WINE WHICH TAKES TIME. They could have sent the disciples to buy some grapes, take off their shoes, jump in a pile and stump some grapes for juice for that matter -- no miracle needed. But it would also have to have been harvest season.

It says that they were "...well drunk..." meaning they were satiated or full of whatever substance they had at the wedding party. It does not sound like 2 glasses to me. That simply sounds like what you want it to say. But even if you were right and 2 glasses of wine = "...well drunk...", the problem is some people cannot tolerate alcohol all that well. There are light weights who can get drunk easily.

Jesus making more intoxicating refreshments would certainly lead people to be drunk. If not, it would at least be an encouragement to any struggling alcoholic today to have an excuse that they can drink themselves into oblivion.

You said:
YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY WRONG ABOUT THE HEALTH VALUE OF WINE. IT CONTAINS RESVERATROL. THIS IS A MODERN DAY SUPER NUTRIENT THAT IS SOLD IN HEALTH FOOD STORES, AN QUALTIY ANTIOXIDANT THAT HEALS THE BODY AND HAS YOUTHFUL BENEFITS.
AGAIN, DON'T GET DRUNK IS THE MESSAGE OF THE BIBLE. It happens sometimes, but the practice and frequent intoxication is letting wine be your master. You are not in control when drunk and so this is taught, the destructive habit/addiction to avoid.

You are well meaning but this post is just not true, nice try though.

Also, please lets not pretend like alcohol has any kind of nutrition or that it is soley super healthy for you. Alcohol can be used for short term helpful medical benefits like relieving pain, killing germs, and helps to prevent coronary artery disease, etc.. But alcohol's bad effects far outweigh any truly good benefits that it can give you through constant use or abuse. For one, alcohol is habit forming and addictive. This can lead to wanting to drink more and then drunkenness. Moderately strong alcohol drinks do not have nutritiion labels on them. Why? Because they offer no nutrition because it is technically a poison or drug that your immune system has to fight off. I say it is a poison because...

"the long-term use of alcohol is capable of damaging nearly every organ and system in the body. Health effects associated with alcohol intake in large amounts include an increased risk of alcoholism, malnutrition, chronic pancreatitis, alcoholic liver disease, and cancer. In addition, damage to the central nervous system and peripheral nervous system can occur from chronic alcohol abuse."

Source:
Long-term effects of alcohol consumption - Wikipedia

For if you put alcohol in a glass and then put a dirty penny in it, the alcohol cleans the penny. If you put a piece of meat in there, it dries out the meat. Now, the alcohol does not know the difference between being inside the body vs. being outside of the body. It seeks to destroy. It's a poision or drug that will damage your body if you are not careful of your intake of it.
 
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When American fundamentalists, with an historical background of instinctive support of Prohibition, use the argument that at Cana the Lord didn't actually turn the water into real wine, the stock response of the theologically liberal is to say: Well, great that you guys agree with us for a change that it wasn't really a miracle after all!

I do not consider myself to be liberal in any way. In fact, I am against liberal theology.

As for Prohibitionism: Well, I cannot speak for anyone else, but I am an Absentionist and not a Prohibitionist.

But do not kid yourself into thinking Jesus created intoxicating wine. If He did that, then His blood would not be pure so as to cleanse us of sin. For Jesus's blood was the pure blood of the grape.
 
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faroukfarouk

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I do not consider myself to be liberal in any way. In fact, I am against liberal theology.

As for Prohibitionism: Well, I cannot speak for anyone else, but I am an Absentionist and not a Prohibitionist.

But do not kid yourself into thinking Jesus created intoxicating wine. If He did that, then His blood would not be pure so as to cleanse us of sin. For Jesus's blood was the pure blood of the grape.
So you are now saying that the Lord Jesus shed w...?

I think I'd better leave this discussion.
 
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Basil the Great

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Your position is defeated in the fact that the Bible teaches that drunkenness is a serious sin.

Galatians 5:21 (ESV) says,
"Envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God."

1 Corinthians 6:10 (ESV) says,
"Nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."

Peter says we are to be sober-minded.

"“Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.” (1 Peter 5:8).

As for drinking a little bit of wine for the infirmaties of one's stomach: This is not social drinking but it is the use of wine for medical reasons. There is a big difference between the two.

I recall reading somewhere that intentionally getting drunk is probably a grave sin.
 
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Barney

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Your position is defeated in the fact that the Bible teaches that drunkenness is a serious sin.

Galatians 5:21 (ESV) says,
"Envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God."

Jesus made a lethal amount of alcohol for a room of drunk people. We know this because the Bible lets us know they were already drunk. We know this because their taste buds were already numbed, as when people are drunk. We know this because the original supply of wine was used up. We know this because Jesus didn't merely refill the original wine vessels (which alone were sufficient to get people drunk), he called for the massive washing vessels. We know this because good wine has more alcohol than other wine (bad wine is watered-down, sweet, or vinegar). We know this because when Jesus produced bread and fish, he did so in quantities beyond the ability of the people to consume. We know this because the Bible indicates an overflowing cup is a blessing.

I think the solution is that being drunk per se is not a sin. It's not what goes into you that is a sink, but what comes out of you. In Galatians 5:21, Paul looks like he means a lifestyle of debauchery, not someone who passes a certain blood alcohol level at a wedding. The Lord himself declared it's not what goes into the mouth the defiles someone, but what comes out.
 
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Radagast

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Dictonary.com says,

"the juice, fermented or unfermented, of various other fruits or plants, used as a beverage, sauce, etc.:"

Oh, that is dishonest! You've skipped their definition of wine, and copied their definition of "gooseberry wine."

And in any case, what's important here is the definition of the Greek word.
 
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Radagast

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I am very well aware of wine making. The "must" or powder like substance on the skins of the grapes is essentially the yeast that interacts with the sugars inside the grapes and causes fermentation. No yeast or must, and no fermentation.

However, as for natural wild yeast fermentations:

Wild yeast works, but using your own yeast gives a better product.
 
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Barney

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Oh, that is dishonest! You've skipped their definition of wine, and copied their definition of "gooseberry wine."

And in any case, what's important here is the definition of the Greek word.

"Wine" if ever used for something non-alcoholic is being used loosely or figuratively. The dictionary doesn't keep itself to literal definitions. A non-alcoholic beverage is not literally wine.

But, it doesn't make any difference. The context of the Greek word shows it means alcohol, including when the Bible approves of its consumption. The Pharisees didn't accuse Jesus of being a wino for drinking grape juice.
 
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Wild yeast works, but using your own yeast gives a better product.

Yes, I am aware of that. That is why they called it wild yeast fermentations.
 
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Faithful Scuff

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But do not kid yourself into thinking Jesus created intoxicating wine. If He did that, then His blood would not be pure so as to cleanse us of sin. For Jesus's blood was the pure blood of the grape.
Support this if you can?
 
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This is why Christ made grape juice because it was a pure juice
Strong's Concordance
oinos: wine
Original Word: οἶνος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: oinos
Phonetic Spelling: (oy'-nos)
Short Definition: wine
Definition: wine.
HELPS Word-studies
3631 oínoswine made from grapes.
 
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Oh, that is dishonest! You've skipped their definition of wine, and copied their definition of "gooseberry wine."

It's not deceptive. It proves that wine can be unfermented. If certain fruits can be made into unfermented wine, then so can grapes. I will give you a clue.

and_now_you_know_the_rest_of_the_story.jpg


To the Roman world of the New Testament times, the best wines were those whose alcoholic potency had been removed by boiling or filtration. Pliny, for example, says that “wines are most beneficial (utilissimum) when all their potency has been removed by the strainer.” Similarly, Plutarch points out that wine is “much more pleasant to drink” when it “neither inflames the brain nor infests the mind or passions” because its strength has been removed through frequent filtering.

Source:
MYTHS about WINE and ALCOHOL in the BIBLE (Part 1) - Bible Christian

You said:
And in any case, what's important here is the definition of the Greek word.

The English is translated from the Greek, and last I checked most people here did not grow up in BIble times knowing how to speak and write Biblical Greek to know with 100% certainty what the Greek really says. Your best chance is looking at the English for a comparison.

Isaiah 65:8 says,
"As the new wine is found in the cluster,"

The juice inside the cluster of the grape is freshly squeezed grape juice and not an alcoholic beverage. The context says to destroy not the cluster of these grapes because there is a blessing within it. So it is referring to the grape clusters while they are still intact.
 
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