Creation & Eternity

AdB · Nov 7, 2021

There are several texts in Scripture that seem to indicate that the current physical earth and heavens will end to exist, and that a new earth and heaven will come in their place.

Isa 34:4 All the host of heaven shall rot away, and the skies roll up like a scroll.

Isa 51:6 for the heavens vanish like smoke, the earth will wear out like a garment,

Isa 65:17 For behold, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind.

Isa 66:22 “For just as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, will endure before Me,” declares the LORD, “so your descendants and your name will endure.

Matt 24:35 (Mark 13:31) Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.

2 Pet 3:7 And by that same word, the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

2 Pet 3:10-13 But the Day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar, the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and its works will be laid bare. Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to conduct yourselves in holiness and godliness as you anticipate and hasten the coming of the day of God, when the heavens will be destroyed by fire and the elements will melt in the heat. But in keeping with God’s promise, we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

Rev 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them.

Rev 21:1-5 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying:
“Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man,
and He will dwell with them.
They will be His people,
and God Himself will be with them as their God.
‘He will wipe away every tear from their eyes,’
and there will be no more death
or mourning or crying or pain,
for the former things have passed away.”
And the One seated on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” Then He said, “Write this down, for these words are faithful and true.”

But the Bible also indicates that the creation itself is awaiting redemption.
Rom 8:19-21 The creation waits in eager expectation for the revelation of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but because of the One who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

So could this mean that the current physical creation will be actually transformed just as our physical bodies will be transformed?

1 Cor 15:51-54 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come to pass: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

Phil 3:20-21 But our citizenship is in heaven, and we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables Him to subject all things to Himself, will transform our lowly bodies to be like His glorious body.

trophy33 · Nov 7, 2021

AdB said:
There are several texts in Scripture that seem to indicate that the current physical earth and heavens will end to exist, and that a new earth and heaven will come in their place.

But the Bible also indicates that the creation itself is awaiting redemption.
Rom 8:19-21 The creation waits in eager expectation for the revelation of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but because of the One who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

So could this mean that the current physical creation will be actually transformed just as our physical bodies will be transformed?

1 Cor 15:51-54 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come to pass: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

Phil 3:20-21 But our citizenship is in heaven, and we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables Him to subject all things to Himself, will transform our lowly bodies to be like His glorious body.

The fire cleaning the land and "new earth and new heavens" can be metaphorical, not literal.

Its also good to keep in mind that Bible writers did not have the concept of a planet, so whenever they speak about "earth" or about "world", they mean "the known land" or "the leading empire".

AdB · Nov 7, 2021

myst33 said:
The fire cleaning the land and "new earth and new heavens" can be metaphorical, not literal.

Yeah, like the "going through the fire" of durable objects like metal as prescribed in the Levitical law to sterilize them effectively "redeemed" those objects.

trophy33 · Nov 7, 2021

AdB said:
Yeah, like the "going through the fire" of durable objects like metal as prescribed in the Levitical law to sterilize them effectively "redeemed" those objects.

It can simply means war, like several times in the Old Testament.

Wars in bible are frequently described with very rich language, vapor, smoke, fire, earthquakes, falling stars... It would be a mistake to take it literally.

AdB · Nov 7, 2021

myst33 said:
It can simply means war, like several times in the Old Testament.

Wars in bible are frequently described with very rich language, vapor, smoke, fire, earthquakes, falling stars... It would be a mistake to take it literally.

Correct, but in these texts it is clearly talking about the END of the earth and heavens as we know them.
Many times I've seen this explained as the current earth and heavens being completely annihilated and replaced by an "ex nihilo" new earth and heavens.
But I'm wondering if the texts mean the current (physical) earth and heavens will rather be transformed in the same way as the bidies of the saints will be. This transformation would then also result in the "earth and heavens as we know it" will not be found anymore...

trophy33 · Nov 7, 2021

AdB said:
Correct, but in these texts it is clesrly talking about the END of the earth and heavens as we know them.
Many times I've seen this explained as the current earth and heavens being completely annihilated and replaced by an "ex nihilo" new earth and heavens.
But I'm wondering if the texts mean the current (physical) earth and heavens will rather be transformed in the same way as the bidies of the saints will be. This transformation would then also result in the "earth and heavens as we know it" will not be found anymore...

Not as we know them, but as they knew them. The point of view is the Old testament reality before Christ.

And with the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD and after Christ so many things changed both on earth and in heaven, that I think it can be easily applied to these metaphors.

AdB · Nov 7, 2021

myst33 said:
Not as we know them, but as they knew them. The point of view is the Old testament reality before Christ.

And with the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD and after Christ so many things changed both on earth and in heaven, that I think it can be easily applied to these metaphors.

The physical earth and heavens are practically still the same as before Christ' sacrifice or the destruction of Jerusalem even though salvation has now come to the world. Basically the same as our physical bodies stay what they were when we get born again...

trophy33 · Nov 7, 2021

AdB said:
The physic warth and heavens are practucally still the same as before Christ' sacrifice or the destruction of Jerusalem even though salvation has jow come to the world. Basically the same as our physical bodies stay what they were when we get born again...

The language is the same as it was before any attack - by Babylon, for example. And the physical reality did not change after the babylonian attack.

So I do not think there is a reason to think that the physical reality had to change after the Roman attack, except that the nation of Israel ceased to exist and the temple was destroyed and people now worship God in spirit, not in the temple, sacrifices were stopped and similar. So it affected both land and heavens.

AdB · Nov 7, 2021

myst33 said:
The language is the same as it was before any attack - by Babylon, for example. And the physical reality did not change after the babylonian attack.

So I do not think there is a reason to think that the physical reality had to change after the Roman attack, except that the nation of Israel ceased to exist and the temple was destroyed and people now worship God in spirit, not in the temple, sacrifices were stopped and similar. So it affected both land and heavens.

I doubt that these text fit this narrative?

Isa 65:17 For behold, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind.

Isa 66:22 “For just as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, will endure before Me,” declares the LORD, “so your descendants and your name will endure. (the current earth and heavens will endure?)

Rev 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them.

Rev 21:1-5 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying:
“Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man,
and He will dwell with them.
They will be His people,
and God Himself will be with them as their God.
‘He will wipe away every tear from their eyes,’
and there will be no more death
or mourning or crying or pain,
for the former things have passed away.”
And the One seated on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” Then He said, “Write this down, for these words are faithful and true.”

And also, the new testament texts I listed were after the resurrection of Christ, but these texts are speaking of future things.

eleos1954 · Nov 7, 2021

AdB said:
There are several texts in Scripture that seem to indicate that the current physical earth and heavens will end to exist, and that a new earth and heaven will come in their place.

But the Bible also indicates that the creation itself is awaiting redemption.
Rom 8:19-21 The creation waits in eager expectation for the revelation of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but because of the One who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

So could this mean that the current physical creation will be actually transformed just as our physical bodies will be transformed?

1 Cor 15:51-54 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come to pass: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

Phil 3:20-21 But our citizenship is in heaven, and we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables Him to subject all things to Himself, will transform our lowly bodies to be like His glorious body.

His Word says He will create a new heaven and earth.

The "new" could be the old refreshed (restored to it's original creation before sin) or it could be completely new. Only God knows.

AdB · Nov 7, 2021

eleos1954 said:
Only God knows

Absolutely, but if it actually means that the whole of creation will be translated to immortality then this would have huge impact on eschatology...

eleos1954 · Nov 7, 2021

AdB said:
Absolutely, but if it actually means that the whole of creation will be translated to immortality then this would have huge impact on eschatology...

Restoration .... not translation

The process of replacing or bringing back to normal something that got bad along the line.

Everything will change .... how God accomplishes that regarding the heavens and His other creatures on the earth is known only by Him.

I don't see a eschatology conflict.

However, I will say .... as far as the physical earth ... since it will be destroyed by fire ... then makes sense He will recreate the physical .... new. Even though it is new it will be like He originally intended for life on earth was intended to be from His original creation.

keras · Nov 7, 2021

AdB said:
There are several texts in Scripture that seem to indicate that the current physical earth and heavens will end to exist, and that a new earth and heaven will come in their place.

The NH, NE will come after the Millennium. Revelation 21:1

But the verses here:
Isaiah 34:4 All the host of heaven shall rot away, and the skies roll up like a scroll.
Isaiah 51:6 for the heavens vanish like smoke,
2 Peter 3:7 & 10
....plainly refer to the Sixth Seal event. Revelation 6:14

The Lord's terrible Day of His fiery wrath, is the net prophesied event we can expect. Then, Revelation 7 to the end can take place.

AdB · Nov 7, 2021

keras said:
The NH, NE will come after the Millennium. Revelation 21:1

But the verses here:
Isaiah 34:4 All the host of heaven shall rot away, and the skies roll up like a scroll.
Isaiah 51:6 for the heavens vanish like smoke,
2 Peter 3:7 & 10
....plainly refer to the Sixth Seal event. Revelation 6:14

The Lord's terrible Day of His fiery wrath, is the net prophesied event we can expect. Then, Revelation 7 to the end can take place.

The 6th seal indeed speaks of "the sky receding like a scroll being rolled up", but there seems to be no reference to consuming fire

AdB · Nov 7, 2021

eleos1954 said:
However, I will say .... as far as the physical earth ... since it will be destroyed by fire ... then makes sense He will recreate the physical .... new. Even though it is new it will be like He originally intended for life on earth was intended to be from His original creation.

That is indeed the common reading, I am just wondering if this is metaphorically speaking about the existing being translated, or as you say restored.

eleos1954 · Nov 7, 2021

AdB said:
That is indeed the common reading, I am just wondering if this is metaphorically speaking about the existing being translated, or as you say restored.

Seems to me translation is moving from one location to another.

Whereas restored

to give back (someone or something that was lost or taken) : to return (someone or something)

AdB · Nov 7, 2021

eleos1954 said:
Seems to me translation is moving from one location to another.

Whereas restored

to give back (someone or something that was lost or taken) : to return (someone or something)

A better word might be "transformed" like in Phil 3:20-21 "But our citizenship is in heaven, and we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables Him to subject all things to Himself, will transform our lowly bodies to be like His glorious body."
But I believe "translate" is also commonly used, as like "translating a word" from one language to another, so our bodies will be "translated" from perishable to imperishable "language".

"Restoring" would also be a good word as before the Fall creation would also have been imperishable... I was basically trying to relay the restoration of creation to our bodies being transformed imperishable. But "restoring" would not fit our bodies transformation because we never were in an imperishable state because we were received in original sin.

eleos1954 · Nov 7, 2021

AdB said:
A better word might be "transformed" like in Phil 3:20-21 "But our citizenship is in heaven, and we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables Him to subject all things to Himself, will transform our lowly bodies to be like His glorious body."
But I believe "translate" is also commonly used, as like "translating a word" from one language to another, so our bodies will be "translated" from perishable to imperishable "language".

"Restoring" would also be a good word as before the Fall creation would also have been imperishable... I was basically trying to relay the restoration of creation to our bodies being transformed imperishable. But "restoring" would not fit our bodies transformation because we never were in an imperishable state because we were received in original sin.

Original creation (before the fall) Adam and Eve were created immortal ... sin introduced pain, suffering and death into the world .... so we begin in Eden (immortal) and end in Eden (immortal) ... restored to a immortal state of being. Whether or not God creates everything (physical world/heavens, etc.) brand new or restores everything as it was created before the fall ... the outcome is the same .... eternal life of everything.

Immortal -
living forever; never dying or decaying.

AdB · Nov 7, 2021

eleos1954 said:
Original creation (before the fall) Adam and Eve were created immortal ... sin introduced pain, suffering and death into the world .... so we begin in Eden (immortal) and end in Eden (immortal) ... restored to a immortal state of being. Whether or not God creates everything (physical world/heavens, etc.) brand new or restores everything as it was created before the fall ... the outcome is the same .... eternal life of everything.

Immortal -
living forever; never dying or decaying.

agreed, but Rom 8:19-21 seems to indicate that the current creation will be transformed rather than "replaced".
The creation waits in eager expectation for the revelation of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but because of the One who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

keras · Nov 7, 2021

AdB said:
The 6th seal indeed speaks of "the sky receding like a scroll being rolled up", but there seems to be no reference to consuming fire

The Sixth Seal is the Day of the Lord's vengeance and wrath. There are 70 other prophesies about that Day, which say the Lord will use fire to carry out His Judgment. He will send fire; Psalms 11:4-6, Amos 1 & 2:1-5

The phenomenon of our atmosphere being pushed aside at the place of impact; Zephaniah 2:4, will be the result of the pressure wave of a huge Coronal Mass Ejection.
This forthcoming CME, Isaiah 30:26, will literally fulfil all the graphically prophesied effects about that Day, a literal 24 hour day.

Creation & Eternity

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