Revelation 20:4 is proof against a pre-tribulation rapture.

[Riot42]

Revelation 20:4 (NIV)

I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

There cannot be a pre-tribulation rapture if Christians are to be tempted to worship the beast or receive its mark as is clearly seen in this scripture. This is proof we will be here during the beast's reign.

I believe when Jesus calls us into the clouds (1 Thessalonians 4:16) this is the literal clouds on Earth, not in heaven. I believe this will happen on or shortly before judgement day. For Jesus to take us to heaven before Armageddon would require him to take us there and come back again resulting in a 3rd coming which is unscriptural. I believe we will be by his side on that day watching/helping him defeat evil once and for all.

 

[lanceleo]

These are the people that are saved and become Christians during the tribulation.

 

[Riot42]

These are the people that are saved and become Christians during the tribulation.

So when do you suppose we will be persecuted and put to death as it says in Matthew 24:9? There is no mention of a rapture in Matthew 24 (nor anywhere else in the bible for that matter) It very clearly states we will be persecuted and put to death. Not some newly minted christians after a rapture which is a stretch of the scripture at best no where does it say what you claim.

 

[Sorn]

So when do you suppose we will be persecuted and put to death as it says in Matthew 24:9? There is no mention of a rapture in Matthew 24 (nor anywhere else in the bible for that matter) It very clearly states we will be persecuted and put to death. Not some newly minted christians after a rapture which is a stretch of the scripture at best no where does it say what you claim.

You need to keep in mind that Jesus was talking to Jews not Christians & He was talking ABOUT Jews & not about Christians.

There may be no Christians during the tribulation as grace alone will not be available anymore.

Currently we are in the Church age, ie the Dispensation of Grace, the time when God extends salvation to the Gentiles.
This began effectively with the conversion of Saul, the Apostle to the Gentiles.
God will eventually bring the Dispensation of Grace to an end, and that will be marked by the rapture.
At the Rapture He will take the Church OUT of the world. There will be no more (true) church on earth.

Then God will turn His attention back to the Jews, He has not abandoned them, just put them aside for the time being.
ALL His promises to the Jew will be fulfilled. When the church is no longer on Earth God will deal with the Jews under the Covenant He has with them. That is the last week of the 70 week prophecy. The 7 year tribulation. Jesus is their Messiah and He will save them from complete destruction and He will then establish the Jewish Kingdom for 1000 years.

To be saved during this period of time you must not take the mark of the beast & you must believe that Jesus is the Messiah of the Jews.
You may need to become a Messianic Jew that believes Jesus is the Messiah but in any case you must endure (not take the mark of the beast) till the end of your life or the 7 year tribulation, whichever comes 1st.

But all this happens AFTER the church has been removed from the Earth, ie end of Dispensation of Grace.

 

[Riot42]

You need to keep in mind that Jesus was talking to Jews not Christians & He was talking ABOUT Jews & not about Christians.

John 15:18 disagrees, he is talking about his followers just as he is in Matthew.

There may be no Christians during the tribulation as grace alone will not be available anymore.

Revelation 20:4 disagrees, if someone is giving testimony to Jesus and refusing the mark, there are christians during the tribulation.

Pretty much everything you said is based on extra-biblical teachings such as dispensationalism which was made up in the 1800s and takes huge logic leaps not based in scripture. It is just as false teaching as the book of mormon.

To put us on the same page im going to ask you to stick to scripture as I have done, please prove the case for a pre tribulation rapture using only scripture, as I have proven a case against it using only scripture.

 

[Clare73]

There cannot be a pre-tribulation rapture if Christians are to be tempted to worship the beast or receive its mark as is clearly seen in this scripture. This is proof we will be here during the beast's reign.

I believe when Jesus calls us into the clouds (1 Thessalonians 4:16) this is the literal clouds on Earth, not in heaven. I believe this will happen on or shortly before judgement day. For Jesus to take us to heaven before Armageddon would require him to take us there and come back again resulting in a 3rd coming which is unscriptural. I believe we will be by his side on that day watching/helping him defeat evil once and for all.

Keeping in mind that the rapture occurs with the resurrection.

Jesus locates the resurrection in the last day (John 6:39).
Paul locates the resurrection with the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:16).
Jesus locates the rapture with the second coming (Matthew 24:39-41).
Jesus locates the second coming with the judgment of the sheep and goats at the end of time (Matthew 25:31-33).

So in terms of the time of their occurrence, the coming of the Lord is in the last day at the judgment of all mankind at the end of time:

the last day (end of time) = resurrection = rapture = second coming = final judgment of sheep and goats (all mankind)

(And also let me point out that the resurrection being in the last day with the judgment of the sheep and goats--all mankind,
thereby makes only one resurrection. . .of all mankind).

 

[RileyG]

The Rapture was invented by John Darby in 1830. It is NOT biblical.

 

[Riot42]

Keeping in mind that the rapture occurs with the resurrection.

Jesus locates the resurrection in the last day (John 6:39).
Paul locates the resurrection with the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:16).
Jesus locates the rapture with the second coming (Matthew 24:39-41).
Jesus locates the second coming with the judgment of the sheep and goats at the end of time (Matthew 25:31-33).

So in terms of the time of their occurrence, the coming of the Lord is in the last day at the judgment of all mankind at the end of time:

the last day (end of time) = resurrection = rapture = second coming = final judgment of sheep and goats (all mankind)

(And also let me point out that the resurrection being in the last day with the judgment of the sheep and goats--all mankind,
thereby makes only one resurrection. . .of all mankind).

Saving this, you built such a strong case you should consider being an attorney!

 

[Clare73]

The Rapture was invented by John Darby in 1830. It is NOT biblical.

Are you serious?

1 Th 4:17:

"After that (the resurrection), we who are still alive and are left will be caught up (Greek: harpazo; Latin: rapturo; English: rapture) together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air."

 

[RileyG]

Are you serious?

1 Th 4:17:

"After that (the resurrection), we who are still alive and are left will be caught up (Greek: harpazo; Latin: rapturo; English: rapture) together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air."

Yes, I'm serious. I do not believe in the Rapture at all.

 

[RileyG]

I also believe 1 thes. 4:17 refers to Christ's second coming at the end of the time, and not the rapture. Most Christians do not believe in the Rapture. It is mostly accepted by Pentecostals and some Southern Baptist groups.

 

[YorkieGal]

I also believe 1 thes. 4:17 refers to Christ's second coming at the end of the time, and not the rapture. Most Christians do not believe in the Rapture. It is mostly accepted by Pentecostals and some Southern Baptist groups.

I was raised Pentecostal & Southern Baptist - both believe in the rapture. I asked my mom why I was reading the Bible in a different way i.e. did not see where there were 2 comings of Christ and well..........let's just say I backed down because she's my mom but I just don't know..

Presume when we say rapture we are saying pre-trib and 2nd coming, afterwards. If not, apologies and ignore me!

 

[Clare73]

Yes, I'm serious. I do not believe in the Rapture at all.

Then you don't believe the word of God in 1 Th 4:17.

 

[YorkieGal]

Then you don't believe the word of God in 1 Th 4:17.

Hi Clare, are you Southern Baptist or Pentecostal?

 

[RileyG]

Then you don't believe the word of God in 1 Th 4:17.

Respectfully, why would Jesus return twice or am I misunderstanding the Rapture?

God bless

 

[Clare73]

I also believe 1 thes. 4:17 refers to Christ's second coming at the end of the time, and not the rapture. Most Christians do not believe in the Rapture. It is mostly accepted by Pentecostals and some Southern Baptist groups.

It all happens at the end of time according to NT apostolic teaching of John, Paul and Matthew.

Jesus locates the resurrection in the last day (John 6:39).
Paul locates the resurrection with the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:16).
Jesus locates the rapture with the second coming (Matthew 24:39-41).
Jesus locates the second coming with the judgment of the sheep and goats at the end of time (Matthew 25:31-33).

So in terms of the time of their occurrence, the coming of the Lord is in the last day at the judgment of all mankind at the end of time:

the last day (end of time) = resurrection = rapture = second coming = final judgment of sheep and goats (all mankind)

(And also let me point out that the resurrection being in the last day with the judgment of the sheep and goats--all mankind,
thereby makes only one resurrection. . .of all mankind).

 

[RileyG]

It all happens at the end of time according to NT apostolic teaching of John, Paul and Matthew.

Jesus locates the resurrection in the last day (John 6:39).
Paul locates the resurrection with the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:16).
Jesus locates the rapture with the second coming (Matthew 24:39-41).
Jesus locates the second coming with the judgment of the sheep and goats at the end of time (Matthew 25:31-33).

So in terms of the time of their occurrence, the coming of the Lord is in the last day at the judgment of all mankind at the end of time:

the last day (end of time) = resurrection = rapture = second coming = final judgment of sheep and goats (all mankind)

(And also let me point out that the resurrection being in the last day with the judgment of the sheep and goats--all mankind,
thereby makes only one resurrection. . .of all mankind).

Thank you for quoting Scripture and your response. It is appreciated.

 

[Clare73]

Hi Clare, are you Southern Baptist or Pentecostal?

Yes.

In my heart, I'm a Baptist, while in my theology, I'm a WCF Presbyterian.

 

[Clare73]

Thank you for quoting Scripture and your response. It is appreciated.

Now all you have to decide is whether to believe it.

 

[Clare73]

Respectfully, why would Jesus return twice or am I misunderstanding the Rapture?

God bless

I guess you are.

1) Jesus comes on the clouds (second coming),
2) the dead are raised (resurrection),
3) the believers are caught up in the clouds to (go out and) meet the Lord in the air (rapture) (1 Th 4:17), and
to accompany him back to earth (parousia), as they went out to meet and accompany Jesus back into Jerusalem on Palm Sunday,
4) for the sheep and goats final (judgment).

All at the end of time.