2 Peter 3:10-12. Not when but how?

[Spiritual Jew]

They could be as few as 2 faithful people, or a whole Christian congregation. They will be separated, like a shepherd does with his sheep
But the unfaithful people groups and the false religion followers, will not enter into the Millennium. Ezekiel 20:34-38 shows this very well.

Matthew 25:31-33 is NOT referring to individuals.

This was a very unconvincing response. It seems like you are just making things up. You say "a whole Christian congregation". Can you give me an example of that?

Nowhere in scripture does it teach that people groups will stand before Christ to be judged. It will be individuals. People groups won't have to give an account of themselves, individuals will. Scripture is clearly not on your side here.

Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Scripture is very clear that each individual person will stand before Christ to give an account of themselves. It's ludicrous to think that people groups will stand before Him and be judged by what they did collectively while giving an account of themselves collectively. That is not taught anywhere in scripture. You're not allowing scripture to interpret scripture for you when it comes to Matthew 25:31-46. Instead, you're interpreting it in such a way that contradicts other scripture which teaches that each individual will stand before Christ to be judged.

You are confused.
Jesus does not destroy that which He has come to reign over.
There is nothing about a total destruction when Jesus Returns.
That happens AFTER the Millennium.

Then I guess 2 Peter 3:10-13 isn't in your Bible because the destruction described there is very obviously total destruction and it will occur in accordance with the promise of Jesus Christ's second coming, according to Peter.

 

[sovereigngrace]

This must be laughable to others who read this thread.

In #175, I address the issues and prove my points with scripture.
In your #174 and 176, you just make accusatory and flaming comments.

Get this: the belief that we are in the Millennium now, is a crock and only defended by those willing to ignore and discard plainly stated prophesies.
Let alone the reality of our situation since Jesus Ascended to heaven.

#175 proves nothing apart from the fact that you have 1 string to your theological guitar - your opinion of Revelation 20. Nothing you present proves billions of wicked survivors overrun your so-called future millennium. You force that upon numerous climactic passages.

 

[keras]

Nowhere in scripture does it teach that people groups will stand before Christ to be judged. It will be individuals. People groups won't have to give an account of themselves, individuals will.

Your preference is to ignore plain scriptural statements.
Matthew 25:31-33, refers to people groups. Those organizations who helped others who were hungry and gave them clothes and those Governments, etc, who did not do altruistic deeds.
The unworthy peoples will go to Eternal punishment, but the righteous will enter Eternal life; when they all stand before God; after the Millennium.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

This happens after the Millennium. God will be on His Great White Throne, but Jesus has already made the Judgments, by removing the names of the unworthy from the Book of Life.

Then I guess 2 Peter 3:10-13 isn't in your Bible because the destruction described there is very obviously total destruction and it will occur in accordance with the promise of Jesus Christ's second coming, according to Peter.

If people reject the well proved coming Millennium reign of Jesus as King of Kings and Lord of Lord's, then correct understanding of the end times sequence is far from them.

Nothing you present proves billions of wicked survivors overrun your so-called future millennium.

This is just a comment made from gross ignorance and overt bias.
We don't have a lot of information about conditions during the Millennium. But with King Jesus in charge, with His Rod of Iron, Psalms 110:1-6, it will be a world far nicer to live in that the mess we humans have now!

 

[sovereigngrace]

Your preference is to ignore plain scriptural statements.
Matthew 25:31-33, refers to people groups. Those organizations who helped others who were hungry and gave them clothes and those Governments, etc, who did not do altruistic deeds.
The unworthy peoples will go to Eternal punishment, but the righteous will enter Eternal life; when they all stand before God; after the Millennium.

This happens after the Millennium. God will be on His Great White Throne, but Jesus has already made the Judgments, by removing the names of the unworthy from the Book of Life.

If people reject the well proved coming Millennium reign of Jesus as King of Kings and Lord of Lord's, then correct understanding of the end times sequence is far from them.

This is just a comment made from gross ignorance and overt bias.
We don't have a lot of information about conditions during the Millennium. But with King Jesus in charge, with His Rod of Iron, Psalms 110:1-6, it will be a world far nicer to live in that the mess we humans have now!

You are totally avoiding SJ's arguments. Your position is clearly untenable. Where else in Scripture teaches a judgment of ethnic groups? Every single passage that talks about Jesus judging people talks about Him judging individual people. Each have to give account for their own lives.

The judgment is actually all about individuals, not whole nations. Salvation has always been a personal thing. It doesn’t matter how godly one’s family is, or how blessed one’s church has been, or how special one’s racial heritage is, Christ is interested in individual hearts. In this reading we see Christ knocking at the door. What is that door? The door here is the heart. That is the place of our passion and affections. The heart is where we fall in love. That is the place that governs whether we accept or reject the Word of God.

When we analyse the detail of the sheep and goats parable we see that it must surely be a judgment of individuals and not nations. For instance, how could a specific nation possibly visit a sick person (v 43)? How could a nation possibly visit a prisoner in prison (v 43)? What is more, how then could a nation face eternal damnation for not performing such an impossible act? Such a hypothesis is totally illogical and completely contrary to the repeated scriptural truth that all men will account for their own lives and actions when Christ comes.

The craziest aspect of this reasoning is that whole nations would have the ability to “inherit the kingdom” and obtain “life eternal” as a result of their earthly citizenship. We all know that is totally impossible. We are saved by grace, not by race. This whole concept simply lacks any biblical credence. Salvation has never been guaranteed by natural birth, earthly citizenship or ethnic race but spiritual birth alone. Let us make clear, whole nations cannot inherit the kingdom. Whole nations cannot acquire eternal life. This has never been possible. It is simply illogical.

Where in Scripture teaches that entire nations will be cast into “everlasting fire” to experience “everlasting punishment” on account of national disobedience? It is simply not there. There is nothing taught here by Jesus that would indicate such. It is false teaching to argue that. Premillennialists do that to support their faulty beliefs. The reality is: salvation has always been an individual experience, it has never been national.

This judgment, like every other in Scripture, is an all-consummating general judgment of the deeds of all mankind within “all nations” and a testing of their individual works. What the phrase “all nations” simply and constantly indicates in Scripture is “the whole world.”

 

[keras]

Where else in Scripture teaches a judgment of ethnic groups?

Ancient Israel, for one. Babylon for another.
Matthew 25:32 plainly states 'nations', that we know can be just people groups. Groups that work together for good or evil. Simple really.

But of course that doesn't suit an AMill believer! It all has to happen at the Return for you.
That this belief contradicts many prophesies, doesn't faze them.

The reality is: salvation has always been an individual experience, it has never been national.

True.
Those who have accepted the Salvation of Jesus, work with their brethren for the good. The ones who bear the proper fruit. Matthew 21:43
Those who reject it, work mostly for evil.
The only time Matthew 25:31-46 mentions individuals is the person or peoples helped, or not as the case may be.

AMill is wrong about this issue. What else?

 

[sovereigngrace]

Ancient Israel, for one. Babylon for another.
Matthew 25:32 plainly states 'nations', that we know can be just people groups. Groups that work together for good or evil. Simple really.

But of course that doesn't suit an AMill believer! It all has to happen at the Return for you.
That this belief contradicts many prophesies, doesn't faze them.

True.
Those who have accepted the Salvation of Jesus, work with their brethren for the good. The ones who bear the proper fruit. Matthew 21:43
Those who reject it, work mostly for evil.
The only time Matthew 25:31-46 mentions individuals is the person or peoples helped, or not as the case may be.

AMill is wrong about this issue. What else?

Address my arguments instead of constantly avoiding the issues.

 

[Oseas]

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

It's not a question of when since it will happen, though that too is apparently debatable as to when, what I want to focus on in this thread is how this is fulfilled. Such as. Should we take all or some of this in a literal sense? Or should we take none of it in a literal sense?

2 Peter 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

TO ALL
What does the Word of GOD say? Well, the Word of GOD-the Word is GOD-says that GOD is a DEVOURING FIRE(Isaiah 33:v.14). And GOD is a CONSUMING FIRE. (Hebrews 12:v.29)

JESUS said: Fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.(HELL's FIRE)

1 Corinthians 3:v.12 to 17
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the Day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by FIRE; and the FIRE shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; YET SO AS BY FIRE.

16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall GOD destroy(BY FIRE); for the temple of GOD is holy, which temple ye are.

2 Thessalonians 1:v.7-11
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be REVEALED from heaven with His mighty angels,

8 In flaming FIRE taking vengeance on them that know not GOD, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power;

10 When He shall come to be glorified in His saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

But wait: The Scriptures also say: Isaiah 43:v.2 - When thou passest through the waters, I will be with thee; and through the rivers, they shall not overflow thee: when thou walkest through the FIRE, thou shalt not be burned; neither shall the flame kindle upon thee.

THAT SAID
Isaiah 33:v.10 to 14

10 Now will I rise, saith the Lord; now will I be exalted; now will I lift up myself.

11 Ye shall conceive chaff, ye shall bring forth stubble: your breath, as fire, shall devour you.

12 And the people shall be as the burnings of lime: as thorns cut up shall they be burned in the fire.

13 Hear, ye that are far off (the Gentiles) , what I have done; and, ye that are near (the Jews), acknowledge my might.

14 The sinners in ZION are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?

Be careful or get ready

 

[keras]

Address my arguments instead of constantly avoiding the issues.

I did and I scripturally and accurately refuted your arguments.

Why can't you change your beliefs to actual Biblical teachings?
I can assure those who do overcome false teachings, will be rewarded for it.
Revelation 3:5

 

[sovereigngrace]

Ancient Israel, for one. Babylon for another.
Matthew 25:32 plainly states 'nations', that we know can be just people groups. Groups that work together for good or evil. Simple really.

But of course that doesn't suit an AMill believer! It all has to happen at the Return for you.
That this belief contradicts many prophesies, doesn't faze them.

True.
Those who have accepted the Salvation of Jesus, work with their brethren for the good. The ones who bear the proper fruit. Matthew 21:43
Those who reject it, work mostly for evil.
The only time Matthew 25:31-46 mentions individuals is the person or peoples helped, or not as the case may be.

AMill is wrong about this issue. What else?

How could a whole nation possibly feed a hungry person (v 42)?
How could a whole nation possibly give a drink to a thirsty person (v 42)?
How could a whole nation take a homeless person in (v 43)?
How could a whole nation clothe a destitute person (v 43)?
How could a whole nation possibly visit a sick person in hospital (v 43)?
How could a whole nation possibly visit an inmate in prison (v 43)?
How then could a nation face eternal damnation for not performing such impossible acts?

The reality is, there are sheep and goat in every nation. Favour with God is not determined by nationality but by one’s response to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Being born in a nation that outwardly professes Christianity will no more save a man that being born in a Muslim country. It is the Gospel that divides men into one of two camps – saved or lost, enlightened or deceived, sheep are goats. This is simple, and this is biblical.

 

[keras]

How could a whole nation possibly feed a hungry person (v 42)?
How could a whole nation possibly give a drink to a thirsty person (v 42)?
How could a whole nation take a homeless person in (v 43)?
How could a whole nation clothe a destitute person (v 43)?
How could a whole nation possibly visit a sick person in hospital (v 43)?
How could a whole nation possibly visit an inmate in prison (v 43)?
How then could a nation face eternal damnation for not performing such impossible acts?

The reality is, there are sheep and goat in every nation. Favour with God is not determined by nationality but by one’s response to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Being born in a nation that outwardly professes Christianity will no more save a man that being born in a Muslim country. It is the Gospel that divides men into one of two camps – saved or lost, enlightened or deceived, sheep are goats. This is simple, and this is biblical.

As usual you have missed my point and you make the same old tired attempt to denigrate me.
A people group can do all those things you list above. Like the Salvation Army, Like Habitat for Humanity, like the Prison Visitors organization, etc.

It is the Gospel that divides men into one of two camps – saved or lost, enlightened or deceived, sheep are goats. This is simple, and this is biblical.

It isn't how Matthew 25 tells it.
The Judgment of every individual is another, final Judgment. AFTER the Millennium, Revelation 20:11-15, which you; for reasons unknown, desire to place as happening now.

 

[sovereigngrace]

As usual you have missed my point and you make the same old tired attempt to denigrate me.
A people group can do all those things you list above. Like the Salvation Army, Like Habitat for Humanity, like the Prison Visitors organization, etc.

It isn't how Matthew 25 tells it.
The Judgment of every individual is another, final Judgment. AFTER the Millennium, Revelation 20:11-15, which you; for reasons unknown, desire to place as happening now.

Again you fudge the issues and attempt to explain them away. The Salvation Army or Habitat for Humanity are not ethnic groups. What are you talking about?

 

[DavidPT]

How could a whole nation possibly feed a hungry person (v 42)?
How could a whole nation possibly give a drink to a thirsty person (v 42)?
How could a whole nation take a homeless person in (v 43)?
How could a whole nation clothe a destitute person (v 43)?
How could a whole nation possibly visit a sick person in hospital (v 43)?
How could a whole nation possibly visit an inmate in prison (v 43)?
How then could a nation face eternal damnation for not performing such impossible acts?

The reality is, there are sheep and goat in every nation. Favour with God is not determined by nationality but by one’s response to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Being born in a nation that outwardly professes Christianity will no more save a man that being born in a Muslim country. It is the Gospel that divides men into one of two camps – saved or lost, enlightened or deceived, sheep are goats. This is simple, and this is biblical.

While I do agree whole nations are obviously not being meant, what you still fail to grasp is what this judgment is involving. It is involving the judgment of those within the church and that they are first gathered out of all nations since that's where the church would be, throughout all nations, then they are separated into two groups. His profitable servants on the right, His unprofitable servants on the left. Notice that as a group they each answer Him the same way. As a group, the goats answer Him like such---Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?


No unrepentant atheist, unrepentant satanist, unrepentant witch, etc, would be answering Him in that manner. Nor would even an unbelieving Jew be answering Him in that manner, as if an unbelieving Jew saw Him as their Lord, then wondered how when they saw Him an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto Him? Totally preposterous the way most of you interpret the sheep and goats judgment. You are not even using good common sense because if you were, you would easily realize unbelieving Jews alone prove this judgment doesn't involve all of the lost because unbelieving Jews would not be answering Jesus like that, period. Let alone atheists, etc, answering Him in that manner.

I'm about finished with trying to reason with the unreasonable around here. I just have to face it, some ppl can't be reasoned with concerning certain things, and that I just have to accept that some are not going to understand what Jesus was meaning in Matthew 25 until after He returns and that they witness this judgment for themselves, when they will be in the group on His right side and then seeing for themselves what happens to the group on His left side, that group meaning His unprofitable servants within the church, and not unbelieving Jews as well, nor atheists, etc.

 

[sovereigngrace]

While I do agree whole nations are obviously not being meant, what you still fail to grasp is what this judgment is involving. It is involving the judgment of those within the church and that they are first gathered out of all nations since that's where the church would be, throughout all nations, then they are separated into two group. His profitable servants on the right, His unprofitable servants on the left. Notice that as a group they each answer Him the same way. As a group, the goats anser Him like such---Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?


No unrepentant atheist, unrepentant satanist, unrepentant witch, etc, would be answering Him in that manner. Nor would even an unbelieving Jew be answering Him in that manner, as if an unbelieving Jew saw Him as their Lord, then wondered how when they saw Him an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto Him? Totally preposterous the way most of you interpret the sheep and goats judgment. You are not even using good common sense because if you were, you would easily realize unbelieving Jews alone prove this judgment doesn't involve all of the lost because unbelieving Jews would not be answering Jesus like that, period. Let alone atheists, etc, answering Him in that manner.

I'm about finished with trying to reason with the unreasonable around here. I just have to face it, some ppl can't be reasoned with concerning certain things, and that I just have to accept that some are not going to understand what Jesus was meaning in Matthew 25 until after He returns and that they witness this judgment for themselves, when they will be in the group on His right side and then seeing for themselves what happens to the group on His left side, that group meaning His unprofitable servants within the church, and not unbelieving Jews as well, nor atheists, etc.

Your bias Premillennialism is blinding you to the fact that there are only two types of people in this world - saved and lost. You try to invent a third group that are too wicked to be raptured and too righteous to be destroyed that do not exist. Your misinterpretation of one highly-symbolic passage in the most figurative setting in Scripture colors your view of all Scripture.

What happens to the righteous when Jesus appears? What happens to the wicked when He appears? In Matthew 25:33 Christ (the king) sets “the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.” He then sentences them, and eternally separates them. The sheep are the believers, the goats are the unbelievers. Jesus confirms this in this final sentencing of all mankind in Matthew 25:34, 41&46, declaring: “Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world … then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels … and these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.”

The terms “the sheep,” “them on his right hand,” “ye blessed” and “the righteous” are seen to be synonymous in this parable. The wicked on the other hand are simply deemed “the goats,” “them on the left hand” or “ye cursed.” The righteous are seen in Matthew 25:31-45 to “inherit the kingdom” and “life eternal” whereas the wicked are cast “into everlasting fire” and receive “everlasting punishment” (Matthew 25:46). The designations and sentences can only relate to the saved and the unsaved. They could not be clearer. There are no exceptions or other groups additional to these two diametrically opposing groupings.

This is the final separation of the wicked from the redeemed of God. It is the climactic assignment of eternal destinies. All mankind is found embodied in one of these two unique groupings. There are no ‘nearly saved or ‘semi-saved’ people or ‘nearly lost’ or ‘semi-lost’ people on this day. One is either clothed with Christ’s robes of righteousness or eternally saved or he is He is clothed with his own filthy rags of righteousness and eternally lost. No one inherits the kingdom through national identity.

 

[sovereigngrace]

While I do agree whole nations are obviously not being meant, what you still fail to grasp is what this judgment is involving. It is involving the judgment of those within the church and that they are first gathered out of all nations since that's where the church would be, throughout all nations, then they are separated into two groups. His profitable servants on the right, His unprofitable servants on the left. Notice that as a group they each answer Him the same way. As a group, the goats answer Him like such---Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?


No unrepentant atheist, unrepentant satanist, unrepentant witch, etc, would be answering Him in that manner. Nor would even an unbelieving Jew be answering Him in that manner, as if an unbelieving Jew saw Him as their Lord, then wondered how when they saw Him an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto Him? Totally preposterous the way most of you interpret the sheep and goats judgment. You are not even using good common sense because if you were, you would easily realize unbelieving Jews alone prove this judgment doesn't involve all of the lost because unbelieving Jews would not be answering Jesus like that, period. Let alone atheists, etc, answering Him in that manner.

I'm about finished with trying to reason with the unreasonable around here. I just have to face it, some ppl can't be reasoned with concerning certain things, and that I just have to accept that some are not going to understand what Jesus was meaning in Matthew 25 until after He returns and that they witness this judgment for themselves, when they will be in the group on His right side and then seeing for themselves what happens to the group on His left side, that group meaning His unprofitable servants within the church, and not unbelieving Jews as well, nor atheists, etc.

When are you going to directly address the questions I asked you re your misrepresentations against Amil? You have been running away from this for long enough. You are going to have to take ownership of your false claims and stop ducking the issue.

 

[sovereigngrace]

No unrepentant atheist, unrepentant satanist, unrepentant witch, etc, would be answering Him in that manner. Nor would even an unbelieving Jew be answering Him in that manner, as if an unbelieving Jew saw Him as their Lord, then wondered how when they saw Him an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto Him? Totally preposterous the way most of you interpret the sheep and goats judgment. You are not even using good common sense because if you were, you would easily realize unbelieving Jews alone prove this judgment doesn't involve all of the lost because unbelieving Jews would not be answering Jesus like that, period. Let alone atheists, etc, answering Him in that manner.

This is simply not true. Philippians 2:9-11 says, “wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”

There is evidence that this is forced or feigned. It is rather a response to reality. They will see the Saviour they ignored and refused to bow down to in life as Risen Lord and conquering king. They will see the folly of Satan’s lie that ‘they had plenty of time’, that ‘they could lead a selfish life and still make it to heaven’. They will bow down in submission to the sovereign power and authority of Jesus Christ. This compliance will bring glory to the Father.

Please know there will be no rebellion before the throne of God. Even as He meets out justice there will be order and submission. Everyone will bow before Him there, every tongue will confess Him as Lord, but it will be too late for most.

Romans 14:10-12: “But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.”

Who can question with any validity that all humanity of all time will be brought to account on this great impending Day of Judgment when time will be ended and eternity will be ushered in? We have seen that the judgment of the wicked occurs at the same time as the righteous. We have also seen that this occurs at the coming of Christ. What is more, there are several passages that connect this final event to the fiery renewal of this sin-cursed earth and the introduction of a new perfect arrangement “wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

 

[keras]

Again you fudge the issues and attempt to explain them away. The Salvation Army or Habitat for Humanity are not ethnic groups. What are you talking about?

Neither am I talking about ethnic groups.
It is either people who bear the proper fruit, or who fail to do so.

I'm about finished with trying to reason with the unreasonable around here. I just have to face it, some ppl can't be reasoned with concerning certain things, and that I just have to accept that some are not going to understand what Jesus was meaning in Matthew 25 until after He returns and that they witness this judgment for themselves, when they will be in the group on His right side and then seeing for themselves what happens to the group on His left side, that group meaning His unprofitable servants within the church, and not unbelieving Jews as well, nor atheists, etc.

Excellent comment, thanks DPT.
I too am frustrated by how some here just don't get the Bible truths, or just don't want to change their beliefs. In fact; they can't change, as those who choose false beliefs, are locked into them. Isaiah 29:9-12
But I continue to post, as there are many who look at the forums who are really seeking the truth.

The 'goats', are the ones to which Jesus will say: I never knew you.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Neither am I talking about ethnic groups.
It is either people who bear the proper fruit, or who fail to do so.

Excellent comment, thanks DPT.
I too am frustrated by how some here just don't get the Bible truths, or just don't want to change their beliefs. In fact; they can't change, as those who choose false beliefs, are locked into them. Isaiah 29:9-12
But I continue to post, as there are many who look at the forums who are really seeking the truth.

The 'goats', are the ones to which Jesus will say: I never knew you.

No. We do not buy into your bias misrepresentation of Bible truths. Your explanation for your views have been strongly refuted yet you refuse to change. You invent a 3rd group of humans because you need to to sustain Premil. Matthew 25 like every other passage reveals only 2 peoples on this earth - saved and lost (or sheep and goats). Sheep do not become goats or goats sheep.

Where are the ‘sheep nations’ or ‘goat nations’ spoken of by Premils? They don’t exist! They seem to have been created to sustain a school of thought. They certainly are not in this reading. There is no such thing as ‘sheep nations’ or ‘goat nations’ in Scripture. Could Premils name one righteous nation? Of course not! There is no such thing. Where are the righteous nations on this earth enforcing heaven’s plan and purpose? If there was one, every righteous human worth their salt should immediately move there. Whilst there are nations that implement righteous laws, no one’s eternal destiny depends upon what country they were born in or what passport they hold. That is absurd. The term “the nations” is simply used to describe everyone.

‘Nation 1’ doesn’t come up to the judgment seat of Christ and answer for its righteous or unrighteous acts followed by ‘Nation 2’. That would be ridiculous. Even the USA – that has a significant number of believers – could never be considered a righteous nation. Any nation that oversees the genocide of over forty one million unborn babies, that allows sodomy to be increasingly recognised as a legitimate relationship, that allows greed and corruption to continue at the highest echelons of politics and the financial system cannot be expected to be viewed as righteous and therefore automatically enter the kingdom of God after the second coming. In that case, reward and punishment would be determined according to nationality and not in regard to our individual heart toward the things of God.

The use of the term nations is used to describe the people of the world. Nations are made up of human beings that will all be brought to account on judgment day. The fact is, when Christ instructed the disciples to “go and make disciples of all nations, baptising” he didn’t mean that they could actually make a disciple of any particular given nation and/or baptize a whole physical nation. No. He meant that the advance of the Gospel and its accompanying discipleship would include all nations.

He is not judging nations. He is judging mankind from the nations. Anyway, the separation that occurs is not into numerous people groups, but two distinct spiritual groups – saved and lost.

David Wilkerson of Times Square Church, New York rightly says in a written message ‘The Human Touch’, “Some people claim, ‘this is a judgment of nations, not people’. That’s foolishness! There are no sheep nations or goat nations. I challenge anybody to name one sheep nation existing today or in the past. It’s clear this is a judgment of all humankind. And the sheep mentioned here are judged by one criteria.”

 

[DavidPT]

Your bias Premillennialism is blinding you to the fact that there are only two types of people in this world - saved and lost. You try to invent a third group that are too wicked to be raptured and too righteous to be destroyed that do not exist. Your misinterpretation of one highly-symbolic passage in the most figurative setting in Scripture colors your view of all Scripture.

What happens to the righteous when Jesus appears? What happens to the wicked when He appears? In Matthew 25:33 Christ (the king) sets “the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.” He then sentences them, and eternally separates them. The sheep are the believers, the goats are the unbelievers. Jesus confirms this in this final sentencing of all mankind in Matthew 25:34, 41&46, declaring: “Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world … then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels … and these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.”

The terms “the sheep,” “them on his right hand,” “ye blessed” and “the righteous” are seen to be synonymous in this parable. The wicked on the other hand are simply deemed “the goats,” “them on the left hand” or “ye cursed.” The righteous are seen in Matthew 25:31-45 to “inherit the kingdom” and “life eternal” whereas the wicked are cast “into everlasting fire” and receive “everlasting punishment” (Matthew 25:46). The designations and sentences can only relate to the saved and the unsaved. They could not be clearer. There are no exceptions or other groups additional to these two diametrically opposing groupings.

This is the final separation of the wicked from the redeemed of God. It is the climactic assignment of eternal destinies. All mankind is found embodied in one of these two unique groupings. There are no ‘nearly saved or ‘semi-saved’ people or ‘nearly lost’ or ‘semi-lost’ people on this day. One is either clothed with Christ’s robes of righteousness or eternally saved or he is He is clothed with his own filthy rags of righteousness and eternally lost. No one inherits the kingdom through national identity.

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Where do you see any of these divided into two groups?

Explain why you think Jesus would be saying the following to everyone in verse 13, especially those delivered up from death and hell?

Matthew 25:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.


Then explain why you think all of those in verse 13 would be answering Jesus like such, especially those delivered up from death and hell?

Matthew 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?


And if the sheep and goats judgment is involving all of the lost since the beginning of time, they being judged, explain why Jesus would be saying to anyone who was already long gone and dead way before His first coming happened first---For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink. I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

This alone proves that this judgment can't be involving any of the lost outside of the NT church era. This judgment is involving exactly what I said it is. It is involving judgment within His NT church, the sheep being His profitable servants, the goats being His unprofitable servants.

Cain was obviously among the lost. Per your interpretation you have him on the left side with the goats and then Jesus saying to Cain, someone that lived thousands of years prior to Him---For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink. I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.---then Cain answering Him like such---Lord, when saw I thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

 

[keras]

No. We do not buy into your bias misrepresentation of Bible truths. Your explanation for your views have been strongly refuted yet you refuse to change. You invent a 3rd group of humans because you need to to sustain Premil.

Sovereigngrace; the greatest, most biased misrepresenter!
I never brought up a third group.
After Jesus Returns and disposes of Satans army at Armageddon, there won't be anyone alive except for those who call themselves Christian.
They will be sorted into "sheep', the faithful ones and 'goats', those lukewarm and insincere believers. Revelation 3:14-16
I believe that the 'goats' may have the opportunity to redeem themselves during the Millennium.

I reject PreMill, if by that you mean a premill rapture.
But of course; Jesus will Return prior to His thousand year reign on earth.

 

[DavidPT]

The 'goats', are the ones to which Jesus will say: I never knew you.

Finally someone else besides me who grasps who the goats are meaning. I guess Matthew 7 is not in some people's Bible, or that they misunderstand that ch as well. I guess to some of these interpreters the one's who professed to have done mighty works in His name, yet Jesus says He never knew them, this would be including Cain being someone professing to have done these things in His name. Why not? If their interpretation can have Cain being among the goats in Matthew 25, why not here as well?