490 years Daniel 9 - my chart

Douggg

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I go with Christian Gedge's very well-researched calculations, even though he's A-mill and I'm Pre-mill.
CG's chart is based on the 457 BC command by Artaxeres in his 7th year of rule, in Ezra 7.

Do you read anything in Ezra 7 about a command regarding the rebuilding of the wall ?

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

CG's chart starts from the wrong command from Artaxeres. The correct command is in Nehemiah 2, by Artaxeres in his 20th year of rule. The rebuilding of the wall is in chapter 2, in Nehemiah 2:8... and for the wall of the city....

The starting year for the 483 years is in 445BC not 457BC.

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Challenge; find one premillennial passage in the gospel or Epistles other than from the Pharisees. Jesus taught Amillennialism and Peter preached it (the gospel of the kingdom) at Pentecost.
You will not believe it anyway, because you are already convinced you have the full picture, but because you decided that it will be funny to force me to go into it, I'll take up the challenge (only partially - because this post is going to be long enough without my going into this in detail):-

So here goes one part of it:

1 Cor 15 - note the Greek word for "then" in verse 24 and where else it is found. Then compare this with the second part of Jesus' statement in John 18:36: "But now (Greek: nun, "of present time") My kingdom is not from here." and the second part of the statement in Hebrews 2:8: "But now (Greek: nun, "of present time") we see not yet all things put under him."

21 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
22 for even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive,
23 But each in his own order: Christ the first-fruit, and afterward they who are Christ's at His coming;
24 then (Greek: eita) is the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God, even the Father; when He makes to cease all rule and all authority and power.

Let's see where else the Greek word eita in verse 24 appears in the New Testament:

Strongs: G1534
εἶτα eita i'-tah
Of uncertain affinity; a particle of succession (in time or logical enumeration) then moreover: - after that (-ward) furthermore then. See also G1899.

eita:

"And let these also first be proved; then (eita) let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless." 1 Tim 3:10

"And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward (eita), when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word’s sake, immediately they are offended." Mark 4:17

"After that (eita) he poureth water into a bason, and began to wash the disciples’ feet, and to wipe them with the towel wherewith he was girded." John 13:5

"For the earth bringeth forth fruit of herself; first the blade, then (eita) the ear, after that (eita) the full corn in the ear. But when the fruit is brought forth, immediately he putteth in the sickle, because the harvest is come." Mark 4:28-29

See also the following:

"Ask of Me, and I shall give the nations for Your inheritance; and the uttermost parts of the earth for Your possession. You shall break them with a rod of iron; You shall dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel." Ps 2:8-9

Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would fight so that I might not be delivered to the Jews. But now (Greek: nun, "of present time") My kingdom is not from here." John 18:36.

"And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever." Rev 11:15.

"When I look at Your heavens, the work of Your fingers, the moon and the stars which You have established;
what is man that You are mindful of him, and the son of man, that You visit him?
For You have made him a little lower than the angels, and have crowned him with glory and honor.
You made him rule over the works of Your hands; You have put all things under his feet:" (Ps 8:3-6).

"And God said, Let Us make man in Our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the heavens, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over all the creepers creeping on the earth." Gen 1:26

"But now (Greek: nun, "of present time") we see not yet all things put under him." Heb 2:8b

"But now (Greek: nun, "of present time") My kingdom is not from here." John 18:36b.

"And she brought forth a man child, who was to (Greek: mello), "rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne."

Strongs: G3195 μέλλω mellō mel'-lo
A strengthened form of G3199 (through the idea of expectation); to intend that is be about to be do or suffer something (of persons or things especially events; in the sense of purpose duty6
necessity probability6
possibility or hesitation): - about after that be (almost) (that which is things + which was for) to come intend was to (be) mean mind be at the point (be) ready + return shall (begin) (which that) should (after afterwards hereafter) tarry which was for will would be yet.

The Greek word mello does not mean that all of what is expected has already come to pass. Jesus is seated in heaven now at the right hand of God now and all authority in heaven and earth and under the earth belongs to Him now - but the fact that Hebrews 2:8 tells us that nun (now) "of present time" we do not YET see all things under His feet most certainly implies that He has not returned yet to ESTABLISH His rule IN FULL (unless of course we choose to ignore this REALITY).

DOES THIS PROVE A LITERAL MILLENNIUM?

No. NONE of the above PROVES EITHER a literal or symbolic millennium - but there are a great many facts and realities that make a symbolic interpretation of the millennium look pretty ridiculous (because you have to ignore reality and a great many facts in order to maintain the position).
 
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Dave L

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You will not believe it anyway, because you are already convinced you have the full picture, but because you decided that it will be funny to force me to go into it, I'll take up the challenge (only partially - because this post is going to be long enough without my going into this in detail):-

So here goes one part of it:

1 Cor 15 - note the Greek word for "then" in verse 24 and where else it is found. Then compare this with the second part of Jesus' statement in John 18:36: "But now (Greek: nun, "of present time") My kingdom is not from here." and the second part of the statement in Hebrews 2:8: "But now (Greek: nun, "of present time") we see not yet all things put under him."

21 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
22 for even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive,
23 But each in his own order: Christ the first-fruit, and afterward they who are Christ's at His coming;
24 then (Greek: eita) is the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God, even the Father; when He makes to cease all rule and all authority and power.

Let's see where else the Greek word eita in verse 24 appears in the New Testament:

Strongs: G1534
εἶτα eita i'-tah
Of uncertain affinity; a particle of succession (in time or logical enumeration) then moreover: - after that (-ward) furthermore then. See also G1899.

eita:

"And let these also first be proved; then (eita) let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless." 1 Tim 3:10

"And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward (eita), when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word’s sake, immediately they are offended." Mark 4:17

"After that (eita) he poureth water into a bason, and began to wash the disciples’ feet, and to wipe them with the towel wherewith he was girded." John 13:5

"For the earth bringeth forth fruit of herself; first the blade, then (eita) the ear, after that (eita) the full corn in the ear. But when the fruit is brought forth, immediately he putteth in the sickle, because the harvest is come." Mark 4:28-29

See also the following:

"Ask of Me, and I shall give the nations for Your inheritance; and the uttermost parts of the earth for Your possession. You shall break them with a rod of iron; You shall dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel." Ps 2:8-9

Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would fight so that I might not be delivered to the Jews. But now (Greek: nun, "of present time") My kingdom is not from here." John 18:36.

"And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever." Rev 11:15.

"When I look at Your heavens, the work of Your fingers, the moon and the stars which You have established;
what is man that You are mindful of him, and the son of man, that You visit him?
For You have made him a little lower than the angels, and have crowned him with glory and honor.
You made him rule over the works of Your hands; You have put all things under his feet:" (Ps 8:3-6).

"And God said, Let Us make man in Our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the heavens, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over all the creepers creeping on the earth." Gen 1:26

"But now (Greek: nun, "of present time") we see not yet all things put under him." Heb 2:8b

"But now (Greek: nun, "of present time") My kingdom is not from here." John 18:36b.

"And she brought forth a man child, who was to (Greek: mello), "rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne."

Strongs: G3195 μέλλω mellō mel'-lo
A strengthened form of G3199 (through the idea of expectation); to intend that is be about to be do or suffer something (of persons or things especially events; in the sense of purpose duty6
necessity probability6
possibility or hesitation): - about after that be (almost) (that which is things + which was for) to come intend was to (be) mean mind be at the point (be) ready + return shall (begin) (which that) should (after afterwards hereafter) tarry which was for will would be yet.

The Greek word mello does not mean that all of what is expected has already come to pass. Jesus is seated in heaven now at the right hand of God now and all authority in heaven and earth and under the earth belongs to Him now - but the fact that Hebrews 2:8 tells us that nun (now) "of present time" we do not YET see all things under His feet most certainly implies that He has not returned yet to ESTABLISH His rule IN FULL (unless of course we choose to ignore this REALITY).

DOES THIS PROVE A LITERAL MILLENNIUM?

No. NONE of the above PROVES EITHER a literal or symbolic millennium - but there are a great many facts and realities that make a symbolic interpretation of the millennium look pretty ridiculous (because you have to ignore reality and a great many facts in order to maintain the position).
Millennialism is a Pharisee doctrine. They expected it to appear in the times of the Roman Empire. But the kingdom that came was spiritual that only the born again could see. Jesus taught this spiritual kingdom instead and they killed him because of it.
 
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CG's chart is based on the 457 BC command by Artaxeres in his 7th year of rule, in Ezra 7.

Do you read anything in Ezra 7 about a command regarding the rebuilding of the wall ?

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

CG's chart starts from the wrong command from Artaxeres. The correct command is in Nehemiah 2, by Artaxeres in his 20th year of rule. The rebuilding of the wall is in chapter 2, in Nehemiah 2:8... and for the wall of the city....

The starting year for the 483 years is in 445BC not 457BC.

View attachment 279722
There is a much greater picture of cycles of seven that the 70 weeks you mention is part of (and the final part of). It wouldn't be right for me to say more because it was not my own research and I would end up doing a spoiler on Christian Gedge's book "The Atonement Clock" by bringing up exactly how we can know when the final 70 weeks started. All I can say is the book gives a much deeper and greater picture involving the Bblical calendar + astronomical and agricultural cycles in Israel, and the Feasts - and the cycles begin way before the final cycle of 70 weeks which Daniel is told will be the time till the coming of Messiah. The book's dates are accurate and in the book you'll see why.

Exact dates should not matter to us nearly 2,000 years later to the extent that there is ill feeling about disagreements though, so I hope I'm not annoying you but saying I don't agree with the chart in the OP.
 
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Zao is life

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Millennialism is a Pharisee doctrine. They expected it to appear in the times of the Roman Empire. But the kingdom that came was spiritual that only the born again could see. Jesus taught this spiritual kingdom instead and they killed him because of it.
Millennial-ism is God's doctrine and God knew before all time the Pharisees would reject the true Messiah. If Christ's kingdom is only spiritual then it has nothing to do with God's creation.
 
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Dave L

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Millennial-ism is God's doctrine and God knew before all time the Pharisees would reject the true Messiah. If Christ's kingdom is only spiritual then it has nothing to do with God's creation.
When Jesus taught the spiritual kingdom, all physical kingdom prophecies became symbolic of spiritual truth. To claim a physical kingdom instead is to reject the gospel of the Kingdom Jesus preached.
 
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When Jesus taught the spiritual kingdom, all physical kingdom prophecies became symbolic of spiritual truth. To claim a physical kingdom instead is to reject the gospel of the Kingdom Jesus preached.
To claim what you just asserted is to reject half of God's purpose. You can't keep spiritual and physical separated like you do after Christ's return - whether or not you believe in a literal millennium.
 
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Dave L

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To claim what you just asserted is to reject half of God's purpose. You can't keep spiritual and physical separated like you do after Christ's return - whether or not you believe in a literal millennium.
You need to search for a physical kingdom in Jesus' teachings. It's not there. Peter preached the same gospel of the kingdom at Pentecost updated with the message of the cross. No mention of anything but a spiritual kingdom. That's the gospel you need to believe, not the Pharisee version of those who walk by sight seek after.
 
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You need to search for a physical kingdom in Jesus' teachings. It's not there. Peter preached the same gospel of the kingdom at Pentecost updated with the message of the cross. No mention of anything but a spiritual kingdom. That's the gospel you need to believe, not the Pharisee version of those who walk by sight seek after.
He said it's not here for now: "..but now (Greek: nun, "of present time") my Kingdom is not from hence".

There is also no such thing as a "spiritual" resurrection in the Bible:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Anz52tcoCHMOoYuAgfDnC19vuH1lZEiT/view?usp=sharing
 
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Dave L

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Flesh and blood cannot enter it? It comes without observation? It is everlasting, not 1000 years long?
Not this flesh and blood - it has to be physically (bodily) resurrected first:

1 Cor 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Cor 15:54 But when this corruptible shall put on incorruption, and when this mortal shall put on immortality, then will take place the word that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Cor 15:55 O death, where is your sting? O grave, where is your victory?"

When will this happen, do you think? When Paul said it would? Or when others say it did?

How does this happen, do you think? Is it not because we share in Christ's resurrection through the Spirit of Christ in our spirit (which we received from above through birth from above by the Spirit of Christ), we became body, soul AND spirit - yet our body will die?
 
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Dave L

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Not this flesh and blood - it has to be physically (bodily) resurrected first:

1 Cor 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Cor 15:54 But when this corruptible shall put on incorruption, and when this mortal shall put on immortality, then will take place the word that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Cor 15:55 O death, where is your sting? O grave, where is your victory?"

When will this happen, do you think? When Paul said it would? Or when others say it did?

How does this happen, do you think? Is it not because we share in Christ's resurrection through the Spirit of Christ in our spirit (which we received from above through birth from above by the Spirit of Christ), we became body, soul AND spirit - yet our body will die?
Only the born again can see the kingdom..............
 
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Only the born again can see the kingdom..............
.. but you can only see half of it so if you're implying something in the above statement, your words will come back to you only on the day you have to face the embarrassment of being corrected by the millennial Kingdom of Christ.

Never mind, I will be too concerned about all the things that no doubt will have embarrassed me to be laughing at your embarrassment.
 
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Dave L

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.. but you can only see half of it so if you're implying something in the above statement, your words will come back to you only on the day you have to face the embarrassment of being corrected by the millennial Kingdom of Christ.

Never mind, I will be too concerned about all the things that no doubt will have embarrassed me to be laughing at your embarrassment.
The Millennium is a Pharisee doctrine condemned as heresy by the Council of Ephesus in 431. Jesus refuted it many times in the gospels.
 
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The Millennium is a Pharisee doctrine condemned as heresy by the Council of Ephesus in 431. Jesus refuted it many times in the gospels.
Jesus only refuted it in the imagination of those who only see half the Kingdom of Christ and ignore all of what He said (for example when He completed His statement to Pilate with the words "but of present time My Kingdom is not from hence". On top of this of course, you have to ignore the Revelation or decide it means something Jesus did not mean (it's HIS Revelation).

I don't care about church councils that suppress the truth in their unrighteousness. Only Catholics and maybe Orthodox do.

PS: We've taken this thread way off topic so we should stop this discussion.
 
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Dave L

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Jesus only refuted it in the imagination of those who only see half the Kingdom of Christ and ignore all of what He said (for example when He completed His statement to Pilate with the words "but of present time My Kingdom is not from hence". On top of this of course, you have to ignore the Revelation or decide it means something Jesus did not mean (it's HIS Revelation).

I don't care about church councils that suppress the truth in their unrighteousness. Only Catholics and maybe Orthodox do.
His kingdom is not of this world?
 
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Dave L

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You're right. I gave up on you and all A-mills long ago.
Jesus is Amillennial. The Pharisees are millennial. Did you know third temple sacrifices with cause great apostasy that Even if you plan on it? cannot be forgiven?
 
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