2Thessalonians2:7 explained

[Choose Wisely]

Where is my logic flawed? How do you know? You can't judge inside my mind and you probably haven't read very many of my posts at all.

Here's one - the parable of the wheat and tares, Matthew 13. The wheat (elect) and tares (false believers and non-believers) are allowed to grow together until the harvest at the end of this age. The tares are gathered first to be destroyed in the fire, and then the righteous are gathered. Since God won't gather the wicked for destruction until He returns (Revelation 19:21), the elect won't be gathered until after that (post-tribulation resurrection gathering).

Would not the wheat and tares occur AFTER the 1000 years? I don't think this applies to a post trib rapture. Do you have anything else?

 

[Luke17:37]

Luke 21:34-36 is the basis for the anytime rapture view. I would also look at John 14:3 and Revelation 3:10-11.

The type of people who will leave Christianity in the great falling away are not posting at this site. Go look at some videos of Yusuf Estes on You Tube and listen to why he left Christianity to become a muslim, for example. One form of leaving Christianity.

Luke 21:36 and Revelation 3:10 doesn't necessitate a pre-tribulation rapture. God could answer a person's prayer to escape all these things by having them die before they happen. This is a Biblical principle (Isaiah 57:1) that happened in the Old Testament.

Isaiah 57:1-2
The righteous perishes,
And no man takes it to heart;
Merciful men are taken away,
While no one considers
That the righteous is taken away from evil.
2 He shall enter into peace;
They shall rest in their beds,
Each one walking in his uprightness.

It may be that the “early” deaths brought about by cancers, other diseases, and accidents or other means are in fact a blessing from the LORD. There are at least two instances where God told us this was the case: a male child of Jeroboam; and Ahab. First, let’s look at the male child of Jeroboam:

1 Kings 14:10–13 (NKJV)
10 therefore behold! I will bring disaster on the house of Jeroboam, and will cut off from Jeroboam every male in Israel, bond and free; I will take away the remnant of the house of Jeroboam, as one takes away refuse until it is all gone.
11 The dogs shall eat whoever belongs to Jeroboam and dies
in the city, and the birds of the air shall eat whoever dies in the field; for the Lord has spoken!” ’ 12 Arise therefore, go to your own house. When your feet enter the city, the child shall die. 13 And all Israel shall mourn for him and bury him, for he is the only one of Jeroboam who shall come to the grave, because in him there is found something good toward the Lord God of Israel in the house of Jeroboam.

Jeroboam’s young son died (1 Kings 14:17) according to the message spoken by the prophet; he was spared from being disgraced in death with his father and the rest of his father’s household (1 Kings 15:29-31).

Ahab king of Israel also greatly displeased the LORD because of his wickedness, and his house was cursed like the house of Jeroboam, such that the dogs and birds of the air should eat their dead bodies (1 Kings 21:24). Yet because Ahab humbled himself, God decided to wait until Ahab died to bring the punishment during the reign of his son.

1 Kings 21:28–29 (NKJV)
28 And the word of the Lord came to Elijah the Tishbite, saying, 29 “See how Ahab has humbled himself before Me? Because he has humbled himself before Me, I will not bring the calamity in
his days. In the days of his son I will bring the calamity on his house.”

~~~

John 14:3 does not necessitate a pre-tribulation rapture. It just says Jesus will eventually return and make room for us to live with him. This will happen in the millennial reign (Revelation 20) as well as the new heavens and the new earth (our final destination) (Revelation 21).

~~~

A great apostasy is predicted (2 Thessalonians 2:3, 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12). I don't believe that people on this site are incapable for a minute. If the government takes away our right to buy and sell without renouncing our salvation; if we cannot worship God freely; if we are threatened with beheading (as ISIS is doing to Christians in Iraq and Syria)... many will fall away. Especially if they assume beforehand that God would not put them through such suffering.

Look at Iraq and Syria's Christians today. They didn't get raptured.

For example, check out this video:

Matthew 24:9-13
9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

In Matthew 24, Jesus also talks about many people who will be deceived by false Christs and false returns of Christ.

In Luke 18:1-8, Jesus implies that many will fall away before He returns because they grow impatient waiting for Him to avenge them.

In 2 Peter 3:3-10, the Bible prophesied that people will reject the clear teaching in the Bible about the beginning (God's creation, starting with water, and the worldwide flood) and finally they will reject the clear teaching about the end (the bodily return of Jesus).

In the parable of the virgins (Matthew 25), all are seeking the bridegroom but only half actually endure (their lamps lit and ready for the bridegroom's arrival).

 

[Douggg]

Luke 21:36 and Revelation 3:10 doesn't necessitate a pre-tribulation rapture. God could answer a person's prayer to escape all these things by having them die before they happen. This is a Biblical principle (Isaiah 57:1) that happened in the Old Testament.

I don't think the intent is either passage to be sober, watching, hopeful.... so as to die (?) in order to avoid the events of the Day of the Lord and rule of the beast. No, that's not what those passages are saying. Those passages are talking about the rapture.

From my post #68 in this thread, to Riberra...... "So in terms of timeframes, the possibility is that the church is here for the first three years, four months or so. Or the church could be gone in the next few minutes, is also possible. (anytime rapture view). I have not been trying to defend the pretrib view. But the escape from the time of trouble during the Day of the Lord, and rule of the beast."

 

[Luke17:37]

Would not the wheat and tares occur AFTER the 1000 years? I don't think this applies to a post trib rapture. Do you have anything else?

The final judgment will be a sort, but it's talking about the harvest (see Revelation 14:14-20) and it's saying there's no gathering of the righteous before the gathering of the wicked. Jesus will root out those that offend during His reign. A pre-tribulation rapture doesn't follow.

The gathering of the elect (Matthew 24:31) comes after the Tribulation and after Jesus comes on the clouds of the sky and wicked mourn (Matthew 24:30).

You probably read how 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 indicates that the day of Christ's coming and our gathering together to Him won't happen until after the apostasy and the revealing of the man of sin (which happens in the Tribulation... see Revelation 13).

The blessed first resurrection includes those who are beheaded in the Tribulation because of their testimony and because they don't take the mark of the beast (Revelation 20:4-6). Since the first resurrection includes these who die, the resurrection and gathering of the Church described in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 cannot happen prior to the Tribulation. If there were an earlier resurrection, the post-tribulation resurrection would be the second resurrection. The Bible cannot be in error.

 

[Choose Wisely]

Luke 21:36 and Revelation 3:10 doesn't necessitate a pre-tribulation rapture. God could answer a person's prayer to escape all these things by having them die before they happen. This is a Biblical principle (Isaiah 57:1) that happened in the Old Testament.



Matthew 24:9-13
9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

In Matthew 24, Jesus also talks about many people who will be deceived by false Christs and false returns of Christ.

.

I noticed that you mentioned Luke 21 and Matthew 24. Since we are going to read scripture straight forward and read EXACTLY what it says........ YOU DO REALIZE THAT.......Luke 21 and Matthew 24 ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT THE SAME THING. The reason people do not believe in a pre tribulation is because they do not read the scripture straight forward and EXACTLY what it says.

 

[Choose Wisely]

The final judgment will be a sort, but it's talking about the harvest (see Revelation 14:14-20) and it's saying there's no gathering of the righteous before the gathering of the wicked. Jesus will root out those that offend during His reign. A pre-tribulation rapture doesn't follow.

So you say that there is not gathering of the righteous before the gathering of the wicked and you reference Rev 14. However when we look at Rev 14 we see that the righteous are gathered first.

Rev 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

We see that the One sitting on the white cloud harvests the righteous first.....then another angel harvests the wicked and casts them into the wrath of God.

So what you are saying is incorrect.

 

[Luke17:37]

I don't think the intent is either passage to be sober, watching, hopeful.... so as to die (?) in order to avoid the events of the Day of the Lord and rule of the beast. No, that's not what those passages are saying. Those passages are talking about the rapture.

From my post #68 in this thread, to Riberra...... "So in terms of timeframes, the possibility is that the church is here for the first three years, four months or so. Or the church could be gone in the next few minutes, is also possible. (anytime rapture view). I have not been trying to defend the pretrib view. But the escape from the time of trouble during the Day of the Lord, and rule of the beast."

My problem with pre-Trib and mid-Trib views are that there is no promised escape from the time of trouble by translation.

Also, there is plenty of prophecy indicating people will be offended and fall away on account of tribulation; because their not believing the Bible about the beginning (combined with the "long" wait) leads them to reject the literal, bodily return of Jesus; because of false christs, false prophets, and false returns of Christ; because they are offended by the long wait awaiting His vengeance.

Also, there is plenty of prophecy about Christians being slain in the Tribulation. This can be found in Jesus' words in the books of Matthew, Mark and Luke. The beast's power to overcome the believers is also discussed in Daniel and is regularly featured in Revelation.

 

[Luke17:37]

So you say that there is not gathering of the righteous before the gathering of the wicked and you reference Rev 14. However when we look at Rev 14 we see that the righteous are gathered first.

Rev 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

We see that the One sitting on the white cloud harvests the righteous first.....then another angel harvests the wicked and casts them into the wrath of God.

So what you are saying is incorrect.

This is not a timeline.

 

[Choose Wisely]

The gathering of the elect (Matthew 24:31) comes after the Tribulation and after Jesus comes on the clouds of the sky and wicked mourn (Matthew 24:30).

So the gathering of the elect comes after the tribulation. This is where your logic is flawed. You are correct that there is a rapture.....gathering AFTER THE TRIBULATION. We can see this gathering in Rev 14, where we see the righteous harvested first and then the wicked.

So I agree with you that there is A harvest after the tribulation......however.......this does not mean that there will not be a pre tribulation rapture. So the question is.....who is getting harvested. It is clear in the scriptures. Read EXACTLY what it says.

 

[Choose Wisely]

This is not a timeline.

It most certainly is

First the earth is reaped by the One on the cloud.

THEN the angel reaps the wicked.

I thought we were going to read EXACTLY what the scripture says. It is very clear that the righteous are reaped first.

 

[Douggg]

My problem with pre-Trib and mid-Trib views are that there is no promised escape from the time of trouble by translation.

I think you got a lot bigger problem in that you are not.... watching, accompanied by prayer that Jesus come soon to take you out of the world. The promise is there in Luke 21:34-36 to escape, but you apparently want to be right about some rapture timing theory more than you want to escape. That's what I think.

See, you are not even praying to Jesus to take you out of the world. And are encouraging your fellow Christian to do likewise. Do you think you are helping them? What you are doing is telling them not to have faith in Jesus. I don't care about the post trib theory. I am sticking with Jesus, his instructions, and hope in Him.

34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

So, according to what is written in verse 36, what makes you accounted worthy to escape? If you don't believe it, not watching for it, and not praying for it. Your problem is a lot bigger than arguing with me.

 

[Choose Wisely]

The blessed first resurrection includes those who are beheaded in the Tribulation because of their testimony and because they don't take the mark of the beast (Revelation 20:4-6). Since the first resurrection includes these who die, the resurrection and gathering of the Church described in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 cannot happen prior to the Tribulation. If there were an earlier resurrection, the post-tribulation resurrection would be the second resurrection. The Bible cannot be in error.

Again......your logic is in error. The first resurrection is the resurrection of the righteous. This does not mean that all the righteous are harvested at the same time. The first resurrection is designated as those that are the sheep. It does not mean that all the sheep are going to be harvested in the same harvest.

 

[Riberra]

So in terms of timeframes, the possibility is that the church is here for the first three years, four months or so. Or the church could be gone in the next few minutes, is also possible. (anytime rapture view). I have not been trying to defend the pretrib view. But the escape from the time of trouble during the Day of the Lord, and rule of the beast.

You seem to believe that BEING SAVED (SALVATION) by accepting Jesus Christ as our Lord and Saviour means being taken out of the Earth to Heaven while you are still alive to escape from the time of trouble and rule of the beast during the tribulation....Is that right ?

 

[Luke17:37]

I noticed that you mentioned Luke 21 and Matthew 24. Since we are going to read scripture straight forward and read EXACTLY what it says........ YOU DO REALIZE THAT.......Luke 21 and Matthew 24 ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT THE SAME THING. The reason people do not believe in a pre tribulation is because they do not read the scripture straight forward and EXACTLY what it says.

If you are saying this, you really haven't read Matthew 24 and Luke 21 side by side. Luke 17 also includes several things covered in Matthew 24.

You keep asking me why I believe in post-Tribulation and you haven't given me one straightforward reason why the Bible calls for (necessitates) a pre-Tribulation rapture. If there was a pre-Tribulation rapture, you should be able to produce number of passages that actually call for it and obviously conflict with a post-Tribulation gathering.

You probably heard about pre-Tribulation rapture before you became a Christian, or from your parents, church, pastor, etc. I highly doubt you were so isolated that you thought up the idea on your own as you studied the Bible (and from where???). I recall thinking about the pre-Tribulation Rapture as a four or five year old. Later after discovering that one text I had believed described a pre-tribulation rapture ("one taken, the other left..." Luke 17) wasn't about a rapture of the church at all, I studied to see if I could find pre-Tribulation rapture anywhere in the Bible. I couldn't. I found the post-tribulation resurrection-gathering at the return of Christ. The post-Tribulation resurrection gathering is obvious in the context of 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 (about the resurrection gathering at the return of Christ) and Matthew 24:30-31 (gathering at the return of Christ). So, have you ever put pre-tribulation rapture on trial or are you trusting your teachers? I highly encourage you to be a Berean. You have a much more to lose if you're convinced you won't be here for the Tribulation and you are.

 

[Luke17:37]

Do you think angels are going to rapture (translate) you from a corruptible body to an incorruptible body?

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

You should consider converting to "anytime rapture view" which the requirement is that you be watching the times, keep a close relationship to Jesus, hopeful for Jesus coming to translate you and be where-ever he is from then on.

Jesus - All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. I am the resurrection and the life. ....Jesus is my Lord, Savior, God, and my best friend. Even so, come Lord Jesus.

If I were alive when He returns, yes, I believe I'd be translated, but I don't expect to survive the Tribulation that I fully expect the Church to go through, so I believe I'll be one of the resurrected.

I am and will be watching the times, trying to be obedient to Jesus, etc.

 

[Luke17:37]

I don't think the intent is either passage to be sober, watching, hopeful.... so as to die (?) in order to avoid the events of the Day of the Lord and rule of the beast. No, that's not what those passages are saying. Those passages are talking about the rapture.

From my post #68 in this thread, to Riberra...... "So in terms of timeframes, the possibility is that the church is here for the first three years, four months or so. Or the church could be gone in the next few minutes, is also possible. (anytime rapture view). I have not been trying to defend the pretrib view. But the escape from the time of trouble during the Day of the Lord, and rule of the beast."

Not everyone (Christians) will die in the Tribulation... just most. As long as we live, we need to be watching, living lives worthy of Christ, obeying (e.g., Matthew 28:18-20).

 

[Choose Wisely]

If you are saying this, you really haven't read Matthew 24 and Luke 21 side by side. Luke 17 also includes several things covered in Matthew 24.

I suggest that you read Luke 21 and Matt 24 carefully. You will see that they are not talking about the same thing. READ EXACTLY WHAT IT SAYS. Pay attention to the difference of the timeline. Also note the difference in who was present during these events.

You are missing the details......because you are not reading the scripture straight forward and EXACTLY what is being talked about.

 

[Choose Wisely]

You keep asking me why I believe in post-Tribulation and you haven't given me one straightforward reason why the Bible calls for (necessitates) a pre-Tribulation rapture. If there was a pre-Tribulation rapture, you should be able to produce number of passages that actually call for it and obviously conflict with a post-Tribulation gathering.

You probably heard about pre-Tribulation rapture before you became a Christian, or from your parents, church, pastor, etc. I highly doubt you were so isolated that you thought up the idea on your own as you studied the Bible (and from where???). I recall thinking about the pre-Tribulation Rapture as a four or five year old. Later after discovering that one text I had believed described a pre-tribulation rapture ("one taken, the other left..." Luke 17) wasn't about a rapture of the church at all, I studied to see if I could find pre-Tribulation rapture anywhere in the Bible. I couldn't. I found the post-tribulation resurrection-gathering at the return of Christ. The post-Tribulation resurrection gathering is obvious in the context of 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 (about the resurrection gathering at the return of Christ) and Matthew 24:30-31 (gathering at the return of Christ). So, have you ever put pre-tribulation rapture on trial or are you trusting your teachers? I highly encourage you to be a Berean. You have a much more to lose if you're convinced you won't be here for the Tribulation and you are.

Oh.....I can produce plenty of scriptures that show a pretrib rapture.......most of which you have probably never heard before. So just give me a chance. All you need to do is read the scripture straight forward and EXACTLY what is says.

As for me....you are wrong. I was a post trib believer......and still am. However, the error in my logic was believing that because I could prove that there was post rapture......that meant there was not a pre trib rapture. Things just never added up until I understood the parable of the fig tree and further understood the feasts of Israel. Then i understood how after giving a timeline in Matt 24 it was reiterated that IN AN HOUR YOU THINK NOT.....THE SON OF MAN IS COMING.

 

[Douggg]

You seem to believe that BEING SAVED (SALVATION) by accepting Jesus Christ as our Lord and Saviour means being taken out of the Earth to Heaven while you are still alive to escape from the time of trouble and rule of the beast during the tribulation....Is that right ?

No.

Why does Jesus say "that ye may be accounted worthy to escape" ? By saying escape is not going to happen?

.36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

 

[Luke17:37]

Again......your logic is in error. The first resurrection is the resurrection of the righteous. This does not mean that all the righteous are harvested at the same time. The first resurrection is designated as those that are the sheep. It does not mean that all the sheep are going to be harvested in the same harvest.

My logic is not in error. You are just assuming it's possible but it doesn't say that anywhere and your argument makes no logical sense to me.