2Thessalonians2:7 explained

[Luke17:37]

I think you got a lot bigger problem in that you are not.... watching, accompanied by prayer that Jesus come soon to take you out of the world. The promise is there in Luke 21:34-36 to escape, but you apparently want to be right about some rapture timing theory more than you want to escape. That's what I think.

See, you are not even praying to Jesus to take you out of the world. And are encouraging your fellow Christian to do likewise. Do you think you are helping them? What you are doing is telling them not to have faith in Jesus. I don't care about the post trib theory. I am sticking with Jesus, his instructions, and hope in Him.

34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

So, according to what is written in verse 36, what makes you accounted worthy to escape? If you don't believe it, not watching for it, and not praying for it. Your problem is a lot bigger than arguing with me.

Your escape is sure if you are to die first and hypothetical if there were a Church translation before the worst of Tribulation is upon us. The hypothetical doesn't fit the whole counsel of Scripture and isn't taught straightforwardly.

I'm not advocating a person not to pray they will escape but I encourage people not to believe in a pre-tribulation rapture (or mid-tribulation) as an escape.

I am convinced that assuming the church won't be here can be very detrimental to a person's faith. The five foolish virgins apparently assumed the bridegroom wouldn't tarry so late; otherwise, they would have brought enough oil to last them all night.

As for my prayer life, you aren't in my personal relationship with God so don't go there.

 

[Luke17:37]

Oh.....I can produce plenty of scriptures that show a pretrib rapture.......most of which you have probably never heard before. So just give me a chance. All you need to do is read the scripture straight forward and EXACTLY what is says.

As for me....you are wrong. I was a post trib believer......and still am. However, the error in my logic was believing that because I could prove that there was post rapture......that meant there was not a pre trib rapture. Things just never added up until I understood the parable of the fig tree and further understood the feasts I of Israel. Then i understood how after giving a timeline in Matt 24 it was reiterated that IN AN HOUR YOU THINK NOT.....THE SON OF MAN IS COMING.

I have studied the whole Bible. There's nothing written in it that I haven't read.

I understand the parable of the fig tree to be about all the things Jesus described in Matthew 24 (or Luke 21, or Mark 13) leading up to Jesus' return and not about Israel. Israel definitely hasn't budded spiritually yet (she's still mostly blind). This blindness will continue until the Tribulation, basically, because it's tribulation that will soften their hearts and cause them to seek the Lord (Hosea 5:15).

We can have a pretty good understanding about the general time frame of Christ's return without knowing the exact hour. This will be more clear when the Tribulation starts.

A post-Trib believer who argues for pre-Trib... wow. Why?

 

[Douggg]

Your escape is sure if you are to die first and hypothetical if there were a Church translation before the worst of Tribulation is upon us. The hypothetical doesn't fit the whole counsel of Scripture and isn't taught straightforwardly.

It is taught straightforwardly, in Luke 21:34-36, but you don't believe it.

I'm not advocating a person not to pray they will escape but I encourage people not to believe in a pre-tribulation rapture (or mid-tribulation) as an escape.

Same thing.

I am convinced that assuming the church won't be here can be very detrimental to a person's faith. The five foolish virgins apparently assumed the bridegroom wouldn't tarry so late; otherwise, they would have brought enough oil to last them all night.

How can it be detrimental to a person's faith if they are believing what Jesus said? No, what you are saying is a long standing false argument by post trib as rationale to buttress your post trib view as being right. I've heard it for most of my 67 years - it is baloney.

As for my prayer life, you aren't in my personal relationship with God so don't go there.

I asked you, in accordance with these verses....

34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

So, according to what is written in verse 36, what makes you accounted worthy to escape? If you don't believe it, not watching for it, and not praying for it. What is your answer?

Matthew 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

You think not the Son of man cometh (the Lord's coming and our gathering unto him in 2thesslonians2:1) to be timed anything but post-trib, right ?

 

[Luke17:37]

Your escape is sure if you are to die first and hypothetical if there were a Church translation before the worst of Tribulation is upon us. The hypothetical doesn't fit the whole counsel of Scripture and isn't taught straightforwardly.

It is taught straightforwardly, in Luke 21:34-36, but you don't believe it.

No, it isn't. Straightforward would be something like, "Jesus will come to the sky and translate the believers who are alive prior to the start of the Tribulation..." It does not necessitate pre-wrath rapture, since a Christian could simple die before the hardest parts of the Tribulation (the last 3.5 years, when the mark is being enforced). Another means of "escape" is being one of those protected believers living in the wilderness who Satan isn't permitted to kill. I think these are or include many of the 144,000 who are given the special deal of God in Revelation 7:1-8.

Revelation 12:13-17
13 Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. 14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. 15 So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood. 16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

I'm not advocating a person not to pray they will escape but I encourage people not to believe in a pre-tribulation rapture (or mid-tribulation) as an escape.

Same thing.

No. Praying for death before it starts and trusting that the church is destined to a supernatural translation before the most awful time of Tribulation in the history of the planet are way different.

How can it be detrimental to a person's faith if they are believing what Jesus said? No, what you are saying is a long standing false argument by post trib as rationale to buttress your post trib view as being right. I've heard it for most of my 67 years - it is baloney.

It can be detrimental if they are counting on something Jesus did not promise. Some will fall away on account of persecution and the pervasive wickedness. Others while waiting (Luke 18:7-8) for the Lord's vengeance. Others will fall away because of unbelief concerning several Scriptures, perhaps also because they haven't seen His coming (2 Peter 3:3-9). Others fall away on account of false Christs, false prophets and false returns.

Suit yourself. I can't force anyone to believe.

Matthew 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

You think not the Son of man cometh (the Lord's coming and our gathering unto him in 2thesslonians2:1) to be timed anything but post-trib, right ?

I don't believe the Lord's coming and our gathering to Him can happen any time other than post-tribulation. That doesn't mean I believe we will know the exact hour.

Bye, Dougg.

 

[Douggg]

I don't believe the Lord's coming and our gathering to Him can happen any time other than post-tribulation. That doesn't mean I believe we will know the exact hour.

I don't think that is what is being meant in that verse.

 

[Postvieww]

Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.


However you interpret this verse here are some facts.


What this verse actually says:

1. Watch

2. pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.


What this verse does not say:

1. The church has a get out of jail free card for the tribulation.

2. Every born again believer will be accounted worthy to escape.

3. How those that are found worthy will escape.

4. A pre-trib rapture is that method of escape.


Whatever you think it means there are 2 conditions.

1. That you watch.

2. That you pray always that ye MAY be accounted worthy.

 

[Riberra]

You seem to believe that BEING SAVED (SALVATION) by accepting Jesus Christ as our Lord and Saviour means being taken out of the Earth to Heaven while you are still alive to escape from the time of trouble and rule of the beast during the tribulation....Is that right ?

No.

What is the first thing who come in your mind when you read a sentence like -the hope of SALVATION- and
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain SALVATION by our Lord Jesus Christ, ?

1 Thessalonians 5:8-9
8 -But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of SALVATION.

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain SALVATION by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, WE SHOULD LIVE TOGETHER WITH HIM.
.......
17 Pray without ceasing.

18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the WILL of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.

19 Quench not the Spirit.

20 Despise not prophesyings.

21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

Why does Jesus say "watch and pray always that ye may be accounted worthy to escape.. AND TO STAND BEFORE THE SON OF MAN ?.

Do you notice that pray always is also used in 1 Thessalonians 5:17 about our Salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ....
And watch:
1 Thessalonians 5:6
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us WATCH and be sober.

 

[Douggg]

What is the first thing who come in your mind when you read a sentence like -the hope of SALVATION- and
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain SALVATION by our Lord Jesus Christ, ?

1 Thessalonians 5:8-9
8 -But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of SALVATION.

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain SALVATION by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, WE SHOULD LIVE TOGETHER WITH HIM.
.......
17 Pray without ceasing.

18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the WILL of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.

19 Quench not the Spirit.

20 Despise not prophesyings.

21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.


Do you notice that pray always is also used in 1 Thessalonians 5:17 about our Salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ....
And watch:
1 Thessalonians 5:6
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us WATCH and be sober.

Paul is saying how to be ready for coming of our Lord (2thessaloniians2:1) to gather us unto himself - at any time rapture....

Matthew 24:
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh (the coming or our Lord and our gathering unto him, 2thessalonians2:1) anytime rapture view


1Thessalonians5:
1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

Luke 21:
34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

2thessalonians2:
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he [the Lord Jesus Christ] who now letteth will let, until he [Jesus, the body of Christ, the church] be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed [the Day of the Lord starts], whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

 

[Riberra]

Paul is saying how to be ready for coming of our Lord (2thessaloniians2:1) to gather us unto himself - at any time rapture....

Thus, you are saying that you believe that being saved (salvation) by our Lord Jesus Christ mean being taken out of the Earth to Heaven while you are still alive to escape from the time of trouble and rule of the beast during the Tribulation.

Nothing else ?

 

[Douggg]

Thus, you are saying that you believe that being saved (salvation) by our Lord Jesus Christ mean being taken out of the Earth to Heaven while you are still alive to escape from the time of trouble and rule of the beast during the Tribulation.

My answer is I don't know. However, being saved alone, may not be what it takes to be counted worthy to escape.

Being saved means a person doesn't have to spend eternity separated from God. Someone not heeding what Jesus said regarding the rapture, taking an opposite stance, mocking it, saying it is untrue, couldn't possibly happen, preaching to others that the church will go through the great tribulation - may not be taken (should it happen prior to) - and could end up going through the great tribulation, live through it (or be martyred), die in the millennium of old age, and not receive their eternal incorruptible bodies until the Great White Throne judgement where their names will be found written in the book of life.

My answer is still, I don't know.

If I were you, I would become anytime rapture view. It doesn't mean pre-trib, mid-trib, pre-wrath - so you don't have to convert to those. Just believe the rapture could possibly happen at anytime between now and when it actually does.

It seems to me that in your post #65 based on my post #64, you got that understanding nailed as a possibility. Which falls under the category of anytime rapture view.

 

[Riberra]

If I were you, I would become anytime rapture view. It doesn't mean pre-trib, mid-trib, pre-wrath - so you don't have to convert to those. Just believe the rapture could possibly happen at anytime between now and when it actually does.

It seems to me that in your post #65 based on my post #64, you got that understanding nailed as a possibility. Which falls under the category of anytime rapture view.

Jesus promised us the resurrection of the dead believers and a caught up and gathering of both the resurrected believers and the believers still alive unto Him at His Coming .... You believe in multiple resurrections of the dead believers and at least 2 Coming of Jesus yet to come -one coming before the tribulation and the other coming after the tribulation -while the Bible say that there is only one Coming of Jesus yet to come AFTER the Tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). i think that you are on your way for a big deception with your any time rapture view...But hey buddy, if that view makes you feel good and happy to the point that you pray and hope that the tribulation begin soon, go for it !

1 Thessalonians 5:1-3
1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

Have you heard in the news recently that we are heading to a time of peace and safety upon the Earth anytime/soon ?

I forget:
***You must be aware that the belief in the "rapture" (yes there will be a caught up in the clouds but not at any time) is not the requirement to obtain Salvation...- keeping the FAITH in Jesus is the requirement.... Think about it.

 

[Choose Wisely]

A post-Trib believer who argues for pre-Trib... wow. Why?

To only believe in a post trib rapture left too many holes that I could not explain. The first of which I have already mentioned. I think it is quite odd that we are told.........immediately after the tribulation, the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And THEN shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven.

Then after that perfect timing description we are told.........for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

The only way that can make any sense is if there is more to the story. That more is understanding the parable of the fig tree. The fig tree has two crops, the breba crop which occurs in late spring or early summer and the main crop which happens in the fall. That tells me there will be two harvests. The harvest of the Gentiles and the harvest of the 12 tribes.....the barley and wheat loaves that are presented on Pentecost.

Then we note this verse in Matt 24
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark

Then when we look at when Noah entered the ark, we see that he entered into the ark 7 days before the flood.

Gen 7
9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.


10 And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.

Do I believe in a post trib rapture..........Yes. But there is much more to this story. Study the feasts of Israel, study the harvests.

 

[Riberra]

To only believe in a post trib rapture left too many holes that I could not explain. The first of which I have already mentioned. I think it is quite odd that we are told.........immediately after the tribulation, the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And THEN shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven.

Then after that perfect timing description we are told.........

If that description is so perfect ,to the point that you think that you can actually pinpoint the exact timing of the return of Jesus ,can you tell us the year,the month,the day and the hour of Jesus' return ?

 

[Choose Wisely]

If that description is so perfect ,to the point that you think that you can actually pinpoint the exact timing of the return of Jesus ,can you tell us the year,the month,the day and the hour of Jesus' return ?

What I am saying appears to be going way over your head. Tell you what, you tell me when the sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light and the stars fall from heaven and I will narrow down time of ONE OF THE DAYS OF THE SON OF MAN.

 

[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[Riberra]

What I am saying appears to be going way over your head.

Not at all !
What you wrote about the passage in question was rather innapropriate.

Tell you what, you tell me when the sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light and the stars fall from heaven and I will narrow down time of ONE OF THE DAYS OF THE SON OF MAN.

That is better.
Now you begin to understand that the passage in Matthew 24:29-31 mean that only when we will see that happening we will know for sure that this is Jesus Second Coming (The Parousia). We cannot expect Jesus Coming before that.

*Note that the stars falling from Heaven refers to the angels that Jesus will send to gather the elects

 

[Choose Wisely]

That is better.
Now you begin to understand that the passage in Matthew 24:29-31 mean that only when we will see that happening we will know for sure that this is Jesus Second Coming (The Parousia). We cannot expect Jesus Coming before that.

Actually Jesus will come in the clouds before this coming.

Not at all !
*Note that the stars falling from Heaven refers to the angels that Jesus will send to gather the elects

Nice..........the stars do represent angels.