2 Peter 3:10-12. Not when but how?

[Hazelelponi]

Once again SG avoids every prophecy pointed out, every fact presented and keeps on pushing his fantasy world of Satan bound now and Jesus as current world ruler. It is his delusion.
Engaging with him is pointless, as he is locked into the false theory of AMill. His elaborate beliefs are a total divergence from reality and his unsupported opinions are worthless.

I'm sorry... But are you seriously ignoring old testament (known simply as the Scriptures to early Christians) references to fire being a symbol of both God's presence and His Judgement because you disagree with how some people interpret end times?

Shouldn't you look at Scripture, especially those which deal with the symbolism of fire, seeing that the end times are taught in the New Testament as a time of both God's presence (Jesus's second coming), and God's Judgement? (Both seen in Biblical usage as fire).

 

[keras]

I'm sorry... But are you seriously ignoring old testament (known simply as the Scriptures to early Christians) references to fire being a symbol of both God's presence and His Judgement because you disagree with how some people interpret end times?

Shouldn't you look at Scripture, especially those which deal with the symbolism of fire, seeing that the end times are taught in the New Testament as a time of both God's presence (Jesus's second coming), and God's Judgement? (Both seen in Biblical usage as fire).

ALL the prophesied references to fire, are literal.
They will happen as so graphically stated. Why not?
God used water the first time He reset our civilization. Now we are again; as in the days of Noah and over 70 prophesies say He will send fire to destroy His enemies and commence the end times. Psalms 11:4-6, +

I have studied the Prophetic Word very closely. It is quite clear there is soon to come the Lord's terrible Day of fiery wrath. Be prepared!

 

[Hazelelponi]

ALL the prophesied references to fire, are literal.
They will happen as so graphically stated. Why not?
God used water the first time He reset our civilization. Now we are again; as in the days of Noah and over 70 prophesies say He will send fire to destroy His enemies and commence the end times. Psalms 11:4-6, +

I have studied the Prophetic Word very closely. It is quite clear there is soon to come the Lord's terrible Day of fiery wrath. Be prepared!

Except for the fact our civilization isn't merely being reset.. it's being judged (finality).

 

[sovereigngrace]

I'm sorry... But are you seriously ignoring old testament (known simply as the Scriptures to early Christians) references to fire being a symbol of both God's presence and His Judgement because you disagree with how some people interpret end times?

Shouldn't you look at Scripture, especially those which deal with the symbolism of fire, seeing that the end times are taught in the New Testament as a time of both God's presence (Jesus's second coming), and God's Judgement? (Both seen in Biblical usage as fire).

I had to undo my rating on your previous post as I do not agree with you painting all the fiery records of God with the one figurative brush. That simply is not the case. Context helps determine what is literal and what is figurative.

 

[Hazelelponi]

I had to undo my rating on your previous post as I do not agree with you painting all the fiery records of God with the one figurative brush. That simply is not the case. Context helps determine what is literal and what is figurative.

I haven't done a lot of research into the concept being literal or figurative.

I just know we have both at the second coming, presence of God and Judgement.

All I really know is fire is extremely symbolic for both, whether fire is real or not. I think honestly if it's both real fire and symbolic fire to me matters little, so long as we remember to try and see what the earliest Christians would have seen - and that's awesome in it's symbolism. Thinking only real fire seems to diminish what the presence and judgement actually is.

Feel free to correct me when I err.. I do actually listen and learn. I've only been saved 7 years now. So not long.

 

[sovereigngrace]

I haven't done a lot of research into the concept being literal or figurative.

I just know we have both at the second coming, presence of God and Judgement.

All I really know is fire is extremely symbolic for both, whether fire is real or not. I think honestly if it's both real fire and symbolic fire to me matters little, so long as we remember to try and see what the earliest Christians would have seen - and that's awesome in it's symbolism. Thinking only real fire seems to diminish what the presence and judgement actually is.

Feel free to correct me when I err.. I do actually listen and learn. I've only been saved 7 years now. So not long.

Thanks for your input. I really enjoy your posts.

The last judgment is compared by Jesus and the NT writers to the global judgment of Noah's day and the destruction of Sodom. The water that washed the ancient world was real. The fire that destroyed Sodom was real. It makes sense (in context) that the last judgment at the end would also be real. To support this is the biblical teaching of the regeneration of this fallen earth. The bondage of corruption is going to be removed. Fire seems to be the means that God will do this.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Thanks for your input. I really enjoy your posts.

The last judgment is compared by Jesus and the NT writers to the global judgment of Noah's day and the destruction of Sodom. The water that washed the ancient world was real. The fire that destroyed Sodom was real. It makes sense (in context) that the last judgment at the end would also be real. To support this is the biblical teaching of the regeneration of this fallen earth. The bondage of corruption is going to be removed. Fire seems to be the means that God will do this.

But it's the real presence of God that will work this. We saw Jesus as the Lamb in His first advent.. but the second, that will be Jesus in all His Glory, a Glory that will destroy all that is corrupt and confer incorruption (maybe incorrect wording?) upon God's children...

To me... That is the most beautiful picture. It makes me smile and feel happy.

 

[sovereigngrace]

But it's the real presence of God that will work this. We saw Jesus as the Lamb in His first advent.. but the second, that will be Jesus in all His Glory, a Glory that will destroy all that is corrupt and confer incorruption (maybe incorrect wording?) upon God's children...

To me... That is the most beautiful picture. It makes me smile and feel happy.

Yes. I agree.

We need to be careful that we do not go down the road of Full Preterism and spiritualize everything away.

 

[keras]

The last judgment is compared by Jesus and the NT writers to the global judgment of Noah's day and the destruction of Sodom. The water that washed the ancient world was real. The fire that destroyed Sodom was real.

But the Last Judgment is the GWTJ, after the Millennium; Revelation 20:11-15, which does not refer to the glorious Return.
At the Return, Jesus merely disposes of the armies gathered at Armageddon by the Sword of His Word.

The great and terrible Day of the Lord's fiery wrath is the Sixth Seal and as we see by Rev 6:16-17, people will survive it by hiding under cover.

Except for the fact our civilization isn't merely being reset.. it's being judged (finality).

Not yet:
The Reset of Civilization:
The Word of God [the Bible] tells us that He is the Creator of all things. He has the ability to do anything that he chooses. He made the earth and set humans upon it.

It’s been nearly 2000 years since the last time we were given Divine instructions, that is: as written in the Bible. Since then, people have mostly pursued their own interests, worshipping false gods, promoting evolution and denying the existence of their Creator.

We are told that thousands of years ago people were in a similar situation, having degenerated into apostasy and sin. Only one righteous man and his family were kept alive as God destroyed all the rest by a worldwide flood. Jesus predicted that ‘once again it will be as in the days of Noah’ and when He corrects the situation again, we should be prepared. Matthew 24:37-44

The Creator God ‘reset civilization’ in Noah’s day and now we are facing the same judgement. God promised after the Flood, to never again use water or wipe out life so completely. Genesis 9:11
But in Deuteronomy 32:22 & 34-35, He tells us of a terrible fire punishment stored up for His enemies, on their Day of Doom. Isaiah 54:9-10

There are many descriptions in the prophesies of this sudden and devastating worldwide Day of fire and earthquakes, most are either ignored or allegorized because people cannot see any literal fulfilment. The biggest difficulty that most have, is realizing the difference between the Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath and the Return of Jesus in His glory.

Isaiah 13:9-13 The Day of the Lord is coming, that cruel Day of wrath and fierce anger, to reduce the earth to desolation and to destroy the wicked there. The sun, moon and stars will give no light. Humans will become scarce, as rare as fine gold and the earth will quake at the wrath of God on the Day of His blazing anger.

This and many other prophesies cannot be reconciled with the glorious Return of Jesus, when ‘every eye will see Him’. It is clearly stated that on the Day of wrath, He will not be seen. Psalms 18:11, Habakkuk 3:4, Psalms 11:4-6

We are told in Revelation 6:17, that the Sixth Seal judgement is the Day of the Lord’s wrath and then the Seventh Seal is an ‘about a 20 year’* time gap when the world recovers, enabling righteous Israel, that is; every faithful Christian, from every race, nation and language, Revelation 5:9-10, to return to the holy Land and the rise of a One World government. Then, after most of the rest of the prophesies are fulfilled, Jesus will Return and commence His Millennial reign.

The main reason that most people fail to get what the Bible tells us, is that the Lord has placed on us a spirit of misunderstanding and ‘If you confuse yourself, then you will stay confused’ Isaiah 29:9-12. Only in the last days, before this shocking event, will a few finally understand what the Lord has planned. Daniel 12:9-10


*Revelation 8:1 The Seventh Seal... there was silence in heaven for about a half hour...
This time period is for ‘about a half hour in heaven’, and Psalm 90:4, 2 Peter 3:8, tell us that one day to God in heaven is the same as a thousand years on earth. Therefore, a half hour of heavenly time calculates to 20.8 years of earthly time. So then ‘about 15- 20 years’, is right for all that must happen, starting very soon.
Ref: logostelos.info

 

[sovereigngrace]

But the Last Judgment is the GWTJ, after the Millennium; Revelation 20:11-15, which does not refer to the glorious Return.
At the Return, Jesus merely disposes of the armies gathered at Armageddon by the Sword of His Word.

The great and terrible Day of the Lord's fiery wrath is the Sixth Seal and as we see by Rev 6:16-17, people will survive it by hiding under cover.

Not yet:
The Reset of Civilization:
The Word of God [the Bible] tells us that He is the Creator of all things. He has the ability to do anything that he chooses. He made the earth and set humans upon it.

It’s been nearly 2000 years since the last time we were given Divine instructions, that is: as written in the Bible. Since then, people have mostly pursued their own interests, worshipping false gods, promoting evolution and denying the existence of their Creator.

We are told that thousands of years ago people were in a similar situation, having degenerated into apostasy and sin. Only one righteous man and his family were kept alive as God destroyed all the rest by a worldwide flood. Jesus predicted that ‘once again it will be as in the days of Noah’ and when He corrects the situation again, we should be prepared. Matthew 24:37-44

The Creator God ‘reset civilization’ in Noah’s day and now we are facing the same judgement. God promised after the Flood, to never again use water or wipe out life so completely. Genesis 9:11
But in Deuteronomy 32:22 & 34-35, He tells us of a terrible fire punishment stored up for His enemies, on their Day of Doom. Isaiah 54:9-10

There are many descriptions in the prophesies of this sudden and devastating worldwide Day of fire and earthquakes, most are either ignored or allegorized because people cannot see any literal fulfilment. The biggest difficulty that most have, is realizing the difference between the Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath and the Return of Jesus in His glory.

Isaiah 13:9-13 The Day of the Lord is coming, that cruel Day of wrath and fierce anger, to reduce the earth to desolation and to destroy the wicked there. The sun, moon and stars will give no light. Humans will become scarce, as rare as fine gold and the earth will quake at the wrath of God on the Day of His blazing anger.

This and many other prophesies cannot be reconciled with the glorious Return of Jesus, when ‘every eye will see Him’. It is clearly stated that on the Day of wrath, He will not be seen. Psalms 18:11, Habakkuk 3:4, Psalms 11:4-6

We are told in Revelation 6:17, that the Sixth Seal judgement is the Day of the Lord’s wrath and then the Seventh Seal is an ‘about a 20 year’* time gap when the world recovers, enabling righteous Israel, that is; every faithful Christian, from every race, nation and language, Revelation 5:9-10, to return to the holy Land and the rise of a One World government. Then, after most of the rest of the prophesies are fulfilled, Jesus will Return and commence His Millennial reign.

The main reason that most people fail to get what the Bible tells us, is that the Lord has placed on us a spirit of misunderstanding and ‘If you confuse yourself, then you will stay confused’ Isaiah 29:9-12. Only in the last days, before this shocking event, will a few finally understand what the Lord has planned. Daniel 12:9-10


*Revelation 8:1 The Seventh Seal... there was silence in heaven for about a half hour...
This time period is for ‘about a half hour in heaven’, and Psalm 90:4, 2 Peter 3:8, tell us that one day to God in heaven is the same as a thousand years on earth. Therefore, a half hour of heavenly time calculates to 20.8 years of earthly time. So then ‘about 15- 20 years’, is right for all that must happen, starting very soon.
Ref: logostelos.info

Revelation 20:11-15 – 21:1-5: “And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.”

The text above shows Christ returning enthroned in glory, whereupon the general resurrection/judgment occurs. This lines up with multiple Scripture of a general judgment at the second coming. The arrival of the king of glory also sees the resurrection of the dead (righteous and wicked). Elsewhere in Scripture these things are located at His coming (Job 14:12-14, Isaiah 13:9-11, Isaiah 34:1-4, 8, Isaiah 65:17-21, Isaiah 66:22-24, Joel 2:3, Joel 2:10-11, Malachi 4:1-3, Matthew 24:29-30, Matthew 24:35-44, Mark 13:24-26, Luke 21:25-27, Romans 8:18-23, 1 Corinthians 15:23-24, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-13, Hebrews 1:10-12, Revelation 6:13-17, Revelation 16:15-20).

The renewal of the earth is carefully tied to the renewal of fallen man; manifestly, as at the beginning so at the end. It is at this finishing stage that all the former consequences of the curse will be eternally removed from the elect through the glorification process. Moreover, this current earth will be simultaneously renewed by way of a fiery renewal.

 

[keras]

The text above shows Christ returning enthroned in glory, whereupon the general resurrection/judgment occurs. This lines up with multiple Scripture of a general judgment at the second coming.

That this belief is wrong, is proved by Matthew 25:31-33, where Jesus only separates the nations, not a general Judgment of individuals.
That does not happen until after the Millennium as is clearly told to us in Revelation 20.

The whole of God's Plans for mankind, is a sequence of events; starting with the Fall, right up to the final GWT Judgment and then the new heavens and earth.
Your attempts, SG; to condense the Return of Jesus into the final Judgment and the NH, NE: fails, as the sequence must play out as things are Prophesied.

 

[claninja]

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

It's not a question of when since it will happen, though that too is apparently debatable as to when, what I want to focus on in this thread is how this is fulfilled. Such as. Should we take all or some of this in a literal sense? Or should we take none of it in a literal sense?

2 Peter 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

Some interpreters take verse 5 and 6 to be referring to Genesis 1:1-2, thus allegedly supporting their gap theory. But is that what Peter took it to mean? To determine that one must look at some of what Peter said in his earlier writings. Such as the following.

2 Peter 2:3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;


No interpreter is going to get confused here and think verse 5 is pertaining to Genesis 1:1-2 and an alleged gap. It is crystal clear that Noah's flood is meant here. This verse helps us to correctly interpret 2 Peter 3:5-6, where most of us already correctly interpret 2 Peter 3:5-6 to begin with, yet some don't. I know that for a fact because I have encountered interpreters in the past, even on this board, taking 2 Peter 3:5-6 to be involving Genesis 1:1-2 rather than Noah's flood.

In light of 2 Peter 2:5, 2 Peter 3:5-6 should be understood like such.

For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was(the old world, the world of the ungodly), being overflowed with water, perished

In 2 Peter 3:5-6, world and earth are not the same Greek word. World is this Greek word--kosmos

kosmos
kos'-mos
probably from the base of komizw - komizo 2865; orderly arrangement, i.e. decoration; by implication, the world (in a wide or narrow sense, including its inhabitants, literally or figuratively (morally)):--adorning, world.


Earth is the Greek word ge and is meaning the land. It is not the land that perished, it is the world of the ungodly that perished. And how did they perish? By literally being drowned to death via literal water by way of rain. None of this involved 24 hours or less, though. This involved days. We need to keep this in mind since this could mean 2 Peter 3:10-12 also involves more than a single 24 hour day or less.

Now we come to verse 7 in 2 Peter 3.

2 Peter 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

We know that during Noah's flood that it involved literal water accomplishing the task. Does that automatically mean, since fire is mentioned in verse 7, the fire will be just as literal as the water was? Except this time no one will be drowning to death, they will be burning to death, thus cremated, thus leaving nothing but ashes remaining.

Assuming that scenario, are there any other passages in the OT or the NT that support that, that at the 2nd coming everyone but the saved will be cremated, therefore leaving nothing but ashes remaining? I can maybe see Revelation 20:9 supporting one being turned to ashes, but is Revelation 20:9 even involving what 2 Peter 3:10-12 is involving?

Let's assume it might be. I don't see how any of that would have to involve the entire planet going up in flames, though. That passage doesn't have animals, for example, coming against the camp of the saints. Why does the entire planet need to be ablaze which would mean animals are being punished as well? And what about infants and children up to a certain age? Would they be coming against the camp of the saints as well? Probably not, right? So why would they deserve to be burned to death with the rest, this assuming the entire planet is literally ablaze?

Keeping in mind, per Noah's flood God spared no one but those aboard the ark. Actually though, He obviously spared some not on the ark as well unless one wants to think there were sharks, whales, every kind of fish, so on and so on, also aboard the ark. Can you even drown creatures when water is their natural habitat to begin with?

Here are some quick observations on my part which might connect some of 2 Peter 3, some of Revelation 6, and some of Isaiah 34 with each other, or maybe not. I'm guessing that no one would take any of these things recorded in Revelation 6 and Isaiah 34 in a literal sense, so why take any of what is recorded in 2 Peter 3:10-12 in the literal sense if there is a connection between all these accounts?

wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved(2 Peter 3:12)----And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved(Isaiah 34:4)----and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll(Isaiah 34:4)----And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together(Revelation 6:14)----and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree(Isaiah 34:4)---And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind((Revelation 6:13).

what are the parameters of your argument? In other words, was Noah’s flood global or local? This would definitely impact the understanding

 

[DavidPT]

what are the parameters of your argument? In other words, was Noah’s flood global or local? This would definitely impact the understanding

I'm assuming it was global, yet, not everything not on the ark died nor was destroyed, apparently. Such as fish, plant life, trees, etc. If a global fire were to happen on this planet at the 2nd coming, thus the entire planet engulfed in flames, nothing or no one is going to survive that. There goes all plant life, there goes the entire animal kingdom. Well, God can simply create some more can't He? I'm sure He could. So why didn't He think about that when He caused the flood to happen? Why bother boarding animals on the ark at the time? Why bother making an ark the tremendous size it apparently was? Why not just make it big enough to support 10 ppl or less, wipe out the animal kingdom and simply create some brand new animals?

 

[keras]

I'm assuming it was global, yet, not everything not on the ark died nor was destroyed, apparently. Such as fish, plant life, trees, etc. If a global fire were to happen on this planet at the 2nd coming, thus the entire planet engulfed in flames, nothing or no one is going to survive that. There goes all plant life, there goes the entire animal kingdom

If all the Prophesies are read and understood, it will be seen that this forthcoming punishment by fire will only totally devastate and depopulate the Middle East region.
The rest of the world will be badly affected; loss of our modern infrastructure and many will die, but most will survive. They will form a One World Govt, consisting of 10 regions; each under a Governor.

But the faithful Christian peoples will gather into all of the holy land, which will be regenerated and well watered. Isaiah 35:1-10

I have lived for a while in Jordan. My American agriculturalist friend said: If only this land had good rainfall; it would become like a jungle!
Amos 9:13-15, Isaiah 44:3a, Jeremiah 33:12-13

 

[sovereigngrace]

I'm assuming it was global, yet, not everything not on the ark died nor was destroyed, apparently. Such as fish, plant life, trees, etc. If a global fire were to happen on this planet at the 2nd coming, thus the entire planet engulfed in flames, nothing or no one is going to survive that. There goes all plant life, there goes the entire animal kingdom. Well, God can simply create some more can't He? I'm sure He could. So why didn't He think about that when He caused the flood to happen? Why bother boarding animals on the ark at the time? Why bother making an ark the tremendous size it apparently was? Why not just make it big enough to support 10 ppl or less, wipe out the animal kingdom and simply create some brand new animals?

This is not a biblical argument, this is just you limiting God again. That is why you cannot accept the obvious. This is another example how Premils are non-literal. For to be so, would render Premil obsolete in numerous passages.

 

[sovereigngrace]

If all the Prophesies are read and understood, it will be seen that this forthcoming punishment by fire will only totally devastate and depopulate the Middle East region.
The rest of the world will be badly affected; loss of our modern infrastructure and many will die, but most will survive. They will form a One World Govt, consisting of 10 regions; each under a Governor.

But the faithful Christian peoples will gather into all of the holy land, which will be regenerated and well watered. Isaiah 35:1-10

I have lived for a while in Jordan. My American agriculturalist friend said: If only this land had good rainfall; it would become like a jungle!
Amos 9:13-15, Isaiah 44:3a, Jeremiah 33:12-13

This is all your own personal opinion. This is not what the Book says. You must limit the wrath of God at the end to allow your mistaken view of a future millennium. But the Bible says none will escape - that includes Americans, Middle East citizens and everyone else.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9 declares: “if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain ‘shall be caught up’ [Gr. harpazō] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.”

Please see here: “the coming of the Lord” and “the day of the Lord” are shown to refer to the same climactic day. This is the end! Jesus comes on the “day of the Lord” as a “thief in the night.” He rescues His people, but equally His appearing sees the “sudden” and total “destruction” of the wicked: “they shall not escape.”

I mean, the Holy Spirit could not have made it clearer: "they shall not escape." This totally negates the whole Pretrib and Premil paradigm of countless wicked mortals saturating the new earth.

If the day of the Lord here relates to a third coming, as most Pretribbers argue, and they relate this to the event of Revelation 19, then why is this describing the wicked, who are experiencing the 7 years tribulation, as declaring “Peace and safety”? Surely this is a period of the wrath of God being poured out on all those left behind according to Pretrib theology?

 

[sovereigngrace]

That this belief is wrong, is proved by Matthew 25:31-33, where Jesus only separates the nations, not a general Judgment of individuals.
That does not happen until after the Millennium as is clearly told to us in Revelation 20.

The whole of God's Plans for mankind, is a sequence of events; starting with the Fall, right up to the final GWT Judgment and then the new heavens and earth.
Your attempts, SG; to condense the Return of Jesus into the final Judgment and the NH, NE: fails, as the sequence must play out as things are Prophesied.

Here is another example of how Premil has to butcher the inspired text in order to let their questionable doctrine fit. Half the Premils have this occurring after Satan's little season 1000 years plus after the second coming. The other half have this happening at the second coming, but limit who it actually applies to. Each take the other out of the game with their limp reasoning, allowing Amils to watch on at the error of both.

The reality is what Jesus said in Matthew 25:31-34, 41, 46 is all-inclusive, total and final: “when the son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: and he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world … then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels … and these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.”

Matthew 25:31-34, 41, 46 clearly outlines a general judgment and proves beyond doubt that that the wicked receive their trial at the Second Advent – “when the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels.” This judgment of the wicked here therefore occurs at the time that the righteous elect also receive their judgment . Premillennialists struggle badly with such explicit passages. Some desperately try to argue that this is a judgment of actual “nations” rather than the hearts and deeds of all mankind at this final judgment . Notwithstanding, they have absolutely no biblical warrant for claiming this, as the judgment is not, and is never intimated to be, anything other than the time when individuals account for their earthly lives. Moreover, the millennium is not even remotely mentioned in this passage.

This is a classic example of taking a word or expression that is clear in its context and forcing it to fit into ones flawed presupposition. Christ is obviously talking about a general judgment of all people. Why would this passage teach something that is expressly contradictory to that repeatedly outlined in the rest of Scripture – namely the judging of individual nations rather than the judging of individual persons within them nations.

David Wilkerson of Times Square Church, New York, rightly says, in a written message, ‘The Human Touch’, “Some people claim, ‘this is a judgment of nations, not people’. That’s foolishness! There are no sheep nations or goat nations. I challenge anybody to name one sheep nation existing today or in the past. It’s clear this is a judgment of all humankind. And the sheep mentioned here are judged by one criteria.” He then quotes Matthew 25:34-36.

Furthermore, when Christ instructed the disciples to “go and make disciples of all nations, baptising” he didn’t mean that they could actually make a disciple of, and baptise, a particular nation, no, he meant that the advance of the Gospel/discipleship would include all nations. Notwithstanding, when we analyse the detail of the sheep and goats parable we see that it must surely be a judgment of individuals and not nations. For instance, how could a specific nation possibly visit a sick person (v 43)? How could a nation possibly visit a prisoner in prison (v 43)? What is more, how then could a nation face eternal damnation for not performing such an impossible act? Such a hypothesis is totally illogical and completely fanciful. This judgment , like every other in Scripture, is an all-consummating general judgment of the deeds of all mankind within “all nations” and a testing of their individual works. What the phrase “all nations” simply and repeatedly indicates in Scripture is “the whole world.”

Every man woman and child will therefore stand before the great Judge of all judges. Notwithstanding, whilst, most Bible students accept this fact, the Premillennialist wrongly tries to argue that the wicked and the righteous will stand before God on two distinct Judgment Days, at two distinct times, separated by over a thousand years, despite there being not one verse in Scripture to support such a notion. This includes their beloved Revelation 20 that only records one judgment of “the dead” that occurs immediately after Gog and Magog comes against the saints and, like elsewhere in Scripture, coincides with the destruction of the wicked and this world and the glorious Second Advent.

 

[keras]

I mean, the Holy Spirit could not have made it clearer: "they shall not escape." This totally negates the whole Pretrib and Premil paradigm of countless wicked mortals saturating the new earth.

It IS clear: Paul is referring to the wicked peoples of the Middle East region; who will not escape the Lord's terrible Day of fiery wrath. Zephaniah 1:14-18, Ezekiel 30:1-5

After Jesus Returns, then ALL the ungodly people will be gone, but the faithful, righteous peoples, from every race, nation and language will go into the Millennium.

David Wilkerson of Times Square Church, New York, rightly says, in a written message, ‘The Human Touch’, “Some people claim, ‘this is a judgment of nations, not people’. That’s foolishness! There are no sheep nations or goat nations.

'Nations' simply means; people groups.
There are lots of people groups that actively oppose God and other ones that embrace the Lord and keep His Commandments.

You long winded posts are bordering on desperation. You forcefully attempt to change our beliefs, but to do that requires that we make plain Biblical statements meaningless.
Not going to happen, we will continue to refute your false teachings.

 

[parousia70]

Why not just make it big enough to support 10 ppl or less, wipe out the animal kingdom and simply create some brand new animals?

Tiny elephants would be cool. I think about the size of a small/medium golden retriever would be perfect. That and maybe a Giraffe the size of a Great Dane. How great would that have been?

Maybe Next time.

 

[sovereigngrace]

It IS clear: Paul is referring to the wicked peoples of the Middle East region; who will not escape the Lord's terrible Day of fiery wrath. Zephaniah 1:14-18, Ezekiel 30:1-5

After Jesus Returns, then ALL the ungodly people will be gone, but the faithful, righteous peoples, from every race, nation and language will go into the Millennium.

'Nations' simply means; people groups.
There are lots of people groups that actively oppose God and other ones that embrace the Lord and keep His Commandments.

You long winded posts are bordering on desperation. You forcefully attempt to change our beliefs, but to do that requires that we make plain Biblical statements meaningless.
Not going to happen, we will continue to refute your false teachings.

This has nothing to do with the Middle East region. You force that into the scared text. But that is your theology in a nutshell. You are advancing man's opinion.

So, let us establish a few absolutes about this familiar passage before progressing further.

· This passage is describing the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.
· The coming of the Lord is shown also to be judgment day.
· The Lord only encounters two types of people when He returns.
· These are both judged at His appearing.
· One group is righteous and is the subject of blessing and reward.
· The other group is portrayed as wicked and is the subject of God’s wrath and punished.
· They are before the exact same throne at the exact same time.
· The good receive eternal life.
· The bad obtain eternal punishment.
· There is absolutely no mention of, or allowance made for, a third group.