2 Thessalonians 2:4 Geography Question

[Old Timer]

Yes there is a "your day" and that is where you are in grave error.

Yeah, I get it.. I'm in grave error and you're preaching that the DAY OF THE LORD has come..

Go figure..

 

[Old Timer]

No I did not: that is what the Scripture says.

Oh OK, now you're GOD too.. I get it.

 

[daq]

Oh OK, now you're GOD too.. I get it.

The fact that I quote and speak from the Word does not make me God.
The fact that you never quote or speak from the Word makes you deceived.
Without the Word in my world you have absolutely no authority so here it is again:

Matthew 15:18-19 KJV
18. But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
19. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

1 John 3:11-15 KJV
11. For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
12. Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.
13. Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.
14. We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
15. Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

And yes your day is coming: Beware, lest even what little you have be taken from you.

 

[Old Timer]

And yes your day is coming: Beware, lest even what little you have be taken from you.

Well, we already know that I'm a murderer and I understand that my day is coming.. although the rulers of the darkness of this world could care less about my day coming.. they're concerned with THE DAY coming..

That's why there's sugar coated post after post and thread after thread denying that exact thing..

The DAY OF THE LORD, the DAY of Jesus Christ... which shall come as a thief in the night and as travail upon a woman with child..

In that DAY there are going to be many false teachers wishing that the rocks would fall upon them rather than deal with the wrath of the Lamb..

Anything but that DAY..

And yes, it's coming, regardless of the false teachers who consistently deny it.. they actually affirm it.

 

[Douggg]

How can it be that the Thessalonians were supposed to understand this to mean the literal physical temple building which was yet standing in Jerusalem when their Macedonian congregation was well over a thousand miles away by land and two or three months away with good weather by sea

You argument is that it couldn't happen in their era?

Well, it didn't happen in their era. It is end-times and the whole world will see it happen the same day.

 

[daq]

Well, we already know that I'm a murderer and I understand that my day is coming.. although the rulers of the darkness of this world could care less about my day coming.. they're concerned with THE DAY coming..

That's why there's sugar coated post after post and thread after thread denying that exact thing..

The DAY OF THE LORD, the DAY of Jesus Christ... which shall come as a thief in the night and as travail upon a woman with child..

In that DAY there are going to be many false teachers wishing that the rocks would fall upon them rather than deal with the wrath of the Lamb..

Anything but that DAY..

And yes, it's coming, regardless of the false teachers who consistently deny it.. they actually affirm it.

So many remain trapped in the old age because they reject the Testimony of Yeshua on so many different accounts and in so many different ways, (Paul likewise warns the faithful to walk according to the Spirit and when they do not they twist his words just the same and create their own false doctrines). But aside from those things it is Yochanan the Immerser, while in the Machaerus-Patmos Prison of Herod, who penned Apokalypsis Yeshua which he received from Yeshua via the angelon of Yochanan as the Scripture states. There is so much evidence to prove this fact that I do not care whether you choose to believe it or not because of your paradigm blinders and because you have apparently decided that it is your calling and service to God to misrepresent everything I write or have to say either way.

And there followed him a great throng of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented him. But Yeshua turning unto them said: "Daughters of Yerushalaim, weep not for me, rather weep for yourselves, and for your children. For, behold, are come the days in which they say; Blessed be the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck. The time when they shall begin to say to the mountains: Fall on us! and to the hills, Cover us! For if they do these things in the tree sap wet; what shall be done in the dry?"

 

[daq]

You argument is that it couldn't happen in their era?

Well, it didn't happen in their era. It is end-times and the whole world will see it happen the same day.

That is correct: it could not have happened in their day the way you believe it is supposed to happen. However, it did happen in their day and it will likewise happen to you in your day, (if indeed you endure unto the end as the Master says) and your whole world will indeed see it. Otherwise you will not receive the Promise which is to each in his or her own appointed times, (and as Old Timer has already proven: "None shall be alone in his appointed times!").

 

[Old Timer]

So many remain trapped in the old age...

Well at least you're finally able to admit your false teaching..

You can't directly come out and say it but this says it clear enough regardless of how sophisticated and sugar coated you make it sound..

You're a false teacher..

Why?

Because you teach that THE DAY of the LORD has already come.. and of course we can't forget that you also teach that the body of Christ is the seat of the man of sin..

I hope it's deception daq and that you may come to the knowledge of the truth.. because if it's intentional then that's just another thing entirely.

 

[daq]

Well at least you're finally able to admit your false teaching..

You can't directly come out and say it but this says it clear enough regardless of how sophisticated and sugar coated you make it sound..

You're a false teacher..

Why?

Because you teach that THE DAY of the LORD has already come.. and of course we can't forget that you also teach that the body of Christ is the seat of the man of sin..

I hope it's deception daq and that you may come to the knowledge of the truth.. because if it's intentional then that's just another thing entirely.

Can you please provide Scripture with your accusation to prove what you say? Otherwise your accusations from your father are simply flaming, flaming, and more intentional flaming. Apart from that it is amusing to see a dead man trying to "win the lost" but if you truly seek to save the lost by hammering them until they stop moving I suppose there is an appropriate board for that somewhere around this gigantic forum!

 

[yeshuasavedme]

We have already discussed that elsewhere in not a few places and not a soul was able to give an answer for the question put forth ...

Oh yes they did.
You just did not and do not believe it.
I do not believe you.
I do believe the Word of God, so that settles it

 

[daq]

Oh yes they did.
You just did not and do not believe it.
I do not believe you.
I do believe the Word of God, so that settles it

Yes you are correct! I do not believe there is a temple in the sun as you proclaimed. Neither do I believe as you do that one temple being destroyed and another being built thousands of years later constitutes the same temple made with hands. The passage I quoted from Ezekiel 43 states that the Ezekiel Temple is the place of the throne and the souls of his feet for OLAM which is forever. Ask your friend Biblewriter how long owlam concerns as he has another thread where he states it is something like at least 1000 generations! If you ask me it is ETERNAL because the Ezekiel Temple is itself the Body of Messiah as already shown. Was the Body of Messiah destroyed for two thousand years now as you suggest? Is it going to be rebuilt in the near future according to your eschatology? Sorry but your answer is a theological venture into buffoonery so as to ignore the obvious. This is the conversation with your primary answer to my question in the bottom quote:

The Millennial temple will be built after Jesus sets up His reign, and the only sacrifice that will never be done again is the Day of Atonement, as Jeremiah says, for that is finished once, for all.

There will be no more fasts in those days, for the Bridegroom will be with them, and the fasts will be feasts, celebrated in joy.
You can discover these facts in Ezekiel and Jeremiah and in Isaiah.

Since you appear to be stating that the Ezekiel Temple is the so-called "millennial temple" perhaps you might be able to answer the following. Niether Biblewriter, Douggg, Old Timer, nor the OP of this thread "7sForDays", (who was in the thread from where this is quoted) has been willing or capable of giving an answer as to why this temple is believed to be the so-called millennial temple when the author clearly states that this temple is eternal:

Here is another Tanak passage concerning "feet" just for you:

Ezekiel 43:4-7 KJV
4. And the glory of the Lord [YHWH] came into the house by the way of the gate whose prospect is toward the east.
5. So the spirit took me up, and brought me into the inner court; and, behold, the glory of the Lord [YHWH] filled the house.
6. And I heard him speaking unto me out of the house; and the man stood by me.
7. And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoredom, nor by the carcases of their kings in their high places.

If he says that this Ezekiel Temple is the place of the souls of his feet FOREVER then how say you and those of your disposition that this is a temporary one-thousand year physical millennial Temple building made of wood, stone, iron, brass, silver, and gold? In addition we are now almost two thousand years from the Advent of Messiah. This Ezekiel Temple is the Body of Yeshua, and therefore completely supernal, and this is indeed why they did not build it to begin with when they began to build the second Temple even though they already had the writings of Ezekiel, (in fact the Scroll of Ezekiel HaNavi almost did not make it into the "canon" because of what we now consider chapters 40-48 and the "Ezekiel Temple"). Can it be that the Father would bring about such a wonderful thing as the Body of Messiah, which will last for all eternity, and not first tell it to his servants the prophets?

Amos 3:7-8 KJV
7. Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.
8. The lion hath roared, who will not fear? the Lord God hath spoken, who can but prophesy?

Hebrews 10:5-7 KJV
5. Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared [GSN#2675 katartizo] me:
6. In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7. Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me), to do thy will, O God.

Original Strong's Ref. #2675
Romanized katartizo
Pronounced kat-ar-tid'-zo
from GSN2596 and a derivative of GSN0739; to complete thoroughly, i.e. repair (literally or figuratively) or adjust:
KJV--fit, frame, mend, (make) perfect(-ly join together), prepare, restore.

John 2:19-21 KJV
19. Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20. Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21. But he spake of the temple of his body.

"Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not; but a body-temple hast thou fitted-framed me."

He made His heavenly created temple before He created Adam male and female to be the temple not made with hands: because His created heavenly temple is setin the sun, and the sun will endure forever, then His heavenly temple will endure forever, and the temple not made with hands will endure forever -and multiply and plant the heavens- and so why would His temple in Jerusalem not endure forever? Even if it is destroyed and built again, God still calls it the temple, and Israel itself is to always have a temple below, to prepare sons to build the City of God always, above.

So "owlam" now means that this temple can be destroyed and built again but when it is rebuilt again it remains the same temple made with hands? The place of the throne and souls of his feet forever means that place can be destroyed and rebuilt again thousands of years apart and still be the same place? Face the facts: The Ezekiel Temple is not a temple building structure made with the hands of man because it is indeed the Body of Moshiach Nagiyd Yeshua the Commander of the Covenant.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Yes you are correct! I do not believe there is a temple in the sun as you proclaimed....

No, I did not proclaim it; God said it and I believe it.

Psalm 18: Douay-Rheims:

[1] Unto the end. A psalm for David.
[2] The heavens shew forth the glory of God, and the firmament declareth the work of his hands.
[3] Day to day uttereth speech, and night to night sheweth knowledge.
[4] There are no speeches nor languages, where their voices are not heard.
[5] Their sound hath gone forth into all the earth: and their words unto the ends of the world.

[6] He hath set his tabernacle in the sun: and he, as a bridegroom coming out of his bride chamber, Hath rejoiced as a giant to run the way:
[7] His going out is from the end of heaven, And his circuit even to the end thereof: and there is no one that can hide himself from his heat.


Greek Septuagint to English:
[FONT=Palatino Linotype,Athena]Psalm 18:[/FONT]
[FONT=Palatino Linotype,Athena]1 [For the end, a Psalm of David.][/FONT]
[FONT=Palatino Linotype,Athena] The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament proclaims the work of his hands.
[/FONT]
[FONT=Palatino Linotype,Athena]2 Day to day utters speech, and night to night proclaims knowledge.[/FONT]
[FONT=Palatino Linotype,Athena] 3 There are no speeches or words, in which their voices are not heard.[/FONT]
[FONT=Palatino Linotype,Athena] 4 Their voice is gone out into all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world.

5[/FONT][FONT=Palatino Linotype,Athena] In the sun he has set his tabernacle; and he come forth as a bridegroom out of his chamber: he will exult as a giant to run his course[/FONT]
[FONT=Palatino Linotype,Athena]. 6 His going forth is from the extremity of heaven, and his circuit to the [other] end of heaven: and no one shall be hidden from his heat.[/FONT]


[FONT=Palatino Linotype,Athena]Latin Vulgate:[/FONT]
[FONT=Palatino Linotype,Athena]Psalm 18:
[/FONT]
caeli enarrant gloriam Dei et opus manus eius adnuntiat firmamentum

caeli enarrant gloriam Dei et opera manuum eius adnuntiat firmamentum

The heavens shew forth the glory of God, and the firmament declareth the work of his hands.

3 dies diei eructat verbum et nox nocti indicat scientiam

dies diei eructat verbum et nox nocti indicat scientiam

Day to day uttereth speech, and night to night sheweth knowledge.

4 non est sermo et non sunt verba quibus non audiatur vox eorum

non sunt loquellae neque sermones quorum non audiantur voces eorum

There are no speeches nor languages, where their voices are not heard.

5 in universam terram exivit sonus eorum et in finibus orbis verba eorum

in omnem terram exivit sonus eorum et in fines orbis terrae verba eorum

Their sound hath gone forth into all the earth: and their words unto the ends of the world.

6 soli posuit tabernaculum in eis et ipse quasi sponsus procedens de thalamo suo exultavit ut fortis ad currendam viam

in sole posuit tabernaculum suum et ipse tamquam sponsus procedens de thalamo suo exultavit ut gigans ad currendam viam suam;

He hath set his tabernacle in the sun: and he as a bridegroom coming out of his bridechamber, Hath rejoiced as a giant to run the way:

 

[yeshuasavedme]

the Ezekiel Temple is itself the Body of Messiah as already shown. ...

.

Totally not true, not even hinted at in Scripture, which would make Scripture insane if it did!
The Ezekiel temple is a building made with hands and the details and plans for it are given exactly by Ezekiel.

It is the millennial temple on earth, and as earth will exist forever: though it undergoes elemental regeneration after the thousand year Sabbath, even as all human being bodies that are raptured in a blink of an eye will undergo instant metamorphosis, there is no reason to think that earthly temple will ever be destroyed again, for Israel will always be God's Capital City on earth, mirroring God's City above, for all time.

 

[Old Timer]

Can you please provide Scripture with your accusation to prove what you say? Otherwise your accusations from your father are simply flaming, flaming, and more intentional flaming. Apart from that it is amusing to see a dead man trying to "win the lost" but if you truly seek to save the lost by hammering them until they stop moving I suppose there is an appropriate board for that somewhere around this gigantic forum!

As if you don't know it..

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, that ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Now, you say that this is happening now and that the man of sin sits within the body of Christ..

 

[LovebirdsFlying]

MOD HAT ON

Thread's been fixed. Please carry on.

MOD HAT OFF​

 

[HannibalFlavius]

Totally not true, not even hinted at in Scripture, which would make Scripture insane if it did!
The Ezekiel temple is a building made with hands and the details and plans for it are given exactly by Ezekiel.

It is the millennial temple on earth, and as earth will exist forever: though it undergoes elemental regeneration after the thousand year Sabbath, even as all human being bodies that are raptured in a blink of an eye will undergo instant metamorphosis, there is no reason to think that earthly temple will ever be destroyed again, for Israel will always be God's Capital City on earth, mirroring God's City above, for all time.

Daq is right about Ezekiel's Temple, and only through the knowledge of the Temple would people understand what it is.

What I mean is that the Temple of Ezekiel is not like other temples, it is an ever expanding temple, and the laws of the temple have been changed, but nobody would notice such things unless they had a real good working knowledge of the comings and goings of the Temple.



Let's say you want to witness to a Jew and you say,'' Jesus was all the sacrifices.''



That is something just said in general by Christians as if everyone just has to accept it.


But Jesus died on Nisan 14 as a Passover lamb, and so how does the Christian make a claim that Jesus was all the sacrifices when ALL the sacrifices do not happen on a single day.

One would have to move the Yom Kippor sacrifice to Nisan 14 instead of Tishri 10.

One would have to move the feast of Tabernacles sacrifice to Nisan 14, as well as the red heifer, the sacrifices of Pentecost and all of them.





Knowing the comings and goings of the temple of Solomon, and then also to be able to compare it with the Temple of Ezekiel is to find the differences between the two, because where you find the differences is where you find great truths.






Ezekiel moves all the sacrifices to Nisan 14, Did you know that?



And how could Jesus have possibly been a bull sacrificed on Nisan 14 when a bull has never been sacrificed on Nisan 14, EVER.



But Ezekiel shows it taking place, that he moved all the sacrifices to Nisan 14, and Jesus came to fulfill those very sacrifices, and Ezekiel sets the stage for Yeshua to be ALL OF THE SACRIFICES on a single day.


And so if you were speaking to a Jew saying,'' Jesus fulfilled all the sacrifices,'' and the Jew looks at you and says,'' a Bull has never been offered on Nisan 14, much less the yom Kippor goats of the Rams, not to even mention the red heifer, these are different days entirely.''


And what would you do?


You would point them to Ezekiel showing the fact that Ezekiel moved all the sacrifices to a single day.



Ezekiel's temple cannot be built, it is the temple of Christ, and we are the building.



And take a look at what the water does that issues from the temple, it heals what it wants to heal, and it curses what it wants to curse.

It becomes a great river with all sorts of creatures, and fishermen stand at it's banks to pull those creatures from the sea.



That's what Jesus came to do, he made fishermen of men, and he who believes in Jesus has a river of water flowing from their heart.



People keep looking for a temple which is already built.

 

[daq]

Thanks Hanni,
As for the previous post above from "yeshuasavedme", concerning a literal tabernacle in the literal sun, it was already answered once but has now been deleted in the cleanup and I see no reason to respond to such a purely physical and forced interpretation of a supernal minded writing once again at any length. There is simply no way the Psalm is speaking of a literal tabernacle in the literal sun but this is apparently what happens when a mind is consumed with nothing but purely physical signs which can only be seen with the physical eyes of the flesh. Yeshua warned the Pharisees, Sadducs, and Scribes many times over about having such a purely physical and material mentality and that is exactly why he said they would receive no sign but the sign of Jonah. The same goes for this wicked generation of Pharisees, Sadducs, and Scribes; for they also walk according to the flesh, the eyes of the flesh, and the mind of the flesh, against the admonishments of Yeshua himself who says that the flesh profits nothing, and that his words are Spirit and they are Life, and even against the admonishments of their own whom they claim to be their teachers, such as Paul himself, who says that if we walk according to the flesh we shall die: "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Messiah, he is none of his. And if Messiah be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Yeshua from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Messiah from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live." Such purely physical minded have not even a clue as to what the Spirit concerns so how can they understand what it means to walk according to the Spirit? Clearly not many here even have "the Spirit" because they do have and hold the Testimony of Yeshua in uprightness. The Testimony of Yeshua is the earnest down payment of the Spirit which seals us unto the Great Day wherein we become sons, if indeed we continue in the patience of his doctrine and are faithful unto the End, yet the carnal mind refuses to consume all of the Testimony of Yeshua with the bitter herbs that come along with it leaving nothing till the Morning come. How then shall the Morning ever come, when the Daystar shall arise in their hearts, if they refuse to even eat what is prescribed? It frankly is not going to happen until they die; which is where my brother Titon comes in, to set the houses of these Kretans in order, (each in his or her own appointed times). In the afterdays they will consider it perfectly, if indeed they overcome, (each in his own appointed times and none shall be alone in his appointed times).

 

[Interplanner]

Hann,
Have you ever discussed this with BW? As far as I know he's one who says it is an actual temple we should expect to see on earth. Because he doesn't go in the general NT direction of things.

 

[HannibalFlavius]

Hann,
Have you ever discussed this with BW? As far as I know he's one who says it is an actual temple we should expect to see on earth. Because he doesn't go in the general NT direction of things.

I'm not sure who BW is, but this is something I believed when I was a Baptist, and then I knew it when I was a Pentecostal, but when I became a Messianic, I went about actually trying to prove what I believed, and I began listing all the prophecies Jesus had fulfilled.

And the prophecies of Ezekiel's is the key to the witness of Jesus to any Jew who would hear.


What Ezekiel does in his temple design is the very things that prove Jesus was the Messiah, and his temple to be in the hearts of men.


Without Ezekiel's temple, we have sever problems that cannot be overcome, just as with the problem I listed.


The Jew will say, '' Even if you could get me to consider Jesus as a Passover lamb, How would you possibly get me to believe that Jesus fulfilled all the sacrifices?''


Ezekiel changes the law, and without those changes, we have nothing.


There is no other way to prove who Jesus is without Ezekiel's temple showing Sukkot, Yom Kippor, and Shavuot sacrifices happening on Nisan 14, and this has never happened in all the history of Israel except the Nisan 14 that Jesus died upon, the same day as was prophesied by Ezekiel.


That is only one example where there is many more, one could write a very long book on how the Temple of Jesus is standing right now, and we are that temple.





But Christianity is so accustomed in just repeating things over and over that they have no proof of.


They will all say,'' Jesus was all the sacrifices.''

But they couldn't possibly say this without referring to the change that Ezekiel made.

They say it as easy as they breath, but how many say these things in general expecting people to believe them without a thought?


They will say,'' Jesus was all the sacrifices,'' while not even having a clue about the laws of sacrifice.


Not only was Jesus all the sacrifices, but the order of sacrifice had to be followed in each sacrifice.

We aren't just talking about a man merely symbolizing all sacrifices, but each little jot and tittle had to be followed.

A bone couldn't be broken, the head had to cut off and put in it's place and viewed, the intestines also had to be taken out and put in their place and viewed.

It is a very involved process, and we are speaking of many little jots and tittles of many sacrifices.




If we are to preach Jesus to a Jew, then one must know the laws, one must know the temple designs and there is more than one design.

Not only was Jesus the goat of Yom Kippor on Passover, But Barrabas had to be there also because he was the one let go.


I don't think people realize just how much is involve, and just how many problems that Ezekiel solves.

But even without Ezekiel, we are certainly taught that we are the temple, and that would be the third temple whether it was Ezekiel's or not.

 

[HannibalFlavius]

The thing that should be the most obvious about Ezekiel's temple is the fact that once it is established and set in place, it will never be destroyed nor could it be because it is not a literal temple.

Once Ezekiel's temple is established, no antichrist will enter it.


Once the temple of Ezekiel is reestablished, water streams up from below the platform of the temple, and this water has a life unto itself, and it is judging, healing, cursing where it wants, because Jesus is that water and it waters the land of Israel, this indicates the role of the Temple as the center of creation{The garden of Eden}.

The course of the water reflects the course of the Gihon spring{The edenic river, Gen 2: 10-13} and emerges east of the city of David where it's water flows south into the pool of Siloam. The water flows into theJordan valley and eventually into the Arabah{the Jordan rift where the Dead sea is located} to transform the waters of the Dead Sea into fresh water that supports fish and fruit trees.

A literal temple couldn't possibly do this, water does not have a life of it's own.




But we should ask ourselves this, '' Is the Dead Sea transformed into fresh water now, and does it support creatures in the sea, and the trees upon it's shores?''


Of course.