2Thessalonians2:7 explained

[Riberra]

Actually Jesus will come in the clouds before this coming.

Can you provide the Bible verses saying that Jesus will come in the clouds BEFORE the Tribulation ?

The mention of Jesus coming in the clouds is written only in Matthew 24:29-31.
Matthew 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

 

[Luke17:37]

Matthew 24:30-31
30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

6th seal

The scroll isn't even open then as one seal remains.

I believe Jesus returns at the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15-19) and 7th bowl (Revelation 16:17-21) (one return).

 

[Douggg]

Jesus promised us the resurrection of the dead believers and a caught up and gathering of both the resurrected believers and the believers still alive unto Him at His Coming .... You believe in multiple resurrections of the dead believers and at least 2 Coming of Jesus yet to come -one coming before the tribulation and the other coming after the tribulation -while the Bible say that there is only one Coming of Jesus yet to come AFTER the Tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). i think that you are on your way for a big deception with your any time rapture view...But hey buddy, if that view makes you feel good and happy to the point that you pray and hope that the tribulation begin soon, go for it !

I believe not as you have packaged it. Why do you knowingly misrepresent me? It doesn't make what you believe any more right.

What I believe there is one coming of the Lord in the manner of no man knows the day nor hour, at a time we think not, for the gathering unto himself, to take believers to heaven, to later return with Him at His Glorious Revealing to the World as Lord of Lords and King of Kings, God Almighty, at what is called His Second Coming, as the 10,000's of his saints, the bride of Christ.

And that His Second Coming will be known for certain, at the end of the 7 years, 1335 days from when the AOD image is set up to be worshiped. Which His Second Coming is preceded by the sign of the Son of Man in heaven, which every eye will see, before He descends down to earth, with his saints, to execute judgment on them gathered to make war on Him, and to rescue the Jews, who will have become Christians during the second half of the seven years, by splitting the mount of olives in half, making a valley for them to pass through in their current bodies, not by rapture, which will have taken place before the Day of the Lord begins.

 

[Choose Wisely]

Can you provide the Bible verses saying that Jesus will come in the clouds BEFORE the Tribulation ?

The mention of Jesus coming in the clouds is written only in Matthew 24:29-31.
Matthew 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Sure, no problem.
1 Thes 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

[Postvieww]

Paul is saying how to be ready for coming of our Lord (2thessaloniians2:1) to gather us unto himself - at any time rapture....

Matthew 24:
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh (the coming or our Lord and our gathering unto him, 2thessalonians2:1) anytime rapture view


1Thessalonians5:
1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

Luke 21:
34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

2thessalonians2:
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he [the Lord Jesus Christ] who now letteth will let, until he [Jesus, the body of Christ, the church] be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed [the Day of the Lord starts], whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Dougg said:

"2thessalonians2:

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he [the Lord Jesus Christ] who now letteth will let, until he [Jesus, the body of Christ, the church] be taken out of the way.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed [the Day of the Lord starts], whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:"





The church cannot be the one taken out of the way to allow the revealing of the man of sin. 2 Thessalonians 2:3 says the falling away and the revealing of the man of sin will happen before the coming and gathering of 2 Thessalonians 2:1.

The coming and gathering are the topic of 2 Thessalonians 2:1, that is the day of Christ 2 Thessalonians 2:2.

It cannot be both ways, you cannot have the church, body of Christ removed to allow the man of sin to be revealed and also have the coming of the Lord and gathering after the revealing of the man of sin as this passage clearly states.

The falling away and revealing both happen before the coming and the gathering.

 

[Douggg]

The church cannot be the one taken out of the way to allow the revealing of the man of sin. 2 Thessalonians 2:3 says the falling away and the revealing of the man of sin will happen before the coming and gathering of 2 Thessalonians 2:1.

Following the two elements of the great falling away and revealing of the man of sin - is the Day of the Lord.

Two groups will be affected:
1. Them who will not escape the Day of the Lord - them saying peace and saftey
2. Them who will escape the Day of the Lord - them taken in the rapture

The he that letteth (allows) the mystery of iniquity, at work even in John's to present, until he be taken out of the way - then the man of sin will be revealed - is the Lord Jesus Christ. So the church, the body of Christ, is gone before the man of sin does his act.

Please look at these verses in Matthew 24:

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

How can the unknown hour, that you know what, that Lord doth come - be the Day of Christ, when in 2thessalonians2 Paul has said when the Day of Christ (the Lord) comes, i.e. preceded by the great falling away and the man of sin's audacious act?

When it says "hour", it is not talking about a 60 minute timeframe, but at an unknown time.

The Second Coming, at the end of the Day of the Lord, will be at the end of the 7 years, 1335 days after the AOD is setup to be worshiped.

 

[Postvieww]

Following the two elements of the great falling away and revealing of the man of sin - is the Day of the Lord.

Two groups will be affected:
1. Them who will not escape the Day of the Lord - them saying peace and saftey
2. Them who will escape the Day of the Lord - them taken in the rapture

The he that letteth (allows) the mystery of iniquity, at work even in John's to present, until he be taken out of the way - then the man of sin will be revealed - is the Lord Jesus Christ. So the church, the body of Christ, is gone before the man of sin does his act.

Please look at these verses in Matthew 24:

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

How can the unknown hour, that you know what, that Lord doth come - be the Day of Christ, when in 2thessalonians2 Paul has said when the Day of Christ (the Lord) comes, i.e. preceded by the great falling away and the man of sin's audacious act?

When it says "hour", it is not talking about a 60 minute timeframe, but at an unknown time.

The Second Coming, at the end of the Day of the Lord, will be at the end of the 7 years, 1335 days after the AOD is setup to be worshiped.

Dougg said:

Following the two elements of the great falling away and revealing of the man of sin - is the Day of the Lord.

I would say those events lead to it.

Two groups will be affected:

1. Them who will not escape the Day of the Lord - them saying peace and saftey

2. Them who will escape the Day of the Lord - them taken in the rapture

Point 2 is a conclusion you have arrived at IMHO that is not based on scripture. It is what we are disagreeing on. Just stating here as fact proves nothing.

The he that letteth (allows) the mystery of iniquity, at work even in John's to present, until he be taken out of the way - then the man of sin will be revealed - is the Lord Jesus Christ. So the church, the body of Christ, is gone before the man of sin does his act.

True, you have come to that conclusion, but 2 Thessalonians does not agree with you. Apart from your insistence that it is the church (body of Christ) that is the restrainer there is nothing in the text of 2 Thessalonians to support that. As I pointed out in my post #125 both the falling away and the man of sin being revealed must happen before the gathering, that is what the text says.

Please look at these verses in Matthew 24:

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

You are focusing all of your attention on the wording “ye know not what hour your Lord doth come”, let’s look at what that really means and who it is for. Jesus said in Revelation 3:3 if they did not watch He would come upon them as a thief, implying if they did watch He would not come upon them as a thief. This harmonizes perfectly with what Paul said in 2 Thessalonians 5 when he said in verse 4 “But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief”. Why were they not in darkness? Because they watched verse 6 “Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us WATCH and be sober”. What did Jesus say to do in the verse you quoted? Matt, 24:12 He said WATCH. Jesus is not coming to a ready, waiting, and watching church as a thief! If you want to go over all of the “thief” passages we can do that. If you say you are coming to my house sometime this week, if I am waiting and watching ,you will not surprise me or come as a thief because I am ready for you. I won’t know exactly what day or hour you are coming but it will be no surprise.

How can the unknown hour, that you know what, that Lord doth come - be the Day of Christ, when in 2thessalonians2 Paul has said when the Day of Christ (the Lord) comes, i.e. preceded by the great falling away and the man of sin's audacious act?

Paul didn’t use the phrase “unknown hour” in this passage, you did.

When it says "hour", it is not talking about a 60 minute timeframe, but at an unknown time.

In the context of Matthew 24:36 it does mean an hour, unless you want to redefine what a day is.

I wouldn’t disagree with you on Matt. 24:42 or 44 but that does not really change anything here.

The Second Coming, at the end of the Day of the Lord, will be at the end of the 7 years, 1335 days after the AOD is setup to be worshiped.

How can you use that fact to ignore or dispute what Paul said in 2 Thess.? Let me just play devil’s advocate here (no pun intended) where does it say no man will ever at some time in the future not know the day or hour when Jesus will return? Even under your formula above no one would know the hour. What if at some point in the future when certain events have unfolded, one could know very closely the time of His return. I’m not saying it is the case but I see not violation of scripture if it were. Neither can we use your understanding of not knowing the hour to discount what Paul said. We still must harmonize these scriptures. The fact that some choose to harmonize coming of the Lord passages and some choose to divide them up is why we are even having this discussion.

 

[Riberra]

Double post see below.

 

[Riberra]

You believe in multiple resurrections of the dead believers and at least 2 Coming of Jesus yet to come -one coming before the tribulation and the other coming after the tribulation -while the Bible say that there is only one Coming of Jesus yet to come AFTER the Tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31).

I believe not as you have packaged it. Why do you knowingly misrepresent me? It doesn't make what you believe any more right.
What I believe there is one coming of the Lord in the manner of no man knows the day nor hour, at a time we think not, for the gathering unto himself, to take believers to heaven,

I am not misrepresenting you .Do the calcul yourself.
1-One coming and resurrection of the dead believers and the caught up (rapture) before the tribulation or at the mid point of the trib ,before the revealing of the man of sin.

to later return with Him at His Glorious Revealing to the World as Lord of Lords and King of Kings, God Almighty, at what is called His Second Coming, as the 10,000's of his saints, the bride of Christ.

2-The return of Jesus after the 7 years of the tribulation and another resurrection of the believers (those beheaded by the beast/AC)

The demonstration is done that you believe that there is 2 comings of Jesus yet to come separated by 7 years or 3 years and 2 resurrection of the dead believers yet to come.

 

[Riberra]

Sure, no problem.
1 Thes 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air[/B][/COLOR]: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

This match perfectly the description of Matthew 24:29-31 which Jesus said will happen after the tribulation.

There is Jesus Coming in the clouds.....the sound of a trumpet ...and the gathering by the angels mentionned in
Matthew 24:29-31

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect ** from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

**His elect =the believers who are still alive and remain at His Coming...
1 Thes 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

[Douggg]

In the context of Matthew 24:36 it does mean an hour, unless you want to redefine what a day is.

In that verse the combination of not knowing the day nor hour is just a way of saying some unknown time. And I was referring to verse 42 and 44 anyway, in saying hour does not mean 60minutes - in the meaning of the parable of someone's house being broken into. The point is that the coming of the Lord for the rapture is not his Second coming day.

Jesus's Second Coming is on a literal day - at the end of the Day of the Lord (a three and a half year timeframe nominally). Jesus coming for the gathering, one the other hand, is before the Day of the Lord, before the three and a half years begin.

 

[Douggg]

I am not misrepresenting you .Do the calcul yourself.
1-One coming and resurrection of the dead believers and the caught up (rapture) before the tribulation or at the mid point of the trib ,before the revealing of the man of sin.



2-The return of Jesus after the 7 years of the tribulation and another resurrection of the believers (those beheaded by the beast/AC)

The demonstration is done that you believe that there is 2 comings of Jesus yet to come separated by 7 years or 3 years and 2 resurrection of the dead believers yet to come.

Why do you continue to repackage what I wrote into something different?

I did not say 7 years of tribulation. The 7 years are the last week of Daniel 9's seventy weeks.

The resurrection/rapture, I don't know nor anyone else whether that takes place before the 7 years begin or sometime after the 7 years begin. The only thing that is known is that the rapture/resurrection takes place before the revealing of the man of sin - which in turn, no-one knows exactly when during the 7 years the revealing of the man of sin will take place. The best we can know that it will be in the middle part of the 7 years.

Why is it so hard for post tribbers to grasp that there is one coming by Jesus to rapture the living/resurrect the dead at some unknown time - except that it has to be before the revealing of the man of sin.

And later there is a different event known as the Second Coming which is the revealing of the Lord Jesus Christ to the world as God Almighty at the end of the seven years, 1335 days exactly after the Abomination of Desolation is setup to be worshiped, as Jesus returns to this earth, with 10,000's of his saints.

 

[Riberra]

In that verse the combination of not knowing the day nor hour is just a way of saying some unknown time. And I was referring to verse 42 and 44 anyway, in saying hour does not mean 60minutes - in the meaning of the parable of someone's house being broken into. The point is that the coming of the Lord for the rapture is not his Second coming day.

Wrong, the Scriptures tell us that our caught up and gathering unto Jesus will happen AT HIS COMING which refers to the second coming.

See post 130 for details.

 

[Riberra]

Why is it so hard for post tribbers to grasp that there is one coming by Jesus to rapture the living/resurrect the dead at some unknown time - except that it has to be before the revealing of the man of sin.

2 Thessalonians 2 say the exact opposite.Our caught up and gathering unto Jesus will happen only after the falling away and the man of sin is revealed.

You have been caught into twisting the Scriptures (willingly or because of "blindness" )to fit with your 2 Coming of the Lord needed for your theory to work.

 

[Choose Wisely]

This match perfectly the description of Matthew 24:29-31 which Jesus said will happen after the tribulation.

No, sorry, contrary to popular belief, 1 thes 4 does not match up perfectly with Matt 24:29-31. You should be looking for this verse.
1 Cor 15
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

This rapture is also shown at the end of Rev 14. It occurs at the Last Trump which is blown on the Feast of Trumpets. This rapture regards the 12 tribes of Israel. We can see that the 144,000 are the First Fruits of this rapture. Whenever you have First Fruits that is a guarantee of the harvest. Since the 12000 from each tribe are the First Fruits we know that the harvest is Israel which has been regrafted at this point.

**His elect =the believers who are still alive and remain at His Coming...

The Elect being discussed is Israel because of the 144,000 First Fruits, and we know that the church is already gone. The church is raptured at the First Trump, which is blown on Pentecost. It will be a secret rapture. Noah is in the ark 7 days before the flood.

 

[Choose Wisely]

Rev 14
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Above are the 144000 first fruits which guarantees a harvest of the twelve tribes of Israel.

 

[Riberra]

No, sorry, contrary to popular belief, 1 thes 4 does not match up perfectly with Matt 24:29-31. You should be looking for this verse.
The Elect being discussed is Israel because of the 144,000 First Fruits, and we know that the church is already gone. The church is raptured at the First Trump, which is blown on Pentecost. It will be a secret rapture.

1 Cor 15
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

The text of 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 say - at the LAST TRUMP - not the First Trump.

1 Corinthians 15:51-52 is a sister passage of 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 both written by Paul.

1 Corinthians 15:51-52 tell us about the resurrection of the dead believers and the changing into immortality of the believers stil alive and remain some instant before our caught up and gathering in the clouds to meet Jesus in the air mentionned in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17.

The LAST TRUMP mentionned in 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 is the Trump of God mentionned in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 that will sound the rising of the dead believers and our gathering unto Jesus at his coming mentionned in Matthew 24:29-31

That Last Trump which is the Trump of God is not the 7 Th trumpet of Revelation because it will sound AFTER the Tribulation. This is the sound of a trumpet mentionned in Matthew 24:31


This is all related to the prophesied Second Coming of Jesus that Jesus Himself said will happen AFTER the Tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31)

Hope this help !

 

[Choose Wisely]

The text of 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 say - at the LAST TRUMP - not the First Trump.

1 Cor 15: 51-52 says the Last Trump. That occurs on the Feast of Trumpets. It is the harvest of Israel as evidenced by the 144000 first fruits. That ties to Matt 24:31. It happens immediately after the tribulation.......a post trib rapture. The very day Lot leaves Sodom destruction comes.

The church will be raptured at the First Trump with occurs on Pentecost. It will be a pre trib rapture. Noah is in the ark 7 days before the flood.

The LAST TRUMP mentionned in 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 is the Trump of God mentionned in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 that will sound the rising of the dead believers and our gathering unto Jesus at his coming mentionned in Matthew 24:29-31

Incorrect. The Last Trump is blown on the Feast of Trumpets.....the fall harvest feast of Israel. The TRUMP OF GOD is the voice of God.

Exodus 19
16 And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud; so that all the people that was in the camp trembled.

17 And Moses brought forth the people out of the camp to meet with God; and they stood at the nether part of the mount.

18 And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the Lord descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly.

19 And when the voice of the trumpet sounded long, and waxed louder and louder, Moses spake, and God answered him by a voice.

Rev 1
10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

Rev 4
4 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

The Bible explains the Bible. The Trump of God is the voice of God as quoted in 1 Thes 4. The Last Trump as quoted in 1 Cor 15 is blown on the Feast of Trumpets and has absolutely nothing to do with the Trump of God.

 

[Choose Wisely]

This is all related to the prophesied Second Coming of Jesus that Jesus Himself said will happen AFTER the Tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31)

Hope this help !

This is all related to the prophesied Second Coming of Jesus that Jesus Himself said will happen AFTER the Tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31)

Hope this help !

Oh......I understand you side perfectly well. It is the common post tribulation view. I also believe in a post tribulation rapture. The difference is I understand that this is the rapture of Israel as evidenced by the 144000 first fruits. I also understand that this rapture will occur at the Last Trump......blown on the Feast of Trumpets.

Additionally, I understand that there will be a pre tribulation rapture of the church that will occur at the Trump of God on Pentecost........at the First Trump. It will be a secret rapture.

 

[Douggg]

2 Thessalonians 2 say the exact opposite.Our caught up and gathering unto Jesus will happen only after the falling away and the man of sin is revealed.

You have been caught into twisting the Scriptures (willingly or because of "blindness" )to fit with your 2 Coming of the Lord needed for your theory to work.

The coming of the Lord in 2thessalonians2:1 is not called the Second Coming in the text.

The coming of the Lord in 1thessalonians4 is to the air, not down to the earth.

There are two other comings mentioned after Jesus's crucifixion that have already taken place, neither of which is to the earth.

There was Jesus's prophecy that some living right then would see him "coming" into his kingdom.
There was the One like the Son of man "coming" on the clouds of heaven to the Ancient of Days in Daniel 7.

Your mistake is reading "Second Coming" into the text of 2thessalonians2:1 - but Second Coming is not in the text.