THE LORD'S DAY IS NOT SUNDAY!

LoveGodsWord said:

There is no disagreement here and anywhere in this thread that the early Church after the death of John used the term "Lords day" in reference to Sunday or the day of Christs resurrection from the dead so what you have provided here is a moot point.

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that's not the claim I made. you are suggesting that after John's death (c100 AD) the church changed the meaning of the Lord's Day but prior to his death, the Lord's day reference was the Sabbath. Can you provide sources that show this transfer from Sabbath to Sunday as it would help verify your case better?

LoveGodsWord said:

This section in point 2 was written to show Jesus claim of authority to being "Lord of the Sabbath day" because he is the Creator of the Sabbath day and the God of creation

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you are desperately trying to connect this "Lord of the Sabbath day" reference to be synonymous with "The Lord's Day". There is no question that Christ is God and that he had an active role in creation but we don't need Matthew 12:8 to establish this. The purpose of the passage is to show authority over the Sabbath and no more. So this passage doesn't contribute anything to your argument. You are essentially saying Jesus is God, God created the Sabbath therefore the Sabbath is God's day ergo the Lord's Day is the Sabbath. So where does Matthew 12:8 help you in this? All Matthew 12:8 establishes is Christ has authority over the day. This argument has turned into a bit of a rabbit hole for you where you want to keep Matthew 12:8 as your principle verse but yet it actually doesn't contribute anything so you desperately pile things on it but the meaning doesn't change, it's still only about authority.

LoveGodsWord said:

There is no scripture to support the view that "the Lords day" from Revelation 1:10 is Sunday or the first day of the week. The same as there is no early Church literature written in 60 AD as someone else posted that the early Church met together to call "the Lords day" Sunday or the first day of the week.

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your claim is about after John's death the church changed from the Sabbath to Sunday with regards to the reference of "The Lord's Day" I'm asking for sources for that claim.

LoveGodsWord said:

I respectfully disagree. There is no scripture that says "the Lords day" of Revelation 1:10 is Sunday. As posted in the OP we know what the traditions of the Church is in regards to the claims that "the Lords day" of Revelation 1:10 is Sunday yet according to scripture there is no scripture that says "the Lords day" is Sunday or the first day of the week. This is simply an early Church man-made teaching and traditions that is not supported in the scriptures. This is the purpose of the OP to discuss how this man-made tradition is based in the scriptures as there is no scripture to support the claim that "the Lords day" in Revelation 1:10 is Sunday.

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And yet you yourself use historic evidence elsewhere to prove your own points.

Simply dismissing the historic evidence here as "man-made teaching and traditions" when it refutes your position doesn't wash at all I'm afraid.

LoveGodsWord said:

Actually this is exactly what we are trying to do. The OP is asking to show from scripture that "the Lords day" is Sunday. Please read the OP.

There is no historical reference you have provided from BDAG that says that the early Church met together to call Sunday the Lords day in 60 AD. You have not provided any. Your making this up. I asked you to prove this earlier and you simply ignored my request to you. Also, you were provided a Historical reference showing that all the Apostles were very active preaching the gospel to the world at this time and there is not scripture reference of them meeting together to call the Lord's day Sunday or the first day of the week.

As posted earlier John in Revelation 1:10 application to "the Lords day" was referring not to just the Sabbath but Jesus as the creator God of the Sabbath and creator of heaven and earth. You were provided Johns application here and elsewhere in the bible from John 1:1-4; 14; John 8:58; John 17:5; John 5:16-18; Colossians 1:16; 1 Corinthians 8:6; Hebrews 1:1-2; which is the meaning of "the Lords day" that is the Lord's ownership of the Sabbath day and His authority as being the Lord (creator) of the Sabbath. For the Son of man is Lord even of the Sabbath day - Matthew 12:8.

Please read the OP. It is not about commentaries and Historical records. We already know what they are. It is about scripture that proves these claims to show that "the Lords day" is Sunday. Let's be honest here. There is no scripture that proves that this man-made teaching and tradition of the early Church's claim to "the Lords day" is Sunday!

Take Care.

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Well, then, since we don't use those rule in our faith, you just go do what you feel is right. And so will we.

Here are 3 more commentaries on Rev 1:10 to add to the 23 I posted earlier on this thread.

Revelation - Ben Witherington Professor of New Testament Interpretation at Asbury Theological Seminary

He was “in the Spirit” on the Lord’s day. This use of the Spirit language is more like the references to the Spirit falling on prophetic figures (see Ezek. 3.12, 14) than like the NT discussions about being filled with the Spirit.35 Probably we have the first clear reference to Sunday as the Christian day of worship, with “Lord’s day” becoming something of a technical term (cf. Did. 14.1; Ignatius Mag. 9.1). We have confirmation of worship on Sunday in this vicinity from the early second century when Pliny writes to Trajan about Christians meeting in early morning on the first day of the week to sing and worship (see Epistle 10.96.8 ff.). This practice must be seen in the context of Emperor worship, which included a special day set aside in Asia once a month called “emperor’s day” (Sebaste Augustus Day). Just as certain rulers claimed particular days as their own, so too did the Lord Christ.

Rev. 1.10 raises the age-old debate about the relationship between the Jewish sabbath and the Lord’s day. It seems that the earliest Jewish Christians continued to go to the synagogue, but they also held their own meetings in homes as well. For them it did not seem to be an either/or proposition. We do not find in the NT any arguments that Sunday should be seen as the Christians’ sabbath. In fact, by the time we get to Ignatius (see Magnes. 9.1), a clear contrast is set between the Jewish sabbath and the Lord’s day. The earliest canonical evidence that something distinctively Christian was going on, and on Sunday, the first day of the week, is in 1 Cor. 16.1–2, which literally speaks of “the first of the sabbath,” meaning the first day of the week. On that day Paul enjoins his converts to set aside funds for the collection. In light of his other comments in 2 Cor. 8–9, one may assume that Paul means that this money should be set aside for the day when the congregation gathers to meet, when it could be collected. Rev. 1.10 provides further evidence that there was a special day of worship for Christians, now called the Lord’s day, because Jesus rose from the dead on Sunday morning. It is no accident that John says he is in the Spirit on that day, a day for worship and inspiration, and he was in a doxological mode when he received his visions.

Texts like Rom. 14.5–6 make evident that Paul recognized that some worshiped on a particular day, while others saw every day as the Lord’s day and so appropriate for worship. His word is appropriate for today as well: “Let each be persuaded in their own mind.” Worship is mandated, but a particular day is not, in the NT. Heb. 4.9 suggests that, in a sense, we can enjoy Jesus’ sabbatical rest continually, on any and every day.


THE BOOK OF REVELATION - G. K. Beale, Professor of New Testament and Biblical Theology at Reformed Theological Seminary in Dallas

The vision came to him on “the Lord’s day,” perhaps when he was in an attitude of worship on “Sunday” (cf. Barnabas 15:9).

There is more recent debate about whether the phrase refers to the Christian Sunday or to Easter Sunday. The former is certainly preferable because of the unambiguous usage beginning in the second century and the absence of clear allusions to the latter from the same time. Some have seen in Rev. 1:1–8 a reflection of an early Christian liturgical dialogue, which would enhance this identification of “the Lord’s day” as Sunday. The idea that Rev. 1:10 implies a Christian observance of the Sabbath is the least likely alternative.


Revelation - Craig S. Keener, professor of New Testament at Asbury Theological Seminary

Most likely the “Lord’s Day” refers to the first day of the week, Sunday. The phrase also appears in Did. 14.1 for the day on which Christians gathered to break bread, and Roman officials also recognized that Christians gathered on a fixed day (Pliny, Ep. 10.96). Christians seem to have assembled together on Sunday from an early period (Acts 20:7; 1 Cor. 16:2), probably to commemorate Jesus’ resurrection (John 20:19, 26). Because the first Christians were Jewish, they may have also avoided assembling on Friday evening or Saturday morning to avoid conflict with their synagogue services.

LoveGodsWord said:

Sorry dear friend but I respectfully disagree with you but allow me to explain why. Did you read the challenge of the OP? Here let me post it here for you in case you did not read it or understand the purpose of this OP.

CHALLENGE FOR THOSE WHO CLAIM SUNDAY IS THE LORD'S DAY

Your challenge here is that if you disagree with the scriptures provided above that prove that "the Lords day" from Revelation 1:10 is the Sabbath day, please provide a single scripture from God's Word showing that "the Lords day" in Revelation 1:10 is referring to Sunday or the first day of the week. Scripture only please as we know what the man-made teachings and traditions of men are in regards to "the Lords day" from sources outside of the bible. This OP is to examine if these outside sources outside of the bible are biblical or not.

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So you have posted nothing here that disagrees with what has been shared with you from the scriptures here provide in this OP and as posted already provided nothing from scripture that shows that Sunday is "the Lords day" from Revelation 1:10. Therefore at best the claim of the early Church that Sunday is "the Lords day" is simply a man-made teaching and tradition that is not supported by scripture.

It is absolutely true. Your claim that you posted earlier was that the early Church met in 60 AD to call the firs day of the week "the Lords day". I asked you to prove this claim and you have not provided any proof of this. I even posted other published historical references showing that the Apostles were still alive and actively preaching the gospel at this time and pointed out that there is no scripture or reference meeting together at this time to call Sunday the Lords day. So what are you provided for this claim? - Nothing. If you disagree please provided the reference. Although all of this is a distraction and off topic to the OP which is asking for scripture to prove that Sunday or the first day of the week is the Lords day. No one has provided any scripture to prove that Sunday is the Lords day so at best all you have to prove this man-made teaching and tradition is early Church literature that is outside of the scriptures that are unsupported by Gods' Word.

As posted earlier John in Revelation 1:10 application to "the Lords day" was referring not to just the Sabbath but Jesus as the creator God of the Sabbath and creator of heaven and earth. You were provided Johns application here and elsewhere in the bible from John 1:1-4; 14; John 8:58; John 17:5; John 5:16-18; and other scriptures agreeing with John in Colossians 1:16; 1 Corinthians 8:6; Hebrews 1:1-2; which is the meaning of "the Lords day" that is the Lord's ownership of the Sabbath day and His authority as being the Lord (creator) of the Sabbath. For the Son of man is Lord even of the Sabbath day - Matthew 12:8.

Take Care

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It's not disagreeing with Scripture, that's where your problem is. As Jesus Himself said, the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. Jesus is Lord even of the Sabbath, Jesus is in charge of the Sabbath. He is God in human form, and He created the Sabbath day. As the One who wrote the law, Jesus certainly has oversight over how the law is to be enforced. The Pharisees had lifted their own rules to the level of God’s, placing onerous burdens on people, and they ended up rebuking the Lawgiver Himself.

Jesus is also the Lord of the Sabbath in that the Sabbath pointed to the rest Jesus provides. Jesus became our rest when He did all the work necessary for our salvation (Hebrews 4). He fulfilled the Law and the Prophets (Matthew 5:17). “Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes” (Romans 10:4). We rest, spiritually, in Him; He has secured our eternal blessing.

As believers, set free in Christ, we are not judged by whether or not we keep the Sabbath day (Colossians 2:16). Instead, we follow the Lord of the Sabbath, Jesus Christ. We find our rest in Him, and seven days a week are filled with worship of Him.