1st the Law, then the Cross

[ralliann]

Being "tried", is not why Abraham was accepted.
This is why Abraham is the "father of our faith", and not the Father of our "works" or the father of all the "tried who didnt fail".
So, your idea of Salvation, that you are expressing in your post, is the idea of SELF SAVING.

No, it is God completing our faith in us through trials. Did you not read James which I quoted?

"if i do this, then God takes me".

No, If God tries you he completes your faith through trials. Those are works of faith.

But that is not God's idea of Salvation.

It is his idea of faith.

God's idea of Salvation is God coming down here, shedding His blood, and dying for all your sins.
God's idea of saving you, is not you being tried, but it's Jesus being crucified and dying in your place. This is GOD as a man, on the earth, dying on the CROSS, thereby TAKING the eternal judgement upon HIMSELF = that you deserve as Hell and the Lake of Fire, after you died.

Ive good news for you.
He did take all your sin.
And God will now take you based on what Jesus did for you, but never will he take you based on your effort or "being tried".

Salvation is a GIFT, ralliann.
its not a "being tried", to see if you deserve it, situaiton.
You dont deserve it.
Noone does.
WE are offered to receive it, because God is LOVE<.... and His love is so great, that He sent his BOY to die for you so that you dont have to go to hell.
John 3:36
Dont confused "the GIFT of salvation" anymore with "being tried", as that type of confusion, when taught on a forum, or to another person, puts you here. Galatians 1:8

Faith is also a gift of God as well. You are confusing salvation with faith.
God tested Abraham. What did he test him for? The resurrection of the dead. If Abraham did not believe God could raise Isaac from the dead, Abraham would not have believed Jesus was resurrected either.

 

[ralliann]

No, it is God completing our faith in us through trials. Did you not read James which I quoted?

No, If God tries you he completes your faith through trials. Those are works of faith.

It is his idea of faith.

Faith is also a gift of God as well. You are confusing salvation with faith.
God tested Abraham. What did he test him for? The resurrection of the dead. If Abraham did not believe God could raise Isaac from the dead, Abraham would not have believed Jesus was resurrected either.

See Abrahams patient enduring of testing
Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Heb 6:15 And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Adam and Eve were not under the law.
What they did, wasn't breaking Moses's law, or a commandment, as these were not given yet

They weren’t breaking a commandment? This commandment had been given before Adam’s fall.

“Then the Lord God took the man and put him into the garden of Eden to cultivate it and keep it. The Lord God commanded the man, saying, “From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.””
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2:15-17‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Eve even acknowledged her knowing about the commandment before she was deceived by the serpent.

“Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman, “Indeed, has God said, ‘You shall not eat from any tree of the garden’?” The woman said to the serpent, “From the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat; but from the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat from it or touch it, or you will die.’ ” The serpent said to the woman, “You surely will not die!”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:1-4‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Just because there was no Mosaic law yet doesn’t mean that God had not explained to them what sin was. Notice that God mentions sin to Cain before he killed Able implying that Cain already knew what sin was.

“Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it.””
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭4:6-7‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Also notice Cain is not surprised or ecstatic about God speaking to him as if this were no special or significant event that probably happened on a regular basis.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Many times.

Jesus has the power to forgive sin, always.
Look at Mary, who came and anointed Jesus.
"her sins which are many, are forgiven".
"go and sin no more"., etc, etc, Jesus says .

But she's not born again yet.
See, being born again, is BASED on something ELSE that happens LATER.
Its based on the CROSS. Its based on Christ's Blood being SHED for the sin of the World.
John 3:16.
You have to have THAT, so that you can go there, and God can accept your faith.
God could not apply the Blood of Jesus to anyone until Jesus DIED.
See it?
So, all those who were forgiven by Jesus, that you are referring to, had no opportunity to have the BLood Shed for them, YET>....as God had not died on the Cross, yet.

The Gospel, Paul's Gospel, "the gospel of the Grace of God< was not be preached, before Jesus died.
There was no gospel yet, because there was no CROSS , yet.
Jesus had to die to create the New Covenant, that could be given as "the preaching of the Cross".

Being born again is becoming a new creation. You refrain from your old sinful ways and turn towards God. That’s what being born again is. Jesus’ 11 apostles were born again before Christ was crucified. Hence “they are not of this world”.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Why do you come to my Thread's and knowingly deceive?
So Who's the snake?

You know i have never written in a post, or a Thread, that said we are not to be OBEDIENT to God.
So, that is a complete lie you told, as you can't post a Quote, but you can sure say it, as a lie.
See, Ive never written that we are not to be obedient.
So, you are not being honest.

I’m not a liar here’s your quotes.

Ok here’s a scenario, a man believes all his sins are forgiven by Christ so he walks into a church and starts shooting everyone inside killing everyone he sees and in the process the police arrive and shoot the man dead. Is this man saved because he trusted in Christ to forgive his sins?

If the shooter is born again, then not just all your sin, ... but all his are covered, by Christ's blood.

And you say...


"but how can the SIN we do today, and a week now, be already forgiven".


Well that question is the dividing line between a believer who understands the Blood Atonement and one who doesn't.


Listen,

on the day you were born again, and im assuming you are not just water baptized, but are actually become a "New creation" in CHRIST< as that is not something that WATER can accomplish for you...

So, if you are born again, and lets say, that happened yesterday.

Now, all your sin is gone, right?

Jesus's blood took care of it.

But when?

See, here is the thing...

God applied the Blood to you yesterday,.....However...Can you SEE that the blood of Jesus took care of your sin 2000 yrs ago?

So, the Salvation that Jesus completed 2000 yrs ago, saved you, 2000 yrs LATER, by Application.

See that?


This is the wonder of Salvation.

God has forgiven the world (all people) their sin, 2000 yrs ago, but the forgiveness is not APPLiED until each person BELIEVES on Jesus.

"faith is COUNTED as Righteousness".

So, the Forgiveness is always there, but its not applied to anyone, until..."all who believe on Jesus SHALL BE SAVED".


The blood of God on The CROSS, redeemed you, 2000 yrs after Jesus died.

See that?

Do you see that what happened 2000 yrs ago, is reaching INTO THE FURURE to save you, and to save me?

That is the "power of the BLOOD". Its an ETERNAL Sacrifice.

It REDEEMS forever and ever.

So, that is the BLood Atonement, continuing into the FUTURE, and forever, to keep redeeming.

And that is why it keeps SAVING YOU, since the day it saved you.

It saved you the day you were saved, and today, and forever.

That is the BLOOD ATONEMENT ....>Its an ETERNAL Sacrifice.

See, ...What happened 2000 yrs ago, keeps redeeming forever, all who are made righteous by that Blood of God.


So, if the shooter is born again, then his deed does not stop the Blood of Jesus from doing it redeeming work.

His deed is just one more sin that the Blood of God paid for 2000 yrs ago.

You just said a person who was killed in the act of killing Christians is saved. Hence his disobedience was not necessary.

So people don’t even have to believe to be saved as long as they believed at one time in their life they are saved no matter what they do afterwards?

Salvation is not a work in progress that a person completes.

That's RELIGION. That's SELF Righteous.


The Righteousness that God accepts, is not what we provide, as we don't have any, BNR32Fan.

The righteousness that God accepts, HE PROVIDED.

See, only God can make you EQUAL to HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS.

We have to have HIS.

You can't do that for yourself.

GOD DID IT FOR YOU...>He did this for us, and offers the Blood of Christ as "the GIFT of RIGHTEOUSNESS"


So, if you have this Gift, its because you are BORN AGAIN.

If you don't, then you are : John 3:36


Salvation is all of God and none of you.


DISCIPLESHIP that follows Salvation, is all of you, with God's help.


God does not give you the NEW BIRTH because you promise to try to be good later.

He gives you the New BIRTH as : "the GIFT of Salvation", BECAUSE you have believed in Jesus, and your "faith is received and accepted and COUNTED, as Righteousness"< vs, you doing anything.


Ephesians 2:8,9 ... " For it is by grace you have BEEN saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the GIFT of God— 9 : "not by Works"


See that?

Salvation is a FREE GIFT, because its ONLY BASED on what JESUS did for you.

Christ said, "no person can come to the Father, but by ME">

So, we dont come to the FATHER by "presenting our bodies as a living Sacrifice".

Cain tried to come to God with crops and work, and God told Cain to "GET OUT".

Abel came with "another's blood" and God said.>"come on in, welcome, son".

See that?

We come to God by God's BLOOD, which is Jesus on the Cross, shedding it for us... John 3:16

WE come to GOD and are received and given the new birth because JESUS has already presented HIS BODY and BLOOD To God, 2000 yrs ago.

Here you say that we don’t even have to keep on believing in Christ there’s nothing that we must do to be saved. Again this means that obedience is not necessary.

So no I didn’t lie at all.

 

[Sidon]

No, it is God completing our faith in us

God does not complete our faith in us.
God accepts our faith from us to give us "the gift of righteousness", and then God is pleased by our faith.
"without faith its impossible to please God"

So, here is the verse you need.
"Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith". Hebrews 12:2

Jesus finishes your faith, not you.
What you are to finish is your discipleship, by becoming..>"as many as be perfect" ,"the fullness of the stature of Christ".

And ive posted quite a few Threads now that can place you into that renewed mind.

 

[Sidon]

They weren’t breaking a commandment? This commandment had been given before Adam’s fall.
Just because there was no Mosaic law yet doesn’t mean that God had not explained to them what sin was. Notice that God mentions sin to Cain before he killed Able implying that Cain already knew what sin was.
“Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it.””
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭4:6-7‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬
Also notice Cain is not surprised or ecstatic about God speaking to him as if this were no special or significant event that probably happened on a regular basis.

Cain and his brother were familiar with God.
Cain killed his brother out of envy, as God had accepted only Abel's sacrifice.
Cain had tried to get God to accept him, based on Self Effort., and was REJECTED by God.
Cain was the 2nd Legalist, as Satan is the first.

When God told Cain's parents, "the day you eat it, you will surely die", , they did.
This death brings the knowledge of transgression, yet, where there is no law there is no transgression.
So, they knew of "iniquity", just like Satan knew of it before Adam and Eve were created, as Satan was "found with iniquity", when He was in Heaven. So, there is where the "sin", that is "iniquity" began, tho its not labeled as such, until the LAW defined all the types.
See, there is no LAW in heaven, as there no need for it, as there is no SIN in Heaven.
This is why God has to deal with our sin, so that we become RIGHTEOUS< which allows us to end up in the place where there can be no sin found.

So, sure, Cain understood that murder was wrong, as that is what this "you shall surely die, if you eat it" situation is all about.
Its the revealing of wrong, and this isn't the same, as before the fall.
Eve and Adam didnt know "wrong from right", before they ate of the tree, as that knowledge comes from an adamic nature, or a fallen nature.
God said to them.>"who told you you were naked".
A.) their SIN NATURE told them.

This is the result of eating from the tree of "knowledge of good and evil".

That is the DEATH, that God told them would happen to them, if they ate of that tree.

It interesting that this Knowledge became spiritual death, to them.

See, when you don't yet know that its wrong and you do it, vs, when you know its wrong and you do it.
This is everything, when talking about sin, as that is what the law does.
It REVEALS to you, what is sinful.

And, there are 10 commandments, and then Jesus spoke of 2.
So, there are commandments, as those, and then there is anything that God specifically tells you not to do, that is a commandment, but its not in the same light.
For example God commands that a man not have sexual intimacy with another man.
But that is not one of the Commandments.

 

[Sidon]

---------------

 

[Sidon]

Being born again is becoming a new creation. You refrain from your old sinful ways and turn towards God. That’s what being born again is. Jesus’ 11 apostles were born again before Christ was crucified. Hence “they are not of this world”.

Jesus's apostles were not born again when Jesus was here.
That includes Judas.
They were anointed for service, and were able to do miracles.
No one was born again, until the Blood of Jesus was shed so that people could become born again.
Jesus could forgive your sin, then tell you, go and sin no more, because this forgiveness was not yet eternal.
Once Jesus died He became the "one time eternal sacrifice", and THAT ONE< once applied, takes care of all your sin.

Jesus called them out of this world, when He first invited them to join Him, and on the day each did, they were not born again.
It was Peter, toward the end of Jesus's earthly ministry, who was the one that Jesus said, understood that He was the "Son of God", and on THAT Revelation, Jesus has built His Church.
The Church is built on the Revelation of the TRUTH, that is Jesus IS Messiah, not on Peter getting a name change.

Being born again isn't your body, and its your body that YOU are talking about that refrains from sin.

See, your body isn't born again, Bnr32fan. If it was, you would not be getting a new one, if you are born again, and not just water baptized.

God is A Spirit.
God gives a 2nd birth to your DEAD SPIRIT>
Jesus said you must be born AGAIN, because you are already born once.
Now you have to have what is DEAD in you, BIRTHED.
And that is your Spirit.
So, God's Holy Spirit BIRTHS the dead spirit in you , ALIVE. This is BORN AGAIN.
A person is born AGAIN, not on earth as a body, but as a born again Spirit birthed INTO God's Holy Spirit, by God's Holy Spirit.
This puts you IN CHRIST.
That is into the Spirit of Christ...."ONE with God, and Christ"

 

[Sidon]

I’m not a liar here’s your quotes.

You just said a person who was killed in the act of killing Christians is saved. Hence his disobedience was not necessary.

Here you say that we don’t even have to keep on believing in Christ there’s nothing that we must do to be saved. Again this means that obedience is not necessary.

So no I didn’t lie at all.

I said you lied by saying that i teach that you dont have to be obedient to God.
Then you posted not one quote that is talking about being obedient to God, or me saying that you dont.
You can't find one, as i never said this......ever.
So, yes, you lied.

Let me give you some reality.

Instead of only being on the forum to try to argue and prove you are right....instead, try to listen and learn and see if you can grow.

You originally asked me some odd question about shooters.
"If this shooter is a christian and murders, is this person really a christian, are they really born again".

So, that was your idea of asking me, if "obedience" is required.
Kinda confused, same as you are now.

I told you that if that person is born again, then murder does not change their spiritual Birth.
You blew to pieces, and are still in shreds, as you can't understand that all sin is resolved by Christ on the Cross.
And this Resolution, is ETERNAL LIFE.
So, you feel that because i didnt say this murderer is going to hell, then im saying that we as the body of Christ, dont have to be obedient.
Not the same thing, bnr32fan.
See, im teaching that Christ is your Righteousness, and you are teaching that obedience is Yours.

Thats quite a messed up idea of Salvation you have, and for you to so misunderstand me, endlessly, when all i teach is the simple Gift of Salvation, does not help prove you have it.

God knows your heart, and i only know your confused posts and deceit.
Thats what i can tell.

 

[Sidon]

.

Ive 2 questions for you.

first one.

One this forum, you find these types of people, who are explained in this verse.
So, how would you recognize the person this verse is talking to, if they were on this forum.

Romans 10:3

""""""For they don’t understand God’s way of making people right with himself. Refusing to accept God’s way, they cling to their own way of getting right with God by trying to keep the law."""""


And, #2

Why is this statement true.?????

"Once you are saved by the blood of Jesus, you are always saved (born again), no matter what you do".

 

[BNR32FAN]

Cain and his brother were familiar with God.
Cain killed his brother out of envy, as God had accepted only Abel's sacrifice.
Cain had tried to get God to accept him, based on Self Effort., and was REJECTED by God.
Cain was the 2nd Legalist, as Satan is the first.

Wow this is not even close to what actually happened. Your completely leaving out the fact that Able did the exact same thing only he brought the very best of his flock as an offering where Cain did not bring his best harvest and that is why Able was blessed over Cain. See your too caught up in your anti-legalistic crusade that you try to make every passage fit your position even when it clearly doesn’t. Your heart is in the right place but you really need to open your eyes to a broader perspective. Just please examine other perspectives objectively and let the scriptures do the teaching. Accept what they say the way they say it without interpreting them thru reformed lenses. It’s those lenses that have caused you to make this error on this topic about Cain. You can’t say that Cain was rejected by God because he was trying to get God to accept him by his own efforts if Able was accepted by God by his own efforts. Cain was greedy and didn’t give God the level of respect that He deserves while Able generously gave his very best to God which is why God was pleased with him. Able gave more effort to God than Cain did that was the determining factor. All I’m saying is that you really need to listen closely to other Christians and their beliefs and compare them to the scriptures without making preconceived notions. I used to believe just as you do. I defended faith alone and eternal security just as fiercely as you do now, until I was confronted by a Roman Catholic who presented John 15:1-7 and I accepted his challenge to interpret John 15 in such a way that didn’t contradict the scriptures or the context and also didn’t contradict reformed theology. And just as you did, I failed. It is impossible to interpret that passage in such a way to support reformed theology without contradicting what is being said. I was not working at the time because I was taking care of my father who was dying of cancer. So I had plenty of time to study on it. I studied and prayed for 3 weeks day and night before I realized that it couldn’t be done. I studied the passages rigorously, I studied the definitions of the Greek words used, I tried several commentaries none of which made any sense, I studied the early church writings, and even the history of the church before I finally realized that I was wrong. The more I studied the more everything pointed in the direction that reformed theology is not correct. You see, the one thing that kept going thru my head was Matthew 16:18. According to Matthew 16:18 Jesus’ church MUST REMAIN INTACT ALWAYS. If I believe His words then I have to believe that His church will remain and evil will not prevail over it. So I set out to find His church. That’s why I began studying the ECF writings and the history of the Catholic Church. I knew that Rome could not possibly be a candidate, unfortunately they disqualified themselves for centuries. So I began to reevaluate my beliefs and reinterpret the verses that I thought proved reformed theology and in doing so I began to see what the early church fathers had been teaching since the church was established. So I began to rebuild my beliefs from scratch according to the scriptures and the earliest church writers and in doing so I arrived at a theology extremely similar to that of the Eastern Orthodox Church. I arrived at this theology while I was completely ignorant of EOC theology. I didn’t even consider the EOC as an option because I didn’t know anything about them. When I learned that they were established by the apostles I began to explore their teachings and I was amazed at how much my beliefs were in common with theirs. So next I began looking for skeletons in their closet to see if they had committed any horrible atrocities like the RCC had and I couldn’t find anything. So I began talking with EOC members here on CF like ArmyMatt and a few others and I was just blown away with how much my beliefs were similar to their’s. So at this point it’s been about three months later and I’ve abandoned reformed theology all together. I ended up going back to the discussion where I accepted the challenge and told the Roman Catholic that I was wrong. That was about 4 years ago and ever since I never come across a passage that I can’t explain or don’t understand. Only when we humble ourselves and open our mind to God and allow Him to fill it with His words can we truly find the truth. If you haven’t gone thru this process of examining other perspectives objectively and open minded then I highly suggest you try it. The men who walked and talked with the apostles everyday can provide some great incite as to what they taught and how they interpreted the scriptures.

“So it came about in the course of time that Cain brought an offering to the Lord of the fruit of the ground. Abel, on his part also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of their fat portions. And the Lord had regard for Abel and for his offering; but for Cain and for his offering He had no regard. So Cain became very angry and his countenance fell.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭4:3-5‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

And because you read that Paul teaches that salvation is "grace through faith, without WORKS"...
God's Grace.

Sin is the transgression of the Law. The wages of sin is death. If there is no law then no sin....then what need is there for grace?

 

[Sidon]

Wow this is not even close to what actually happened. Your completely leaving out the fact that Able did the exact same thing only he brought the very best of his flock

Do you own a bible?
If you do, read where Abel brought the blood of another.
See, the bible is its own interpreter, and when you read that "abel brought a far better sacrifice" that is bible code for "Blood".
He didnt bring crops. His brother tried that., and was exited.
Consider that if Cain was refused for bringing Crops, and you try to teach that Abel was accepted for bringing "works", as that is the idea, then ........do you see your theological mistake?

 

[Sidon]

Sin is the transgression of the Law. The wages of sin is death. If there is no law then no sin....then what need is there for grace?

The law is still in effect for the Unbelievers.
Notice this verse..

"Christ CAME.......to deliver you from the CURSE......of THE Law".
So, the born again, have received this redemption.
However, the unbelievers have not.
They are still judged by the Law, and are this. John 3:36

 

[BNR32FAN]

Do you own a bible?
If you do, read where Abel brought the blood of another.
See, the bible is its own interpreter, and when you read that "abel brought a far better sacrifice" that is bible code for "Blood".
He didnt bring crops. His brother tried that., and was exited.
Consider that if Cain was refused for bringing Crops, and you try to teach that Abel was accepted for bringing "works", as that is the idea, then ........do you see your theological mistake?

Where are you seeing that Able brought the “blood of another”? I don’t see that

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

The law is still in effect for the Unbelievers.
Notice this verse..

"Christ CAME.......to deliver you from the CURSE......of THE Law".
So, the born again, have received this redemption.
However, the unbelievers have not.
They are still judged by the Law, and are this. John 3:36

Sin is the transgression of the LAW. The wages of sin is DEATH. The curse is DEATH. That is what was nailed to the cross....the curse...He became a curse for us. We are saved from the CURSE.

 

[Sidon]

Where are you seeing that Able brought the “blood of another”? I don’t see that

I explained it.

"a more perfect gift".

Notice that this can't be the same that Cain brought.
So, out goes "works" "self effort" and "a fruit basket".

Now, go to JUDE.
He teaches that if a person is trying to STAY SAVED or GO TO HEAVEN by "being obedient" or by "keeping commandments'.
See, all of this, sounds GREAT.
But God only accepts the BLOOD HE SHED to accept you.

So, a person who is not trusting in CHRIST, is trying to be CAIN.


A.) """" Here God, TAKE THIS = here is my commandment keeping, my Torah keeping, my good works, my LIFESTYLE, my SELF EFFORT".

See all that?
That is the "error of Cain".
Its a person who is substituting their DOING SOMETHING in place of the BLOOD ATONEMENT, to try to get God to have them, and keep them.
This is LEGALISM, and its a "fallen from Grace" believer.

 

[fhansen]

Actually what you've been saying all along, is that the reason God saves a person, is so that they can return to the law and try to keep it.
Did you want to say that again, or do you have now a different realization?

And what you've been demonstrating all along is that you fail to understand me, and the gospel of Christ in any complete manner, even though you do well on some points.

 

[ralliann]

Its interesting that sin is discovered as sin, by the law.

Sin has been since the beginning
Ro 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Ge 18:20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;

Yet, You have, "where there is no law, there is no Transgression".
Yet, Lucifer was found to have "iniquity", before the law was given, and so to was this found in Adam and Eve, before the law was given.
So, that is REBELLION, that is not yet defined as "sin", because the Law was not yet given.

It was not brought to account until the law was given. Sodom and Gomorrah was Gods response to the blood of many crying out to him from the ground.
Ge 18:25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?
Ge 18:19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.
The covenant established with an oath could not be disannulled by the Sinai covenant. Grace and mercy continued under Sinai. It was increased under by their sin, since the promises could never be disannulled.