2Thessalonians2:7 explained

[Riberra]

The coming of the Lord in 2thessalonians2:1 is not called the Second Coming in the text.

By convention the term -The second coming- was coined by the scholars to makes reference to Jesus returning on the Earth ie -The Parousia-.The text in 2 Thessalonians 2:1 say -by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ-....we know that this not makes reference to the first coming of Jesus 2,000 years ago but to The Parousia Ie Jesus returning on the Earth to establish His Kingdom as promised.

The coming of the Lord in 1thessalonians4 is to the air, not down to the earth.

The coming of Jesus in Matthew 24:29-31 is in the CLOUDS in the AIR ,sometime before that Jesus touch down to the Earth.

There are two other comings mentioned after Jesus's crucifixion that have already taken place, neither of which is to the earth.
There was Jesus's prophecy that some living right then would see him "coming" into his kingdom.

Probably you make reference to -those who have pierced Him will see Jesus in His Kingdom.-
This make reference the resurrection of the wicked at the Great White Throne Judgment after the Millennium.

There was the One like the Son of man "coming" on the clouds of heaven to the Ancient of Days in Daniel 7.

This make reference to the resurrection of all the believers unto the coming of Jesus AFTER the tribulation

 

[Riberra]

1 Cor 15: 51-52 says the Last Trump. That occurs on the Feast of Trumpets. It is the harvest of Israel as evidenced by the 144000 first fruits. That ties to Matt 24:31. It happens immediately after the tribulation.......a post trib rapture. The very day Lot leaves Sodom destruction comes.

Reread the text of 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 the text is exclusively about the resurrection of the dead believers and the changing of the believers still alive ...

1 Cor 15
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and WE shall be changed.

**We:refers to the changing of the believers still alive on the Earth... The believers are the Jews and Gentiles from all nations all around the World who have accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour !

The church will be raptured at the First Trump with occurs on Pentecost. It will be a pre trib rapture. Noah is in the ark 7 days before the flood.

Nowhere in the text about our caught up and gathering in the clouds to meet Jesus in the air there is mention of a FIRST TRUMP,where in Paul epistles to the Thessalonians you have find that ???

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

Incorrect. The Last Trump is blown on the Feast of Trumpets.....the fall harvest feast of Israel. The TRUMP OF GOD is the voice of God.

Glad that you bring on that the TRUMP OF GOD is the voice of God...because that is excatly the reason why i have said that the Last Trump of 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 /The Trump of God of 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17/and a great sound of a trumpet in Matthew 24:29-31 refers to the same trump which is the voice of God sounding the rising of the dead believers ,our changing into immortality and our caught up gathering unto Jesus at His Coming ie The Parousia.

If you notice the 7 trumpets of Revelation are all sounded by angels while that in Matthew 24:29-31 it refers only to -a great sound of a trumpet (Voice of God )-

Matthew 24:31
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

[Douggg]

By convention the term -The second coming- was coined by the scholars to makes reference to Jesus returning on the Earth ie -The Parousia-.The text in 2 Thessalonians 2:1 say -by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ-....we know that this not makes reference to the first coming of Jesus 2,000 years ago but to The Parousia Ie Jesus returning on the Earth to establish His Kingdom as promised.

It just means "coming" in the context of the verse for the gathering. It doesn't say return to earth. It doesn't say Second Coming. In Acts 1:11, a different greek word is used for what is definitely his return, ercomai

11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

The coming of Jesus in Matthew 24:29-31 is in the CLOUDS in the AIR ,sometime before that Jesus touch down to the Earth.

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The greek word for coming is that verse is also ercomai
Do you expect the angels to translate you?

Probably you make reference to -those who have pierced Him will see Jesus in His Kingdom.-
This make reference the resurrection of the wicked at the Great White Throne Judgment after the Millennium.

No, Jesus was talking to his disciples in Matthew 16:28. It was fulfilled as the disciples saw Jesus ascend into the cloud out of their sight in Acts 1. In Daniel 7:13, is his arrival in heaven, to receive his kingdom in Daniel 7:14.

The prophecy......
Matthew 16:
28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Some of the disciples saw him leave the earth to go to heaven......
Act 1:
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Jesus arriving in heaven to receive his kingdom........
Daniel 7:
13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

 

[Riberra]

It just means "coming" in the context of the verse for the gathering. It doesn't say return to earth. It doesn't say Second Coming. In Acts 1:11, a different greek word is used for what is definitely his return, ercomai

Can you tell us what is the Greek word used for -coming- in 2 Thessalonians 2:1 -by the COMING of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering unto Him. It is very unlikely that there is only in 2 Thessalonians 2:1 that the word coming have a different meaning than anywhere else when the word coming related to Jesus's Coming is mentionned.
I believe that the word used in Acts 1:11 means will RETURN. Shall so come (ercomai/will return) in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Do you expect the angels to translate you?

Jesus will translate us ,the angels will caught us and gather us to the place that Jesus will be in the air at His coming which will be over Israel.

No, Jesus was talking to his disciples in Matthew 16:28. It was fulfilled as the disciples saw Jesus ascend into the cloud out of their sight in Acts 1. In Daniel 7:13, is his arrival in heaven, to receive his kingdom in Daniel 7:14.

Note that the disciples saw Jesus ascend into the clouds but the disciples have not ascended with Jesus to Heaven while they were alive....
The kingdom where the Saints will be ... mentionned in Daniel 7 will come after that Jesus will defeat the little horn and his armies (Revelation 17:12-14) ( Revelation 19:11-21 )
Daniel 7
24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

 

[vinsight4u]

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[Postvieww]

What is happening at the end of Revelation 8?
What does it say?
Does it mention woe due to trumpets or due to vials or both?

Revelation 8:13
And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

 

[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[Postvieww]

Right, no vials have ever been poured as to full strength God's
wrath. Rev. 15:1 refers to the seven last plagues. So there is
at least one other set of seven plagues that will come and end
first.

I just answered your question with scripture, we are probably not in agreement on the order of Revelation.

The 7 last plagues are the 7 vials. There are no other set of 7 plagues.

 

[Postvieww]

trumpets sound - 7 plagues come
they end
Rev. 18 shows His people leave Babylon before more plagues
come. her plagues -the plagues for Babylon and her followers

Where are the seven angels at the time of the trumpets?
At the time of the vials -they are told to Go.

It is impossible for the trumpets and the vials to occur together.
The trumpets will see the time of the wrath of satan before the 7th one.
The vials will be totally the wrath of God.

There are many overlapping events in Revelation this book is not in complete chronological order.

Seal 6, Trumpet 7, and vial 7 are all at the end. There is much evidence to support this.

 

[Choose Wisely]

Nowhere in the text about our caught up and gathering in the clouds to meet Jesus in the air there is mention of a FIRST TRUMP,where in Paul epistles to the Thessalonians you have find that ???

Do we have to find the FIRST TRUMP in Paul's epistles to the Thessalonians? The FIRST TRUMP is blown on Pentecost, a harvest feast. The FIRST TRUMP is a shofar, rams horn.....and is considered the left horn of the ram that was caught in the thicket for Abraham to use as a sacrifice. The church will be caught up at the blowing of the FIRST TRUMP blown on Pentecost. The LAST TRUMP is considered the right horn of the ram. It is blown on the Feast of Trumpets, the fall harvest feast when the ELECT will be raptured.

 

[Postvieww]

Do we have to find the FIRST TRUMP in Paul's epistles to the Thessalonians? The FIRST TRUMP is blown on Pentecost, a harvest feast. The FIRST TRUMP is a shofar, rams horn.....and is considered the left horn of the ram that was caught in the thicket for Abraham to use as a sacrifice. The church will be caught up at the blowing of the FIRST TRUMP blown on Pentecost. The LAST TRUMP is considered the right horn of the ram. It is blown on the Feast of Trumpets, the fall harvest feast when the ELECT will be raptured.

Choose Wisely said:

Do we have to find the FIRST TRUMP in Paul's epistles to the Thessalonians?

Somewhere in the New Testament would help, where do you find it?

The FIRST TRUMP is blown on Pentecost, a harvest feast. The FIRST TRUMP is a shofar, rams horn.....and is considered the left horn of the ram that was caught in the thicket for Abraham to use as a sacrifice. The church will be caught up at the blowing of the FIRST TRUMP blown on Pentecost.

1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Scripture for the church being caught up at "the first trump"?

The LAST TRUMP is considered the right horn of the ram. It is blown on the Feast of Trumpets, the fall harvest feast when the ELECT will be raptured.

How do you define elect and what scripture do you use for that?

In the New Testament the church is the elect.

Romans 8:33, Colossians 3:12, 2 Timothy 2:10, Titus 1:1, 1 Peter 1:2, 2 John 1:1, 2 John 1:13

 

[Postvieww]

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.


Rev 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

6th seal 1. Great earthquake 2. The great day of his wrath is come 3. Every mountain moved 4. Every island moved

7th trumpet 1. Earthquake 2. Thy wrath is come 3. Lightnings 4. Voices 5. Thunderings 6. Great hail

7th vial 1. Great earthquake 2. Fiercness of his wrath 3. Lightnings 4. Voices 5. Thunders 6. Great hail 7. Mountains were not found 8. Every island fled


The evidence is substantial these events overlap in some way. Many claim this cannot be because the book is chronological. If it is not chronological these events can overlap. Many claim these events happen more that one time. If Revelation is chronological that is true. If it is not chronological all of these can refer to the same event. What is the evidence the book is chronological? There are many more reasons that just what is posted above Revelation is not chronological.


Rev 6:17 “the great day of his wrath is come”

Rev 16:14 “great day of God Almighty”

Two great days or one?


Rev 6:17 “wrath is come”

Rev 11:18 “thy wrath is come”

Is this the same wrath?


7th seal Rev 8:5 “voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.”

7th trumpet Rev 11:19 “there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail”.

7th vial Rev16:18 “there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake”

Are all the same event? I believe they are.


6th trumpet Rev 9:14 “the great river Euphrates”

6th vial Rev 16:12 “the great river Euphrates” Same event?


Return of Christ at 7th trumpet Rev 11:18 “them that fear thy name, small and great”

Return of Christ Rev 19:5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.

Same wording , same event.


Rev 14:8 Babylon is fallen is fallen

Rev 18:2 Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen

Same event? If all is chronological how many times can Babylon fall?

What is your evidence all is chronological?

 

[Riberra]

[Rev 14:8 Babylon is fallen is fallen

Rev 18:2 Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen

Same event? If all is chronological how many times can Babylon fall?

Only one time ,but its judgement and punishment happen only in the timing of Revelation 16:19, the details about Babylon destruction are described in Rev 18.
Revelation 16:15 Jesus come as a thief > Day of the Lord begin >7 Th vial poured out (Revelation 16:17) Total destruction of the cities around the world ....Revelation 16:19...The day of vengeange and wrath extend (scope) untill the visible appearence of Jesus for the armageddon battle.....Revelation 19.
You bring good points.
Not want a hard heated debate,i just present some thought and discuss what you think about the possibilty.

 

[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[Riberra]

The three frogs are going out to the world to deceive people.
God lets a warning go out from Him. They have to keep their
garments. This is because dead people at this point will not
get eternal life clothes. God is not warning the church. The
church left at the 7th trumpet.

Can you show us where in Revelation it is said that the church will be taken out of the earth to Heaven at the 7th trumpet or at the 6th seal that you say is the same event that the 7th trumpet?

At that time, the wicked were saying, Peace
and safety -which they will not do under the vials of God's
wrath.

Check out the news and you will realise that we are not living in a time of peace and SAFETY upon the Earth.

The time of peace and safety will be bringed by the beast...the vials will just exacerbate their desire to kill every person related with God ie the Christians those (true Christians/Saints) who will have still refused to take the mark...

Instead of being a frightening person, the AC/ Beast will be greatly honored, respected, and loved by the majority of the world. He will also be accepted as the prophesied "Messiah" to rule the world in peace and prosperity. When [his] Anti-Christian Kingdom is finally destroyed, the world will not rejoice in thanksgiving for their release from oppression and Satanic control. They will do just the opposite. People will “weep and mourn” over Babylon’s collapse (Revelation 18:11). They will “bewail” and “lament” because this kingdom of human excellence and perfection has come to an end. Trade and craft will have reached dazzling heights of prosperity under the “Beast.” Culture and the fine arts will show the apex of human accomplishment during his reign.

 

[Postvieww]

Only one time ,but its judgement and punishment happen only in the timing of Revelation 16:19, the details about Babylon destruction are described in Rev 18.
Revelation 16:15 Jesus come as a thief > Day of the Lord begin >7 Th vial poured out (Revelation 16:17) Total destruction of the cities around the world ....Revelation 16:19...The day of vengeange and wrath extend (scope) untill the visible appearence of Jesus for the armageddon battle.....Revelation 19.
You bring good points.
Not want a hard heated debate,i just present some thought and discuss what you think about the possibilty.

No hard debate I believe you and I agree on far more than we disagree on. I realize I am in the minority opinion here Since I’ve been on this forum I believe Baberean is the only one who really agreed in some way with some of what I’ve put forward here, but then I’ve seen no real refutation either. I’m convinced the evidence is overwhelming. Can I be wrong, of course I can. You’ve been around here long enough to remember some of my debates with our friend Lamad. I can still hear him say “John’s God given order in Revelation” and my response was always the same , I believe John wrote it down just as he saw it, not actually in the order it will unfold. If you were writing about 3 different events , one in the USA, one in Israel and one in Japan and they all were happening at the same moment would you jump back and forth and jumble them all up or would you describe each individually?

Actually I’m convinced Mattew 24:29-31 is the sixth seal. Some make the case that Jesus’s description of endtime events in much of Matthew 24 lines up with seal 1 thru 6. I actually believe we are in or at the door of the 5th seal right now. Now with my next statement I will really lose a lot of people, I also believe at least 4 trumpets have already sounded maybe even 5 and the stage is being set for world war 3 and trumpet 6. There is much evidence that lines up with this as well. I‘ve written about much of it, and it usually gets ignored but that’s ok we will see soon if any of this has any merit.

The way I believe these things line up is this, the seals are an overview and started long ago and are a general description of times and events. The trumpets started I believe quite possibly with World War 1 and other trumpets have been blown since that time and major world events line up with amazing accuracy, but most reject the idea. I believe the vials which we are told is the wrath of God Rev 16:1. They all start sometime into the tribulation, because the first one has to do with punishment for those who take the mark. The vials will happen much more quickly than the seals or trumpets and all seals, trumpets and vials will end with the coming of Christ and Armageddon.

Unlike our preterist friends who believe most of this was fulfilled in 70 AD, I believe we are seeing much of it unfold right before our eyes and in our more recent past. Like everyone else on this forum I just post what I believe and try to explain why and let the chips fall where they may. Bottom line I believe we are closer than many Christians are willing to accept. God bless and thanks for your stand for truth.

 

[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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