How much time does one speculate the GWTJ might involve?

Jamdoc · Oct 3, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
Meaning Eden? or Heaven? Eden, we don't know if the sun was used for time. Heaven, the Glory of the Lord will light it.

the whole "evening and morning were the x day" thing. God was using the sun for time in Genesis 1, at least that's kind of the basis of Young Earth Creationism.

Mark Quayle · Oct 4, 2021

Jamdoc said:
the whole "evening and morning were the x day" thing. God was using the sun for time in Genesis 1, at least that's kind of the basis of Young Earth Creationism.

And yet the sun wasn't there until the fourth "evening and morning" day.

Timtofly · Oct 5, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
And yet the sun wasn't there until the fourth "evening and morning" day.

A few days of darkness then, but still 24 hours with an evening and a morning. It was dark, because light came first and then darkness. Now God could have just kept making it light and dark, for those days, but I think only the plants on the third day would have noticed a difference. Water would not care one way or the other.

Plants germinate in darkness just fine, so when they sprang up on the morning of the 4th day, they had the sunlight as needed.

AntiVillain · Oct 22, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
Haha, no it is not brainwash.

"To affect one's mind by using extreme mental pressure or any other mind-affecting process" (https://www.wordnik.com/words/brainwash).
Isn't that what you said happens to us in Heaven?

Mark Quayle · Oct 22, 2021

AntiVillain said:
"To affect one's mind by using extreme mental pressure or any other mind-affecting process" (https://www.wordnik.com/words/brainwash).
Isn't that what you said happens to us in Heaven?

No. WE will be changed.

Mark Quayle · Oct 22, 2021

Jamdoc said:
the whole "evening and morning were the x day" thing. God was using the sun for time in Genesis 1, at least that's kind of the basis of Young Earth Creationism.

"3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day." happened, (to all appearances, according to the sequence of the account), happened 3 days before setting the sun and moon to govern the day and night. "14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth.” And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day."

Jamdoc · Oct 22, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
No. WE will be changed.

If your mind is changed to that much of a degree, that is brainwash, you just don't like the term.

Spiritual Jew · Oct 22, 2021

DavidPT said:
I don't know if it does go against Revelation, I was only pointing out that I can't picture that in my mind. If someone else can picture it in their mind, their mind is not my mind. I'm only meaning me here, that I can't picture this pertaining to the GWTJ. That doesn't automatically make you wrong because I can't picture it myself, it just means I'm not seeing it.

This thread also has to do with the debate between Premil and Amil, and that I'm currently Premil. Amil proposes that the GWTJ begins and finishes within the same last literal day of this age.

No, Amils do not believe that! We believe that time will have ended before the point when the GWTJ occurs. Stop misrepresenting what we believe. You are just making assumptions without even asking us first. That's ridiculous.

Look at this verse carefully:

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

How could time as we know it still exist at that point when the heaven and earth will have been removed (they will be burned up - 2 Peter 3:10-12)? As someone else has said in this thread, for all we know God could just judge everyone at the same time the same way He hears all our prayers at the same time. We simply don't know, so all any of us can do is speculate about this.

If time still existed as we know it at that point and He judged everyone one at a time then obviously it would take a lot longer than 24 hours. If that was the case, so be it. It wouldn't contradict Amil since Amil doesn't claim that the GWTJ has to take place within 24 hours. You made that assumption without bothering to find out what we actually believe about this.

Please do not ever try speaking for Amils again because you have proven repeatedly that you don't even understand some of the things we believe. We do not need or want you as a spokesperson.

I know I'm getting in on this late, but I somehow missed this thread until now.

Mark Quayle · Oct 22, 2021

Jamdoc said:
If your mind is changed to that much of a degree, that is brainwash, you just don't like the term.

We will be changed, including our minds.

Do you consider your first birth to be brainwashing?

Jamdoc · Oct 22, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
We will be changed, including our minds.

Do you consider your first birth to be brainwashing?

Nope, but in any condition where your mind just gets wiped and replaced with something else, yes that could be considered brainwashing.
Supplying new information and having you come to a different conclusion than you previously had on your own is not brainwashing, which is what I suggest.
But simply rewriting your mind to think differently without you making a choice in the matter is brainwashing.
That's why I don't believe that is what God does.
and that gives the GWTJ purpose.
To illuminate for us, all the information that we need to come to agreement with God.
rather than instantaneous memory wipes and reprogramming.
We still have free will, which was God's idea. Not a bunch of robots.

If we just all got brainwashed to agree with God
there'd be no need for GWTJ
God has already made His decision, He can just reprogram us to agree with it and reprogram those condemned to accept it. Without the GWTJ
the GWTJ is for us to come to our own conclusions using our own free will, which makes it a necessary thing.

God doesn't just say zap, now you agree with me
God says "Come now, and let us reason together"

if you're arguing for instantaneous memory wipes and reprogramming/brainwash, even if you don't want to use those terms because you recognize that they would be a bad way to come to agreement with God, you're arguing against the GWTJ even being necessary. It becomes a vain formality.

Spiritual Jew · Oct 22, 2021

Jamdoc said:
Nope, but in any condition where your mind just gets wiped and replaced with something else, yes that could be considered brainwashing.
Supplying new information and having you come to a different conclusion than you previously had on your own is not brainwashing, which is what I suggest.
But simply rewriting your mind to think differently without you making a choice in the matter is brainwashing.
That's why I don't believe that is what God does.
and that gives the GWTJ purpose.
To illuminate for us, all the information that we need to come to agreement with God.
rather than instantaneous memory wipes and reprogramming.
We still have free will, which was God's idea. Not a bunch of robots.

If we just all got brainwashed to agree with God
there'd be no need for GWTJ
God has already made His decision, He can just reprogram us to agree with it and reprogram those condemned to accept it. Without the GWTJ
the GWTJ is for us to come to our own conclusions using our own free will, which makes it a necessary thing.

God doesn't just say zap, now you agree with me
God says "Come now, and let us reason together"

if you're arguing for instantaneous memory wipes and reprogramming/brainwash, even if you don't want to use those terms because you recognize that they would be a bad way to come to agreement with God, you're arguing against the GWTJ even being necessary. It becomes a vain formality.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like you think that people's eternal destinies will not already be determined before the GWTJ commences. Is that what you believe? Do you think people will still get a chance to repent at that time and change their destinies?

Jamdoc · Oct 22, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like you think that people's eternal destinies will not already be determined before the GWTJ commences. Is that what you believe? Do you think people will still get a chance to repent at that time and change their destinies?

No, the GWTJ is not to decide, it's to display how God came to His decision FOR US.
Think of it in a way like some murder mystery movie or book. The investigator might already know who the killer is and is convinced of his guilt, but the other characters don't know, so they go through the whole story, with the evidence piling up, then at the end, the investigator reveals who the killer is, and explains all the evidence against them that convicts them.

God already knows who the guilty are, He sees the evidence against those people as those sins happen in real time. WE do not however, we're the other characters in the movie who are clueless. The GWTJ is the climax of the story where the investigator, God, reveals to us who's guilty and why.

Understand that we will witness people we cared about, that we thought were good people, being sent to hell, and yet we will have to be okay with that result, otherwise, we won't be able to be happy, knowing that people we love are eternally suffering.
There are 2 ways to reconcile this.
1. Instantaneous mind wipes like some people teach, but is ignorance and brainwash really what a loving God does that gave us free will? Just take away the free will and reprogram us to unquestionably agree with Him? What then is the purpose of the GWTJ? Inb4 it's just an allegory.
or
2. "Come now, and let us reason together", an opportunity for God to show us all the sins that this person we love really commit that we currently don't know about, so that you will 100%, now knowing the whole story, be able to come to agreement on your own with your free will, that God has done justly.
This gives the GWTJ purpose. It also shows that God does things FOR US and for our benefit.

God doesn't need the GWTJ, He already knows who the guilty are, and has all the evidence. We don't, so we need it.

Mark Quayle · Oct 22, 2021

Jamdoc said:
Nope, but in any condition where your mind just gets wiped and replaced with something else, yes that could be considered brainwashing.
Supplying new information and having you come to a different conclusion than you previously had on your own is not brainwashing, which is what I suggest.
But simply rewriting your mind to think differently without you making a choice in the matter is brainwashing.
That's why I don't believe that is what God does.
and that gives the GWTJ purpose.
To illuminate for us, all the information that we need to come to agreement with God.
rather than instantaneous memory wipes and reprogramming.
We still have free will, which was God's idea. Not a bunch of robots.

If we just all got brainwashed to agree with God
there'd be no need for GWTJ
God has already made His decision, He can just reprogram us to agree with it and reprogram those condemned to accept it. Without the GWTJ
the GWTJ is for us to come to our own conclusions using our own free will, which makes it a necessary thing.

God doesn't just say zap, now you agree with me
God says "Come now, and let us reason together"

if you're arguing for instantaneous memory wipes and reprogramming/brainwash, even if you don't want to use those terms because you recognize that they would be a bad way to come to agreement with God, you're arguing against the GWTJ even being necessary. It becomes a vain formality.

Well, for whatever it is worth, God changes our will, and so, in a sense, our minds, when we are born again. Call it brainwashing or anything else you like, it is not as though he doesn't have the right to do so, nor even that he has no right to make us a different person for his own use. It seems to me that your assessment is that he doesn't respect us as "what we originally are", when to me there is no reason for us to be respected as such.

The soul is what remains when this husk is shed; the mind, perhaps, just a tool. I don't know how to say just what is what, because in my opinion even this very body is remade glorified, not just discarded. I see no reason to have to understand how this works to know that what is really US remains.

As for the relationship of this question to the GWT, I doubt any of our concepts or imaginations do justice to what will happen there. But I have no doubt our souls, and consciousness will be there. What you want to claim is or is not necessary, you have no way of even knowing what it is. Just a partially-formed concept.

Jamdoc · Oct 22, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
Well, for whatever it is worth, God changes our will, and so, in a sense, our minds, when we are born again. Call it brainwashing or anything else you like, it is not as though he doesn't have the right to do so, nor even that he has no right to make us a different person for his own use. It seems to me that your assessment is that he doesn't respect us as "what we originally are", when to me there is no reason for us to be respected as such.

The soul is what remains when this husk is shed; the mind, perhaps, just a tool. I don't know how to say just what is what, because in my opinion even this very body is remade glorified, not just discarded. I see no reason to have to understand how this works to know that what is really US remains.

As for the relationship of this question to the GWT, I doubt any of our concepts or imaginations do justice to what will happen there. But I have no doubt our souls, and consciousness will be there. What you want to claim is or is not necessary, you have no way of even knowing what it is. Just a partially-formed concept.

God doesn't do anything in vain.
and if we were all just brainwashed to agree without question like robots?
The GWTJ would be vanity.
It would serve no purpose.
God already made the decision on these people before any of us were created.
But if God actually values us as more than just robots?
then it serves purpose.and is done for us to understand His judgements.

Does God have the right to make us robots if He wishes?
Sure.
God doesn't have to provide salvation or anything for us, He owes us nothing.
But if God actually did that. God could only be considered good in the "might makes right" way.
But rather, God is not just good because He has power, but He is good by human reckoning as well, and just, by human reckoning as well. God still acts in a way that when we know all the information, we'd say "He's right" and for more than just "He created us He can do whatever He wants"
Jesus exemplified that. showing that in our flesh, God exhibited all of the best human qualities, compassion, mercy, courage, resolve, justice, wisdom, patience, forgiveness. Every thing that you admire other people for doing, Jesus displayed it in His earthly ministry.

He COULD be an all powerful tyrant
But He isn't.
He could condemn us all to hell, and He'd be right to, but He doesn't, and He could just tell us to accept His judgement on those that He does sentence to hell, but it seems with the GWTJ.. He'd rather us see for ourselves that He's right. He doesn't owe us an explanation but He intends to give us one anyway.

Or do you have another explanation for the purpose of the GWTJ in your theology of an uncountable multitude of robots?

Spiritual Jew · Oct 23, 2021

Jamdoc said:
No, the GWTJ is not to decide, it's to display how God came to His decision FOR US.
Think of it in a way like some murder mystery movie or book. The investigator might already know who the killer is and is convinced of his guilt, but the other characters don't know, so they go through the whole story, with the evidence piling up, then at the end, the investigator reveals who the killer is, and explains all the evidence against them that convicts them.

God already knows who the guilty are, He sees the evidence against those people as those sins happen in real time. WE do not however, we're the other characters in the movie who are clueless. The GWTJ is the climax of the story where the investigator, God, reveals to us who's guilty and why.

Understand that we will witness people we cared about, that we thought were good people, being sent to hell, and yet we will have to be okay with that result, otherwise, we won't be able to be happy, knowing that people we love are eternally suffering.
There are 2 ways to reconcile this.
1. Instantaneous mind wipes like some people teach, but is ignorance and brainwash really what a loving God does that gave us free will? Just take away the free will and reprogram us to unquestionably agree with Him? What then is the purpose of the GWTJ? Inb4 it's just an allegory.
or
2. "Come now, and let us reason together", an opportunity for God to show us all the sins that this person we love really commit that we currently don't know about, so that you will 100%, now knowing the whole story, be able to come to agreement on your own with your free will, that God has done justly.
This gives the GWTJ purpose. It also shows that God does things FOR US and for our benefit.

God doesn't need the GWTJ, He already knows who the guilty are, and has all the evidence. We don't, so we need it.

So, you think we will witness others giving their accounts to God at the GWTJ? I don't tend to think that will happen. Seems that each person will deal one on one with God while giving an account to Him. But, we can only speculate on that.

Regardless, there clearly isn't going to be "instantaneous mind wipes" before the GWTJ because everyone has to give an account of themselves for what they did (Matt 25:31-46, Romans 14:10-12, Rev 20:11-15, etc.). How can people give an account of themselves if they can't remember what they did, right?

The "mind wipes" will occur when the GWTJ is over, as the following indicates:

Isaiah 65:17 “See, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind.

Obviously, it wouldn't make sense for us to be able to remember bad things that happened for eternity. That would cause us to suffer and we're not going to suffer for eternity in the new heavens and new earth.

Mark Quayle · Oct 23, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
So, you think we will witness others giving their accounts to God at the GWTJ? I don't tend to think that will happen. Seems that each person will deal one on one with God while giving an account to Him. But, we can only speculate on that.

Regardless, there clearly isn't going to be "instantaneous mind wipes" before the GWTJ because everyone has to give an account of themselves for what they did (Matt 25:31-46, Romans 14:10-12, Rev 20:11-15, etc.). How can people give an account of themselves if they can't remember what they did, right?

The "mind wipes" will occur when the GWTJ is over, as the following indicates:

Isaiah 65:17 “See, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind.

Obviously, it wouldn't make sense for us to be able to remember bad things that happened for eternity. That would cause us to suffer and we're not going to suffer for eternity in the new heavens and new earth.

Isaiah 65:17 may be a form of hyperbole or a way of making a point, much as Jesus said, if one "does not hate his mother and father etc..."

The indications of Scripture, to me at least, are that the reason "the former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind", is because of the overwhelming joy (and other things) that are before us to see and do and be, that by comparison the former things are no longer of the importance that we had (during this temporal life) attributed to them. I.e. the former things will still have their use in Heaven, in contexts such as praising him for his sacrifice, mercy, wisdom and love. See also the fact that the Word of God itself (himself) will still be active. (Beautiful riddle/pun there).

The Bible speaks of death being swallowed up in victory, by God. (1 Corinthians 15:54, Isaiah 15:54) It doesn't, at least in those two references, say death is done away with, there, but overcome or overwhelmed, absorbed. The Bible also uses the parallel of a woman who forgets her pain in giving birth, for the joy of the new life that has come into the world.

Truly this present economy of death and sin will be gone, but as exposed for the veil or vapor that they are, compared to the solid reality of Heaven.

Timtofly · Oct 23, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
Isaiah 65:17 may be a form of hyperbole or a way of making a point, much as Jesus said, if one "does not hate his mother and father etc..."

The indications of Scripture, to me at least, are that the reason "the former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind", is because of the overwhelming joy (and other things) that are before us to see and do and be, that by comparison the former things are no longer of the importance that we had (during this temporal life) attributed to them. I.e. the former things will still have their use in Heaven, in contexts such as praising him for his sacrifice, mercy, wisdom and love. See also the fact that the Word of God itself (himself) will still be active. (Beautiful riddle/pun there).

The Bible speaks of death being swallowed up in victory, by God. (1 Corinthians 15:54, Isaiah 15:54) It doesn't, at least in those two references, say death is done away with, there, but overcome or overwhelmed, absorbed. The Bible also uses the parallel of a woman who forgets her pain in giving birth, for the joy of the new life that has come into the world.

Truly this present economy of death and sin will be gone, but as exposed for the veil or vapor that they are, compared to the solid reality of Heaven.

Isaiah 65 is the removal of the knowledge of evil and how it does contrast with good. What is good if there is nothing evil to compare with? Knowing only perfection to a human carnal mind is boring and meaningless.

What is wrong with washing the evil out of one's mind? Do you all never wash your dishes and just keep using them over and over again to remind you of the evils of bacteria?

Mark Quayle · Oct 23, 2021

Timtofly said:
Isaiah 65 is the removal of the knowledge of evil and how it does contrast with good. What is good if there is nothing evil to compare with? Knowing only perfection to a human carnal mind is boring and meaningless.

How is Isaiah 65 "the removal of the knowledge of evil and how it does contrast with good"?

You say, "What is good if there is nothing evil to compare with?" Is that not like saying God is irrelevant, apart from his creation and the evil in it?

You say, "Knowing only perfection to a human carnal mind is boring and meaningless." What has human carnal mind to do with this discussion? We are talking about after this temporal life, when all is changed, no? Nevertheless, to make the claim that perfection is boring and meaningless —is that not like saying that God is boring and meaningless?

Do you think that evil will follow us into Heaven? Do you think I am saying that any form of remembering this life is to take evil with us?

Timtofly said:
What is wrong with washing the evil out of one's mind? Do you all never wash your dishes and just keep using them over and over again to remind you of the evils of bacteria?

Nothing wrong with washing evil out of one's mind. Did I complain against such? Not sure where you get this.

Timtofly · Oct 23, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
How is Isaiah 65 "the removal of the knowledge of evil and how it does contrast with good"?

You say, "What is good if there is nothing evil to compare with?" Is that not like saying God is irrelevant, apart from his creation and the evil in it?

You say, "Knowing only perfection to a human carnal mind is boring and meaningless." What has human carnal mind to do with this discussion? We are talking about after this temporal life, when all is changed, no? Nevertheless, to make the claim that perfection is boring and meaningless —is that not like saying that God is boring and meaningless?

Do you think that evil will follow us into Heaven? Do you think I am saying that any form of remembering this life is to take evil with us?

Nothing wrong with washing evil out of one's mind. Did I complain against such? Not sure where you get this.

I was not stating the point as fact. I was stating it as how this carnal mind interprets the point.

Can you set aside and see life without a carnal mind?

The name of the tree Adam ate from is called what? Why was it called that?

So before Adam ate there was literally no sin in the world. There was no rebellion in the world, accept Satan was allowed to walk around, but he could not touch nor change reality. At that point he talked and talked and talked. He finally found a person who listened, obviously.

The lack of knowing good and evil would not be good. It would be perfect and complete. Why would people miss out on knowing good, at that point?

Isaiah 65 is talking about after sin is removed, and along with it the knowledge of good and evil. No more carnal minds period. This is the 1000 years Satan is bound after the Second Coming. It is not the totally new reality after current heavens and earth cease to exist.

The point is that current reality will go back to the state of things prior to Adam disobeying God, and allowing the knowledge of good and evil, which is the carnal mindset. Washing out this carnal mindset of knowing good and evil is a perfect/complete thing not a bad thing, nor boring.

I was not accusing you of anything. Just commenting on your comments.

Jamdoc · Oct 23, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
So, you think we will witness others giving their accounts to God at the GWTJ? I don't tend to think that will happen. Seems that each person will deal one on one with God while giving an account to Him. But, we can only speculate on that.

Regardless, there clearly isn't going to be "instantaneous mind wipes" before the GWTJ because everyone has to give an account of themselves for what they did (Matt 25:31-46, Romans 14:10-12, Rev 20:11-15, etc.). How can people give an account of themselves if they can't remember what they did, right?

The "mind wipes" will occur when the GWTJ is over, as the following indicates:

Isaiah 65:17 “See, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind.

Obviously, it wouldn't make sense for us to be able to remember bad things that happened for eternity. That would cause us to suffer and we're not going to suffer for eternity in the new heavens and new earth.

Yes, I believe it's the entire point of the GWTJ and giving that account, is for other people to witness it and understand why their loved ones go to hell.

Otherwise, it has no point, it's a vain exercise because God already knows all the information, He doesn't need us to give an account to confirm what He already knows.

as far as Isaiah 65:17 I don't see that as a memory wipe, but rather catharsis.
The purpose of all those painful memories will be known to us then, and the end result is good, so the pain will not seem important in hindsight.

If it was really memory wipes and reprogramming, none of it has a point. God could have made us all robots at the beginning if that was His ultimate plan. God has instead chosen to shape people over time through experience.

To be honest, a lot of times I think of angels as nothing more than Robots.. until I remember that some rebelled. That's the only evidence I have that any of them are actually conscious, sad to say.

How much time does one speculate the GWTJ might involve?

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