1st the Law, then the Cross

[fhansen]

Did you ever wonder why God gave the LAW first, and much later Jesus was given as God's Grace?

Its because the Law is necessary to be in place to REVEAL us, as we are, in relation to God's Holiness.u
This is the actual purpose of the Law, the specific purpose.
Its to reveal you, as UNRIGHTEOUS.

The general purpose of the law and commandments, is to give you a moral boundary that defines...>Dont go past this morality line, as if you do, suffering will follow you like night follows day.
You will reap what you sow, on this earth.
Every deed is a seed, planted as your coming harvest of destiny.

However, the SPECIFIC reason the law is given is to show YOU that YOU are a sinner, and need help, need rescue, .....need to be SAVED.
So, the Law DEFINES you and it JUDGED you, and based on the Law's findings, you are hell bound and lost....=a sinner.
This is the current status of every unbeliever. = John 3:36.

Christians generally think that damnation follows death, regarding an unbeliever.
However, damnation is already ON the unbeliever, while they are breathing.
It is finally executed as their eternal situation, after they die. (2nd Death).
This means they are already damned, and waiting for the end of it, which is hell, then the lake of fire.

The father of all the damned, is the original damned one, himself.
Lucifer, now Satan. He is the father of UNBELIEF, and the father of unbelievers.
Unbelievers end up with their father, after they die. This is hell, then the lake of Fire.
BELIEVERS, end up with their Father after they die. This is first Heaven, followed by 1000 years with Jesus, in Jerusalem.

God came here as Christ on The Cross to change you from damned to a "new Creation" "In Christ", which is to possess Eternal Life.
Eternal life, is not temporary.

So had there been no law given by Moses, you would not understand what you are in God's perspective before you are saved, and its from this understanding that the LAW Reveals to you, that we REALIZED our lost situation....that we are fallen, sinners, and damned. John 3:36

So what then?

We turn to The Cross, and there.... We believe on/in Jesus.
= We Enter into God's GRACE, by being "made Righteous" through the Blood of Jesus.

A.) God's Grace says...>come unto me, and i'll make you RIGHTEOUS.<. come unto me and i'll make you clean and give you eternal life.......come unto JESUS and BELIEVE and i'll make you MINE forever.

Reader......Are you His?
Do you belong to God?
You absolutely do, and remain God's, if you are born again.
You are become a everlasting part of His eternal FAMILY.
His "body".

If you are not, then you are LOST, and if you die this way you will never have a chance to belong to God, and He will get rid of you when you meet Him, and you surely will meet Him, reader.
This is to "go to Hell" for the sin of CHRIST REJECTION.
That's the first place you end up after you die, if you have rejected God's mercy, on this earth.
Once there, you can't get out, there is no 2nd chance waiting for you there.
All your second chances are HERE, NOW.
"Now is the day of salvation".
Today. !

Jesus came to save you from your sin and from the eternally damned destination that is waiting for all who have never trusted in Christ.
If that is you, then trust Him today. Take Jesus into your heart today. Believe in Jesus today, right now..... and settle your eternity and find your peace of mind that only God can give you that only comes from knowing that once you are gone from this world you will forever be found with God and HIS born again Family.

Once we’ve separated and removed our obligation to be righteous from justification and salvation, then we’ve nullified the gospel. But the truth is this,
“For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.” Rom 2:13

“You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.” James 2:24

Love is what causes us to “do” righteousness, to fulfill the law (Rom 13:10). And that’s why the fulfillment of the greatest commandments is what makes a man righteous.
“The only thing that counts is faith working through love.” Gal 5:6

But this righteousness doesn’t come from us,
“...not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ--the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith.” Phil 3:9

“And hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us.” Rom 5:5

The law tells us what love “looks like” in basic ways. But only faith, by producing it’s offspring, love, can accomplish that in us, can do what the law could not.

I know, some might object, “Darn it, I thought we didn’t have to be good anymore!” But,
"I can do all things through Him who strengthens me." Phil 4:13

 

[ralliann]

Once we’ve separated and removed our obligation to be righteous from justification and salvation, then we’ve nullified the gospel. But the truth is this,
“For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.” Rom 2:13

“You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.” James 2:24

Love is what causes us to “do” righteousness, to fulfill the law (Rom 13:10). And that’s why the fulfillment of the greatest commandments is what makes a man righteous.
“The only thing that counts is faith working through love.” Gal 5:6

But this righteousness doesn’t come from us,
“...not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ--the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith.” Phil 3:9

“And hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us.” Rom 5:5

The law tells us what love “looks like” in basic ways. But only faith, by producing it’s offspring, love, can accomplish that in us, can do what the law could not.

I know, some might object, “Darn it, I thought we didn’t have to be good anymore!” But,
"I can do all things through Him who strengthens me." Phil 4:13

Be good anymore? I thought justification from the historical point of view the sticking point between faith alone or faith with works was in the sacraments??

 

[fhansen]

Be good anymore? I thought justification from the historical point of view the sticking point between faith alone or faith with works was in the sacraments??

The sticking point has always been in the theological differences as far as I've ever been aware, farther back than just the sacraments. Between whether or not a person is right in God's eyes only because He imputes righteousness to them, declaring them to be just, or if justification means that righteousness is actually given to them, that they're actually made just IOW.

In the former case the question naturally arises as to whether or not someone can ever lose their salvation due to unrighteous or unjust behavior (sin), since their state of justice isn't connected to or based on actually possessing righteousness anyway, whereas in the latter case, where justification entails being given justice/righteousness, it's logical that we can also reject that gift at any point, that we can turn back away from God by living unjustly IOW.

 

[Sidon]

Once we’ve separated and removed our obligation to be righteous 3

You're not righteous unless God has made you righteous with the blood of Jesus.
Other then that, you're a filthy sinner, trying to do good works.
There IS NO "righteousness" outside of the Blood Of Jesus, and "the Gift of Righteousness".
Zero.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Its interesting that sin is discovered as sin, by the law.
Yet, You have, "where there is no law, there is no Transgression".
Yet, Lucifer was found to have "iniquity", before the law was given, and so to was this found in Adam and Eve, before the law was given.
So, that is REBELLION, that is not yet defined as "sin", because the Law was not yet given.

If you look at God’s discussion with Cain it appears that sin had already been explained to him and probably to Adam & Eve.

 

[fhansen]

You're not righteous unless God has made you righteous with the blood of Jesus.
Other then that, you're a filthy sinner, trying to do good works.
There IS NO "righteousness" outside of the Blood Of Jesus, and "the Gift of Righteousness".
Zero.

Well, of course??!! -as I've been saying all along. And the gift of righteousness is a real, personal endowment, not a strictly imputed or declared one. So then, to the extent that we avail ourselves to that gift, living by the Spirit, we live. Otherwise we can die. Again.

 

[Sidon]

If you look at God’s discussion with Cain it appears that sin had already been explained to him and probably to Adam & Eve.

Adam & Eve, fell, and became the "adamic nature" before they started having children.
This means that Cain was the same as anyone else..>He was born with a dead spirit, and a fallen nature.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Being born again aka becoming a new creation aka repentance means turning away from your old sinful ways and turning towards God. Anyone who is born again can turn back their their former sinful ways if they choose to which is exactly why Paul warned the “Saints in Ephesus who are faithful to Christ” whom he said were “sealed with the Holy Spirit” in Ephesians 4 and 5 about turning back to their sinful way of life. He specifically said that these people will not inherit the kingdom of God. He also said in chapter 5 verse 6 “Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.” Those who turn back to their former sinful ways have once again become sons of disobedience. In order to receive eternal life they must repent and turn away from their sinful ways again and turn back to God. Don’t be deceived by 16th century doctrines, there’s a perfectly good reason why these doctrines didn’t exist before the 16th century and why they have been refuted by every single church established by the apostles, they are heresies. Don’t be fooled by those who preach that once you believe you can never lose your salvation no matter what you do because that is not taught ANYWHERE in the scriptures. God has and will always have expectations of His children.

 

[Sidon]

Well, of course??!! -as I've been saying all along. .

Actually what you've been saying all along, is that the reason God saves a person, is so that they can return to the law and try to keep it.
Did you want to say that again, or do you have now a different realization?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Adam & Eve, fell, and became the "adamic nature" before they started having children.
This means that Cain was the same as anyone else..>He was born with a dead spirit, and a fallen nature.

I agree, my point was that apparently God had already established His expectations to them, hence God’s law did already exist before the Mosaic law was given.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Actually what you've been saying all along, is that the reason God saves a person, is so that they can return to the law and try to keep it.
Did you want to say that again, or do you have now a different realization?

Hence, “go and sin no more”. Jesus never said go and sin all you want, I got ya covered.

 

[Sidon]

Being born
means turning away from your old sinful ways

No it does not mean that at all.
Let me show you why.

Take Jesus off the Cross.
Put Him back in Heaven....He never came yet.
Now, go and keep the commandments, and the law, and turn from your sin.

What happens?
?
You will die and go to hell.
Why?
Because you still have your sin.
You must resolve your SIN issue, to be allowed INTO HEAVEN.
Can you resolve it?
If you could then Jesus didn't have to die for your sin, BNR32FAN.

 

[Sidon]

Hence, “go and sin no more”. Jesus never said go and sin all you want, I got ya covered.

That person was not born again.
So, dont use a verse that isn't talking about a redeemed believer, to try to prove what isn't true.

Always remember that verses that came before the Cross is Raised, have to be evaluated in the LIGHT of the Cross, and the BLood Atonement.

 

[BNR32FAN]

That person was not born again.
So, dont use a verse that isn't talking about a redeemed believer, to try to prove what isn't true.

Always remember that verses that came before the Cross is Raised, have to be evaluated in the LIGHT of the Cross, and the BLood Atonement.

Jesus forgave someone who wasn’t born again?

 

[Sidon]

I agree, my point was that apparently God had already established His expectations to them, hence God’s law did already exist before the Mosaic law was given.

No it didnt.

See this verse , and study what it means

"Where there is no Law, there is no Transgression".

See, that verse can't exist , if there was never a time there was no law.

Adam and Eve were not under the law.
What they did, wasn't breaking Moses's law, or a commandment, as these were not given yet.
What they did, was to do what God told THEM, not to do.
"if you do THIS< then you will surely DIE".
1+1 = 2.
"cause and effect".
"sowing and reaping"

People that want to teach "there is no such thing as freewill", need to think about Adam and Eve, as its for certain that God would not tell them...>"do not eat of that TREE", and then make them do it by "pre-destination".
So, that is how crazy that theology is revealed to be, when you look at it honestly, for about 12 seconds.

 

[Sidon]

Jesus forgave someone who wasn’t born again?

Many times.

Jesus has the power to forgive sin, always.
Look at Mary, who came and anointed Jesus.
"her sins which are many, are forgiven".
"go and sin no more"., etc, etc, Jesus says .

But she's not born again yet.
See, being born again, is BASED on something ELSE that happens LATER.
Its based on the CROSS. Its based on Christ's Blood being SHED for the sin of the World.
John 3:16.
You have to have THAT, so that you can go there, and God can accept your faith.
God could not apply the Blood of Jesus to anyone until Jesus DIED.
See it?
So, all those who were forgiven by Jesus, that you are referring to, had no opportunity to have the BLood Shed for them, YET>....as God had not died on the Cross, yet.

The Gospel, Paul's Gospel, "the gospel of the Grace of God< was not be preached, before Jesus died.
There was no gospel yet, because there was no CROSS , yet.
Jesus had to die to create the New Covenant, that could be given as "the preaching of the Cross".

 

[BNR32FAN]

No it does not mean that at all.
Let me show you why.

Take Jesus off the Cross.
Put Him back in Heaven....He never came yet.
Now, go and keep the commandments, and the law, and turn from your sin.

What happens?
?
You will die and go to hell.
Why?
Because you still have your sin.
You must resolve your SIN issue, to be allowed INTO HEAVEN.
Can you resolve it?
If you could then Jesus didn't have to die for your sin, BNR32FAN.

That doesn’t prove that God does not have expectations nor is even evidence that God does not have expectations. You say that obedience to God isn’t necessary. That sounds very familiar, Genesis 3:4 comes to mind.

“Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman, “Indeed, has God said, ‘You shall not eat from any tree of the garden’?” The woman said to the serpent, “From the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat; but from the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat from it or touch it, or you will die.’ ” The serpent said to the woman, “You surely will not die!”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:1-4‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭1:5-9‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; for he who has died is freed from sin. Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace. What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:1-16‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

 

[Sidon]

You say that obedience to God isn’t necessary.‬‬

Why do you come to my Thread's and knowingly deceive?
So Who's the snake?

You know i have never written in a post, or a Thread, that said we are not to be OBEDIENT to God.
So, that is a complete lie you told, as you can't post a Quote, but you can sure say it, as a lie.
See, Ive never written that we are not to be obedient.
So, you are not being honest.

Does the NT not say..>"be holy as i am holy"? and "present your body as a living sacrifice"?

Mine says that. Does yours?

But where you fell off the track, is by trying to do that, so that God will be happy with you, and will keep you.
That is your LEGALISM.

And because you read that Paul teaches that salvation is "grace through faith, without WORKS"...
That i teach...
Because you can't understand this spiritual reality, you then use the carnal mind to think..>"that is Paul saying we dont have to be obedient".
C'mon.
Do you see all the work im doing on this forum?
The Threads, the number of POSTS i respond to , every day?
Im working here.....no worries......and this is just one of my spiritual pursuits.
Being here, is me be obedient to my call, and to my Lord.
He has allowed me to know, and i show what there is to Know.
Pauline Theology.
And thats just a small part of what i de each day, as my "obedience".

See, that is FRUIT, that God accepts.
Thats the real obedience.
Not this phony.... "keep the law and commandments", and "endure to the end", stuff that you are pursuing and trying to do in place of God's Grace.

 

[ralliann]

That person was not born again.
So, dont use a verse that isn't talking about a redeemed believer, to try to prove what isn't true.

Always remember that verses that came before the Cross is Raised, have to be evaluated in the LIGHT of the Cross, and the BLood Atonement.

The completion or finishing of faith is through trials as James and Peter speak. They go to Abraham for an example as God did not swear with an oath until until he was tried.
Ge 22:1 And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am
Ja 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; {temptations: or, trials }
3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.


Ja 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

1Pet 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

 

[Sidon]

The completion or finishing of faith is through trials as James and Peter speak. They go to Abraham for an example as God did not swear with an oath

Being "tried", is not why Abraham was accepted.
This is why Abraham is the "father of our faith", and not the Father of our "works" or the father of all the "tried who didnt fail".
So, your idea of Salvation, that you are expressing in your post, is the idea of SELF SAVING.

"if i do this, then God takes me".

But that is not God's idea of Salvation.
God's idea of Salvation is God coming down here, shedding His blood, and dying for all your sins.
God's idea of saving you, is not you being tried, but it's Jesus being crucified and dying in your place. This is GOD as a man, on the earth, dying on the CROSS, thereby TAKING the eternal judgement upon HIMSELF = that you deserve as Hell and the Lake of Fire, after you died.

Ive good news for you.
He did take all your sin.
And God will now take you based on what Jesus did for you, but never will he take you based on your effort or "being tried".

Salvation is a GIFT, ralliann.
its not a "being tried", to see if you deserve it, situaiton.
You dont deserve it.
Noone does.
WE are offered to receive it, because God is LOVE<.... and His love is so great, that He sent his BOY to die for you so that you dont have to go to hell.
John 3:36
Dont confused "the GIFT of salvation" anymore with "being tried", as that type of confusion, when taught on a forum, or to another person, puts you here. Galatians 1:8