Revelation 20:4 is proof against a pre-tribulation rapture.

[RileyG]

I guess you are.

1) Jesus comes on the clouds (second coming),
2) the dead are raised (resurrection),
3) the believers are caught up in the clouds to (go out and) meet the Lord in the air (rapture) (1 Th 4:17), and
to accompany him back to earth (parousia), as they went out and accompanied Jesus back into Jerusalem on Palm Sunday,
4) for the sheep and goats final (judgment).

All at the end of time.

That was never my understanding of the Rapture...interesting...

 

[YorkieGal]

Now all you have to decide is whether to believe it.

Just so I can engage in this discussion with a modicum of intellect, is it your position that born again Christians are raptured before the tribulation and those that are saved during the tribulation will be taken during the 2nd coming?

Just want to check because that is how I was raised but I don't know if I'm on the same page with anyone about this subject since 'rapture' and '2nd coming' are often used in different ways by different denominations.

Thank you x

 

[sandman]

There cannot be a pre-tribulation rapture if Christians are to be tempted to worship the beast or receive its mark as is clearly seen in this scripture. This is proof we will be here during the beast's reign.

I believe when Jesus calls us into the clouds (1 Thessalonians 4:16) this is the literal clouds on Earth, not in heaven. I believe this will happen on or shortly before judgement day. For Jesus to take us to heaven before Armageddon would require him to take us there and come back again resulting in a 3rd coming which is unscriptural. I believe we will be by his side on that day watching/helping him defeat evil once and for all.

What is great about God’s Word is….it’s not susceptible to change.... by what people believe.


The mark of the beast will not take place until Revelation…. The events of the book of Revelation will not take place until the culmination of the administration (dispensation) of Grace.

The administration of grace (this period we now live in) comprises the mystery of the one body (Jews and Gentiles fellow heirs) the one new man. It also encompasses everything that Jesus Christ accomplished for us, and God accepted on our behalf.

The mystery of the one body was not made known until Paul received it by revelation from Jesus Christ. And because it was a mystery…. anything related to that would not have existed.

The “Day of the Lord/ The Lords Day” which deals with the second coming of Christ to the earth had been known for centuries …it was not a mystery…But “the gathering together unto Him” (rapture) was a mystery → 1Co 15:51. And since the rapture ONLY involves born again believers, those in Christ both dead and alive as 1Th 4:13-18 speaks to. … None of prophecy in the gospels or the OT can give reference to the rapture …all of that prophecy refers to the events of Revelation.

That also means that there is approximately a 7 year time span from the time of the rapture to the time when He comes back to the physical earth ….the Mount of Olives.

 

[Clare73]

Just so I can engage in this discussion with a modicum of intellect, is it your position that born again Christians are raptured before the tribulation and those that are saved during the tribulation will be taken during the 2nd coming?

Just want to check because that is how I was raised but I don't know if I'm on the same page with anyone about this subject since 'rapture' and '2nd coming' are often used in different ways by different denominations.

Thank you x

BTW, I've lost my two Corgis, and will be happy to baby-sit your Yorkie.

Well, NT apostolic teaching authoritative to the church (Lk 10:16) presents the four ending events occurring in the same time frame at the end (posts #6, #16), so the tribulation would have to be prior to all of them.

 

[YorkieGal]

BTW, I've lost my two Corgis, and will be happy to take your Yorkie.

Well, the NT presents the four ending events occurring in the same time fame (posts #6, #16) at the end, so the tribulation would have to be prior to all of them.

Oh, no! I'm sorry about your Corgis!!!

I think I better get to reading the Bible and refresh what I think I know, versus what I learned, versus what I still need to learn.

Thanks for answering!

 

[Clare73]

Oh, no! I'm sorry about your Corgis!!!

I think I better get to reading the Bible and refresh what I think I know, versus what I learned, versus what I still need to learn.

Thanks for answering!

I may be able to point you to where the difference lies.

You were probably taught interpretations of prophecy, while what I presented was NT apostolic teaching authoritative to the church (Lk 10:16).

 

[YorkieGal]

I can point you to where the difference lies.

You were probably taught interpretations of prophecy, while what I presented was NT apostolic teaching authoritative to the church (Lk 10:16).

I think there is some confusion because I was raised Pentecostal Holiness but also Southern Baptist.

Billy Graham states that he is aware there are 2 views and the Bible is not clear which is which but we will all be made aware when it occurs!

What is the rapture? - The Billy Graham Evangelistic Association of Canada

What is important is that all Christians hold in common that Christ will ultimately return bodily, visibly, gloriously, to reign and rule with His resurrected and transformed saints forever and ever.

www.billygraham.ca

I didn't know that this was confusing or unanswered or controversial, until recently, but I don't know how much it matters in the grand scheme of things since we all seem to be aligned in believing Christ is coming back, at some point, for believers who are living and dead.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Keeping in mind that the rapture occurs with the resurrection.

Jesus locates the resurrection in the last day (John 6:39).
Paul locates the resurrection with the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:16).
Jesus locates the rapture with the second coming (Matthew 24:39-41).
Jesus locates the second coming with the judgment of the sheep and goats at the end of time (Matthew 25:31-33).

So in terms of the time of their occurrence, the coming of the Lord is in the last day at the judgment of all mankind at the end of time:

the last day (end of time) = resurrection = rapture = second coming = final judgment of sheep and goats (all mankind)

(And also let me point out that the resurrection being in the last day with the judgment of the sheep and goats--all mankind,
thereby makes only one resurrection. . .of all mankind).

Thank you. I like the location of these events being aligned as they should. Good post.

 

[Clare73]

What is great about God’s Word is….it’s not susceptible to change.... by what people believe.
The mark of the beast will not take place until Revelation…. The events of the book of Revelation will not take place until the culmination of the administration (dispensation) of Grace.
The administration of grace (this period we now live in) comprises the mystery of the one body (Jews and Gentiles fellow heirs) the one new man. It also encompasses everything that Jesus Christ accomplished for us, and God accepted on our behalf.
The mystery of the one body was not made known until Paul received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.

However, we see references to it in the OT promises to the patriarchs in 2 Sa 22:50, Ps 18:49, Dt 32:43, Ps 117:1, Isa 11:10 (Ro 15:8-12).

And because it was a mystery…. anything related to that would not have existed.

Keeping in mind that mystery in the NT means something never before revealed, a "secret."
It does not mean something difficult or impossible to understand.

The “Day of the Lord/ The Lords Day” which deals with the second coming of Christ to the earth had been known for centuries …it was not a mystery…But “the gathering together unto Him” (rapture) was a mystery → 1Co 15:51.

However, the mystery of 1 Co 15:51 does not refer to the rapture of all believers.
It refers to the believers who will not die a natural death, because they are alive when Jesus returns for the resurrection, rapture and judgment, and who, therefore, will not be "rising from the grave" with new transformed bodies in the resurrection (1 Co 15:42-44),
but instead, their living physical natural (sinful, mortal, weak) bodies will be transformed "in the twinkling of an eye" (instantaneously) into physical spiritual (sinless, immortal, powerful) bodies (1 Co 15:44), as are the resurrected.
The rapture is not the "mystery" referred to in 1 Co 15:51.

And since the rapture ONLY involves born again believers, those in Christ both dead and alive as 1Th 4:13-18 speaks to. … None of prophecy in the gospels or the OT can give reference to the rapture

Mt 24:31 does: "And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other."

Would 1 Co 15:51-54 regarding the transformation of those still living when Jesus returns be NT "prophecy"?
Would 1 Th 4:16-17 regarding the rapture be NT "prophecy"?

 

[eleos1954]

There cannot be a pre-tribulation rapture if Christians are to be tempted to worship the beast or receive its mark as is clearly seen in this scripture. This is proof we will be here during the beast's reign.

I believe when Jesus calls us into the clouds (1 Thessalonians 4:16) this is the literal clouds on Earth, not in heaven. I believe this will happen on or shortly before judgement day. For Jesus to take us to heaven before Armageddon would require him to take us there and come back again resulting in a 3rd coming which is unscriptural. I believe we will be by his side on that day watching/helping him defeat evil once and for all.

When Jesus returns judgement has been completed by Him. Those (1st resurrection) are taken to heaven for 1,000 years? Why? The books are opened .... every judgement God made in regard to the lost and saved (even the secret things) will be revealed to show His judgement was perfect. After the 1,000 years the 2nd resurrection of the lost takes place. God don't hide anything about His judgements ... all the lost and saved (even satan and the fallen angels) will know the reason for His judgement and all will agree with it.

Philippians 2:10-11 Amplified Bible (AMP)so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW [in submission], of those who are in heaven (the saved) and on earth (the resurrected lost) and under the earth (out of the graves), and that every tongue will confess and openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord (sovereign God), to the glory of God the Father.

3rd coming? The term second coming, does not exclude a third. The bible teaches what events will take place. At the second coming judgement has taken place ... what remains is the execution of that judgement for eternity (ie the resurrection of the lost yet to take place) ... so yeah a 3rd coming if one wants to look at it that way and when you look at the events it is indeed scriptural.

Clouds are often symbolic for angels.

Revelation 1:7​

Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen.

With ... not in or behind clouds ... we also know when He returns the angels return with Him.

 

[sandman]

Clare73 said:

​

However, we see references to it in the OT promises to the patriarchs in 2 Sa 22:50, Ps 18:49, Dt 32:43, Ps 117:1, Isa 11:10 (Ro 15:8-12).

It was no secret that that the blessing of Abraham would come on the Gentiles …of course looking back it would seem apparent to us …what that is…. that is the advantage of hindsight…. but there was no clue as to the mystery of the Jews & Gentiles being fellow heirs and of the same body….. that was Gods sacred secret.

Keeping in mind that mystery in the NT means something never before revealed, a "secret."
It does not mean something difficult or impossible to understand.

I don’t mean to be rude …but that does not make any sense…. If it’s a secret known only to God …it’s a secret known only to God. 1Co 2:6-8.
That means it did not exist within the physical realm. But once it was revealed, as it was to Paul (Rom 16:25&26 …. Eph 3:3 -9 …. Col 1:25&26) …then it could be understood.

Even the prophets of old and the angels desired to see what was between the sufferings and the glory …to no avail 1Pe 1:10-12 …because the secret things belong to God Deu 29:29

However, the mystery of 1 Co 15:51 does not refer to the rapture of all believers.
It refers to the believers who will not die a natural death, because they are alive when Jesus returns for the resurrection, rapture and judgment, and who, therefore, will not be "rising from the grave" with new transformed bodies in the resurrection (1 Co 15:42-44),
but instead, their living physical natural (sinful, mortal, weak) bodies will be transformed "in the twinkling of an eye" (instantaneously) into physical spiritual (sinless, immortal, powerful) bodies (1 Co 15:44), as are the resurrected.
The rapture is not the "mystery" referred to in 1 Co 15:51.

I didn’t say the rapture was “the” mystery.... but it was “a” secret (mystery) …and if words mean things…. then it was a secret that had not been revealed ….at least to the believers of Corinth at that time.

This epistle was written to the church of God…. born again believers 1Co 1:1&2. Follow the pronouns from brethren in 1Co 15:50 “us” “we” “you” “all” …If it is addressed to us.... it cannot be referring to anybody else.

Mt 24:31 does: "And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other."

I know it’s similar …but similar is not identical. With Gods word there is no ambiguity, particularly when context (both locally and remoter) corroborates its particular time frame and to whom it’s targeted.
Matthew was directed at Israel and that entire chapter 24 is talking about the great tribulation (Mat 24:21) which is only mentioned here and 2 more X in Revelation.

Comparing the two verses:

Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Matthew says ... angels (plural) with a great sound of a trumpet …. and they shall gather together his elect

1 Thessalonians says … The Lord descends from heaven with a shout (keleusma) with the voice of the archangel (singular) with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first.

If we have only one difference between the two, it violates the law of logic which dictates that contradictory propositions cannot both be true in the same sense at the same time,

Even though one verse may not give all the specifics concerning the same event, (which is common in the gospels) but if you have contradiction(s) regarding the same subject…it is not the same event.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Clare ...These two verses below ↓ I did not really understand the question with these, so I didn't comment.

Would 1 Co 15:51-54 regarding the transformation of those still living when Jesus returns be NT "prophecy"?
Would 1 Th 4:16-17 regarding the rapture be NT "prophecy"?

 

[Clare73]

It was no secret that that the blessing of Abraham would come on the Gentiles …of course looking back it would seem apparent to us …what that is…. that is the advantage of hindsight…. but there was no clue as to the mystery of the Jews & Gentiles being fellow heirs and of the same body….. that was Gods sacred secret.

Clare73 said:

Keeping in mind that mystery in the NT means something never before revealed, a "secret."
It does not mean something difficult or impossible to understand.

I don’t mean to be rude …but that does not make any sense…. If it’s a secret known only to God …it’s a secret known only to God. 1Co 2:6-8.
That means it did not exist within the physical realm. But once it was revealed, as it was to Paul (Rom 16:25&26 …. Eph 3:3 -9 …. Col 1:25&26) …then it could be understood.

Mystery (in common parlance) = difficult or impossible to understand--->God has no beginning. . .Can't understand that, can't process it.
Secret = something not previously revealed--->Gentile and Jew will become part of the one body of Christ.

Even the prophets of old and the angels desired to see what was between the sufferings and the glory …to no avail 1Pe 1:10-12 …because the secret things belong to God Deu 29:29
I didn’t say the rapture was “the” mystery.... but it was “a” secret (mystery) …and if words mean things…. then it was a secret that had not been revealed ….at least to the believers of Corinth at that time.

However, whereas Paul states the events of 1 Tim 3:16, 1 Co 2:1, Eph 1:9, 3:3-6, 1 Co 15:51 and Ro 11:25 as mysteries, he does not refer to the second coming, resurrection and rapture as mysteries in 1 Th 4:16-17, for Jesus had already revealed them in Mt 24:30-32.

This epistle was written to the church of God…. born again believers 1Co 1:1&2. Follow the pronouns from brethren in 1Co 15:50 “us” “we” “you” “all” …If it is addressed to us.... it cannot be referring to anybody else.
I know it’s similar …but similar is not identical. With Gods word there is no ambiguity, particularly when context (both locally and remoter) corroborates its particular time frame and to whom it’s targeted.
Matthew was directed at Israel and that entire chapter 24 is talking about the great tribulation (Mat 24:21) which is only mentioned here and 2 more X in Revelation.

Actually, chp 24 reveals "the end of the age" (Mt 24:3) for both the OT and the NT church:
NT church = Mt 24:1-14 and 23-35
OT church = Mt 24:15-25

Comparing the two verses:
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Matthew says ... angels (plural) with a great sound of a trumpet …. and they shall gather together his elect
1 Thessalonians says … The Lord descends from heaven with a shout (keleusma) with the voice of the archangel (singular) with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first.
If we have only one difference between the two, it violates the law of logic which dictates that contradictory propositions cannot both be true in the same sense at the same time,
Even though one verse may not give all the specifics concerning the same event, (which is common in the gospels) but if you have contradiction(s) regarding the same subject…it is not the same event.

There are no contradictions in those two verse.

Clare ...These two verses below ↓ I did not really understand the question with these, so I didn't comment.

Since they refer to events yet future, could we call them "NT prophecy"?

 

[Bobber]

Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Regardless of whether one believes this takes place Pre Trib/ Post Trib or whatever.....what does everyone think the Trumpet sound will be like. Is it a metaphor or a real sounding trump? I know this isn't important but I do find it interesting. I sometimes like on youtube to hear of rapture dreams......some say they heard the trumpet and it had an effect that it almost shook the earth and scared the wits out of people.

 

[rdclmn72]

The pre-tribulation rapture is based on one single verse in Daniel.
For those that believe in going to heaven when they die, you have to consider the following;
1. you can't be in two places at the same time, you are either in the grave to be resurrected or you're in heaven waiting to return to your body only to go back to heaven.
2.the doctrine serves to discredit God's purpose in rewarding the faith of believers and holding mankind to account for what was done while alive.

 

[rdclmn72]

Regardless of whether one believes this takes place Pre Trib/ Post Trib or whatever.....what does everyone think the Trumpet sound will be like. Is it a metaphor or a real sounding trump? I know this isn't important but I do find it interesting. I sometimes like on youtube to hear of rapture dreams......some say they heard the trumpet and it had an effect that it almost shook the earth and scared the wits out of people.

Numbers 10 talks of two trumpets used to call the encamped tribes to battle or moving out along their way forward.
One trumpet calls, the other responds, confirming the message.

 

[Clare73]

The pre-tribulation rapture is based on one single verse in Daniel.
For those that believe in going to heaven when they die, you have to consider the following;
1. you can't be in two places at the same time, you are either in the grave to be resurrected or you're in heaven waiting to return to your body only to go back to heaven.

You're in both, right?
Your body is in the grave, but the spirits of the born again are in heaven, waiting to return to their bodies at the resurrection, to then be caught up in the air to go out to meet the Lord at his second coming and to accompany him back to earth (parousia, as they went out to meet Jesus and accompany him back to Jerusalem on Palm Sunday) for the final judgment of the sheep and the goats.

2.the doctrine serves to discredit God's purpose in rewarding the faith of believers and holding mankind to account for what was done while alive.

 

[AYM]

The pre-tribulation rapture is based on one single verse in Daniel.
For those that believe in going to heaven when they die, you have to consider the following;
1. you can't be in two places at the same time, you are either in the grave to be resurrected or you're in heaven waiting to return to your body only to go back to heaven.
2.the doctrine serves to discredit God's purpose in rewarding the faith of believers and holding mankind to account for what was done while alive.

It's been a few weeks since I've posted here.

To be fair, as a former dispensationalist, if you're referring to Daniel 9:27, that's the verse used to justify the while rebuilt temple/anti-Christ betraying people in the middle of a 7 year tribulation idea. As far as a pre-tribulation rapture, there are plenty of other verses used to back that claim. Though again, I no longer ascribe to dispensationalism.

I will ask you this, though. Revelation 7:9 - who are these people, and where are they?