THE LORD'S DAY IS NOT SUNDAY!

[LoveGodsWord]

We are attempting to determine what John meant by the term ἡ κυριακὴ ἡμέρα "The Lord's Day" in Rev 1:10. None of the verses you cite mention this term. It appears nowhere else in scripture.

Actually this is exactly what we are trying to do. The OP is asking to show from scripture that "the Lords day" is Sunday. Please read the OP.

At the time John wrote Revelation the term was in widespread use in Christian communities to refer to Sunday, the day on which they worshipped. The historical evidence proves this. Using the established principles of hermeneutics, which is to also consider the historical evidence, the conclusion we must draw is that John is most likely referring to Sunday. The "Lord's day" is a term he knew his audience would instantly understand as Sunday (John was writing to the early churches).

There is no historical reference you have provided from BDAG that says that the early Church met together to call Sunday the Lords day in 60 AD. You have not provided any. Your making this up. I asked you to prove this earlier and you simply ignored my request to you. Also, you were provided a Historical reference showing that all the Apostles were very active preaching the gospel to the world at this time and there is not scripture reference of them meeting together to call the Lord's day Sunday or the first day of the week.

If John was referring to the sabbath, he would have used the word "sabbath". That is the word he always uses for the sabbath. (See John 5:9, John 5:10, John 5:16, John 5:18, John 7:22, John 7:23, John 9:14, John 9:16, John 19:31). The fact he specfically uses a different term strongly indicates he NOT referring to the sabbath.

As posted earlier John in Revelation 1:10 application to "the Lords day" was referring not to just the Sabbath but Jesus as the creator God of the Sabbath and creator of heaven and earth. You were provided Johns application here and elsewhere in the bible from John 1:1-4; 14; John 8:58; John 17:5; John 5:16-18; Colossians 1:16; 1 Corinthians 8:6; Hebrews 1:1-2; which is the meaning of "the Lords day" that is the Lord's ownership of the Sabbath day and His authority as being the Lord (creator) of the Sabbath. For the Son of man is Lord even of the Sabbath day - Matthew 12:8.

There is not a single commentary of Rev 1:10 that claims John is referring to the sabbath (I quoted 23 earlier in this thread). The single exception is a guy from the sda university who would undoubtedly lose his job if he said anything different.

Please read the OP. It is not about commentaries and Historical records. We already know what they are. It is about scripture that proves these claims to show that "the Lords day" is Sunday. Let's be honest here. There is no scripture that proves that this man-made teaching and tradition of the early Church's claim to "the Lords day" is Sunday!

Take Care.

 

[timothyu]

Not sure why they would worship Jesus, after he proved that he is God? Headscratcher, that. Jesus claimed to be God, and proved it. SMH

Yet nothing I said was untrue.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

sure... I'll dissect post #588

Great let's discuss your claims here and see how they match up. I may have to break this into a few smaller posts for convenience.

LoveGodsWord wrote:[1]. Gods' Word has been provided from Revelation 1:10 showing that the Greek words τῇ κυριακῇ ἡμέρᾳ translated into English as "the Lords day" that John is attributing to Jesus means the day that is belonging to the Lord or the Lords ownership of the day.

Your response here...

scripture listed: Revelation 1:10
this of course is a summary of the verse in question and it is you're making an agreeable point. John of course uses the term "Lord's Day" as a colloquialism not as an explicit statement or claim of the day (but still implicit). One way we know it's a colloquialism is the word used in the text translated as "Lord's" (kuriakos) is a Greek word that emerges out of the early church. There are 2 examples of is used in the NT, this passage and a reference to the Lord's supper in 1 Cor 11:20 and it does not appear in the septuagint.

HELPS Word-studies defines it as follows:
2960 kyriakós (an adjective, derived from 2962 /kýrios, "lord") – properly, pertaining (belonging) to the Lord (kyrios). 2960 (kyriakós) is used of the Lord's Supper (i.e. "communion," the Lord's table) and "the Lord's day" (Sunday) as the appointed day for rest and worship. See 1 Cor 11:20; Rev 1:10.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon defines it this way (definition 2 is used):
2. relating to the Lord, ἡ κυριακῇ ἡμέρα, the day devoted to the Lord, sacred to the memory of Christ's resurrection, Revelation 1:10 (cf. 'κυριακῇ κυρίου, Teaching 14, 1 [ET] (where see Harnack); cf. B. D., under the word ; Lightfoot Ignatius ad Magn. [ET], p. 129; Müller on the Epistle of Barnabas 15, 9 [ET]); γραφαί κυριακαι the writings concerning the Lord, i. e. the Gospels, Clement of Alexandria, others (Cf. Sophocles' Lexicon, under the word.)

both agree the day in question is Sunday or pertaining to the "memory of Christ's resurrection"

You have provided an application of the Lords day here to Sunday from early Church literature after the time that John wrote Revelation 1:10. There is no disagreement here and anywhere in this thread that the early Church after the death of John used the term "Lords day" in reference to Sunday or the day of Christs resurrection from the dead so what you have provided here is a moot point. What the OP is putting out is a challenge to show and prove from scripture that this early man-made teaching and tradition of using Revelation 1:10 that states that John was in the Spirit of "the Lords day" is actually a reference to Sunday or the first day of the week. All you have provided above from the Lexicon to prove this connection is early Church literature after the death of John who wrote Revelation 1:10 and not scripture. In order to make the connection with the Greek word meaning of τῇ κυριακῇ ἡμέρᾳ translated as "the Lords day" or pertaining to the Lord or the Lords ownership of the day you need to show from scripture that this is what "the Lords day" means. You have not done that here. The Lexicon word meaning of "the Lords day means a day belonging to the Lord which is the correct definition of the Greek word meaning of τῇ κυριακῇ ἡμέρᾳ translated as "the Lords day" while trying to provide early Christian literature or in brackets (Sunday) where there is no Greek use of Sunday or the first day of the week in the original Greek to Revelation 1:10 or any scripture that supports this traditional view. Therefore as posted earlier and shown from scripture and the Greek already, it is not biblical to claim that "the Lords day" is Sunday or the first day of the week because there is no scripture that supports this interpretation of Revelation 1:10. Once again in support of this OP here, you have no scripture that proves "the Lords day" is Sunday.

More to come...

 

[LoveGodsWord]

LoveGodsWord said: ↑ [2]. God's Word has been provided from *Matthew 12:8; Mark 2:28 and Luke 6:5 showing that the day Jesus claims authority over as Lord is the Sabbath day and that Jesus has this authority as Lord of the Sabbath because he is the creator God of heaven and earth and the Sabbath day that he rested on after His finished work of creation where he blessed and made holy the Sabbath day as a memorial of creation *John 1:1-4; ; Colossians 1:16; Genesis 2:1-3

Your response here...

Scripture listed (part a): Matthew 12:8 Mark 2:28 Luke 6:5 The Matthew, Mark and Luke references are the same event articulated over the gospels. The main point is derived from this line that each agrees with "The Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath". This establishes not ownership but authority of the Sabbath which is the point Christ is making. As it pertains to Christ being the author of the Sabbath this is a bit misleading and tends to mash Christ in a conflated version of the trinity. John 1:3 tells us "Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made" and Col 1:16 “For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him". This presents a different perspective than what you are setting as the role of Christ in creation. Scripture/translations tend to favour the language "through him". This certainly doesn't take away Christ's intrinsic authority/ownership but it's a different focus then what you're taking. I tend to favour the biblical presentation of Christ. scripture listed (part b): John 1:1-4; 14; Colossians 1:16 Genesis 2:1-3 You haven't made it clear why you are using the John and Colossians verses as it is not inline with your point. As previous mentioned both John and Colossians shows us the language "through him all things were made" and John 1:14 tells us the word became flesh. These are fairly agreeable verses and well established doctrinally but you're not really being specific how it builds you point. Are you simply trying to say Christ is God? That's all well and good but no one is disagreeing with that so the verses seems misplaced are at least needs to be better unpacked. Certainly Genesis 2:1-3 is inline with your point but how does John 1:1-4 and Colossians 1:16 contribute to this? Christ was there, and all things were through him, including rest and blessings. This is just too undeveloped of a point and I don't see how this builds your cause.

Actually it seems you did not understand why I provided the scriptures in the post that you are quoting from in this section. This section in point 2 was written to show Jesus claim of authority to being "Lord of the Sabbath day" because he is the Creator of the Sabbath day and the God of creation. So everything you have posted here is a moot point as it is not something that I am arguing about. A summary of the three points you are quoting from is that Point 1 establishes Greek word meaning of τῇ κυριακῇ ἡμέρᾳ translated as "the Lords day" or pertaining to the Lord or the Lords ownership of the day from Revelation 1:10; Point 2 which you have misunderstood here establishes the authority of Jesus to claim he is Lord of the Sabbath day because he is the creator of it *Matthew 12:8; Mark 2:28; Luke 6:5; John 1:1-4; 14; Colossians 1:16; Genesis 2:1-3 and Point 3 shows the claims of Jesus and God's ownership of the Sabbath day * Isaiah 58:13; Exodus 31:12-18; Leviticus 19:30; Ezekiel 20:12; Deuteronomy 5:15; Leviticus 23:3; Exodus 31:15; Exodus 20:10. The scriptures provided in all three points above, collectively as a whole demonstrate that the Sabbath as shown through scripture is "the Lord's day" as described in Revelation 1:10 as "the Lords day" showing that Jesus claims authority over the Sabbath as he is the creator of it and that God and Jesus claim ownership of the Sabbath as their Holy day throughout the scriptures. Where as there is no scripture that linked "the Lords day" to Sunday or the first day of the week. So you have posted nothing here that disagrees with what has bee shared with you from the scriptures here and as posted already there is nothing from scripture that shows that Sunday is "the Lords day".

More to come...

 

[LoveGodsWord]

LoveGodsWord said: ↑[3] God's Word has been provided showing that the day that Jesus as the God of creation and God claims both authority and ownership over is the Sabbath day where God demonstrates ownership calling the Sabbath "My Holy day"; My Sabbaths; The Sabbath of the Lord thy God; The Sabbath of rest holy unto the Lord; the Holy day of the Lord which are all scripture references to the Sabbath day in * Isaiah 58:13; Exodus 31:12-18; Leviticus 19:30; Ezekiel 20:12; Deuteronomy 5:15; Leviticus 23:3; Exodus 31:15; Exodus 20:10 demonstrating God's claim to ownership over the Sabbath day in light of Johns claim of "the Lords day or the Lords ownership of the day "The Lords day". The scriptures provided above demonstrate both the authority of Jesus as Lord of the Sabbath and Jesus and God's claim to ownership of the Sabbath day! While in return there is not a single scripture that links τῇ κυριακῇ ἡμέρᾳ "the Lords day" to Sunday or the first day of the week.

Your response here...

scripture listed: Isaiah 58:13 - "My holy day" Exodus 31:12-18 - "My Sabbaths"
Leviticus 19:30 - "My Sabbaths" Ezekiel 20:12 - "My Sabbaths"
Deuteronomy 5:15 - "God commanded you to [a]celebrate the Sabbath day"
Leviticus 23:3 (the 4th commandment) Exodus 31:15 - (the 4th commandment)I've included the most relevant quote to reference them quicker. All these verses show the importance of the sabbath and establisher through various language that the Sabbath is God's such as "My holy Day" or "My Sabbaths" etc... They do indeed build a case for the Sabbath belonging to God and one that is very agreeable. So I'll infer that your point here is since the Sabbath is well established as belonging to God biblical references of a day uniquely identified with God broadly or specifically should be assumed it is the Sabbath if not otherwise mentioned. And this is the point you've established through the assumption that because the OT views the Sabbath "this" way, Rev 1:10 must be the Sabbath. That's a reasonable enough point but it is a bias. It's a bias because it focuses is only a half answer of "why the Lord's day is the Sabbath" but you failed to answer the other half of "Why it's not Sunday".

Thanks. I have picked up a typo Deuteronomy 5:15 should be Deuteronomy 5:14 so the scriptures actually show God's ownership of the Sabbath day to...

Isaiah 58:13 - "My holy day"
Exodus 31:12-18 - "My Sabbaths"
Leviticus 19:30 - "My Sabbaths"
Ezekiel 20:12 - "My Sabbaths"
Deuteronomy 5:14 But the seventh day is THE SABBATH OF THE LORD YOUR GOD...
Leviticus 23:3 ... THE SABBATH OF THE LORD...
Exodus 31:15 ... THE SABBATH OF REST HOLY TO THE LORD
Exodus 20:10 But the seventh day is THE SABBATH OF THE LORD your God.

I did not fail at anything here in regards to Sunday. That is what the OP is about and the topic of discussion. The argument of the OP is that there is no scripture that states that "the Lords day" from Revelation 1:10 supports Sunday or the first day of the week as being the Lords day. That is the argument put forward in this OP. As posted earlier we know what the man-made teachings and traditions are in regards to the early Church's claims that Sunday is the Lord's day the OP's challenge is to prove this claim from scripture. - there is none.

More to come...

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Scripturally Sunday is an established day of gathering demonstrated in Acts 20:7; 1 Cor. 16:2. We also see this unique word only being used in the NT kuriakos despite what appears to be similar language elsewhere this is a new word not used before (including the Septuagint). In the NT it's used twice in Revelation 1:10 (the text in question) and I Corinthians 11:20 which is referring to the Lord's Supper. The references are few for Sunday gathering as well as this unique word but they are enough and a line can connect it all with 2 verses.

Acts of the Apostles 2:46-47 says [46], And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, [47], Praising God, and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved. So according to the scriptures the early Church met everyday of the week and Sunday or the first day of the week in Jewish day reckoning simply being one of those days. There is not one scripture in the new testament that says anywhere that the first day of the week (Sunday) is "the Lords day" neither is there any scripture of Jesus claiming ownership over Sunday or the first day of the week in place of His holy Sabbath day. Neither is there any scripture that says Sunday is now a commandment or a holy day of rest. So what have you posted here to support the man-made teaching and tradition of the early Church that "the Lords day" is Sunday? - Nothing. All you have posted here is in agreement with Acts of the Apostles 2:46-47 and that is the early Church met every day of the week. This of course does not support your teaching that Sunday is "the Lords day" now does it.

I Corinthians 11:20 uses the term kuriakos (1 of the only 2 references in the bible) which is a unique word for what seems to involve worship towards Christ but literally that which belongs to Christ. This word is used to reference the Lord's Supper.

Ok but the Greek meaning of kuriakos by itself simply means "the Lord's" in this context it is applied to "the Lord's supper", that is the Lord's ownership of the supper. So what is your point here" You did not make one.

So when do we have the Lord's supper? Scripture shows us in Acts 20:7 that there was a tradition established of "breaking bread" upon the first day of the week. So we see the Lord's Supper being valued on the first day of the week. Would this not make sense to call the day also "The Lord's Day"? This is in line with the historical record of the early Christians gathering on Sunday, the oldest being the Didache which has instruction saying "every Lord's day gather yourselves together, and break bread, and give thanksgiving". This is extra-biblical, I know, but what is important is the same language is used of "breaking bread" for the Lord's Supper which biblically speaking agrees with Sunday. The Lord's supper is a memorial to what? His role in creation? His birth? His rest? Specifically not these, it is a celebration of his memorial of his death and resurrection. 1 Corinthians 11:20 and surrounding context clearly shows a tradition of gathering and participating in the Lord's supper when they gather. A meal celebrating the death and resurrection of Christ is called the "Lord's Supper" and seems appropriate to have it on a day that also celebrates his death and resurrection and called the "Lord's Day" being the day of the week Christ resurrected. The Sabbath does not capture this value and both these NT examples of this unique greek word "kuriakos" are exclusively about Christ. The first is undeniably about a repeated memorial event of his death and resurrection that is supported biblically as happening every time believers met. NT establishes believers met on the first day of the week and this is supported by the historical record so it would be reasonable that his expression used in Rev 1:10 "Lord's Day" also is of a memorial to Christ's death and resurrection as it is the day you partake of the Lord's Supper.

This is a little misleading. According to the scriptures already posted in Acts of the Apostles 2:46-47 the early Church was breaking bread every day of the week (same Greek words used). There is no scriptural commandment that states anywhere that we are to break bread only on Sunday so your point here is a moot one. So what scripture do you have to show that the man-made teaching and tradition that claims "the Lords day" is Sunday? - You have none do you.

.....................

Final Summary: A summary of the three points you are quoting from is that

Point 1 establishes Greek word meaning of τῇ κυριακῇ ἡμέρᾳ translated as "the Lords day" or pertaining to the Lord or the Lords ownership of the day from Revelation 1:10;

Point 2 which you have misunderstood here establishes the authority of Jesus to claim he is Lord of the Sabbath day because he is the creator of it *Matthew 12:8; Mark 2:28; Luke 6:5; John 1:1-4; 14; Colossians 1:16; Genesis 2:1-3 and

Point 3 shows the claims of Jesus and God's ownership of the Sabbath day * Isaiah 58:13; Exodus 31:12-18; Leviticus 19:30; Ezekiel 20:12; Deuteronomy 5:15; Leviticus 23:3; Exodus 31:15; Exodus 20:10.

All three points shared from the scriptures above collectively as a whole demonstrate that the Sabbath as shown through scripture is "the Lord's day" as described in Revelation 1:10 as they demonstrate the authority of Jesus in claiming to be the Lord of the Sabbath day and His ownership of the day in scripture. Where as there is no scripture that linked "the Lords day" to Sunday or the first day of the week. So you have posted nothing here that disagrees with what has been shared with you from the scriptures here and posted nothing from scripture that shows that Sunday is "the Lords day"

I am enjoying the friendly discussion with you Damian.

Take Care.

 

[swordsman1]

All your providing here once again is a reference from Justin Martyr which is not scripture but early Christian literature.

No I am not. I am showing you where BDAG says "the Lord's day" in Rev 1:10 is Sunday, in response to your claim that there is no lexicon that says such a thing.

 

[swordsman1]

There is no scripture that says this, if it was widespread and common knowledge why is there no scripture stating this?

Scripture is not intended to be an extensive history of the early church. We have the historic records themselves for that.

 

[FreeinChrist]

ADVISOR HAT

This thread is closed for review. There is a lot of flaming. Also, there is a whole forum just for this topic called Sabbath & The Law.​