The first day of the week -- vs -- "the Lord's day" or the new "Sabbath" in the NEW Testament

[BobRyan]

Most of us here would agree that the resurrection was on week-day-1 -- (what we call Sunday today).

However when it comes to the New Testament and the weekly day of worship found there --

1. Not ONE text in the NT says "the Sabbath is now kept on the first day of the week"
2. Not ONE text in the NT says "we now keep the first day of the week as the Lord's Day"
3. Not ONE text in the NT says "we meet for worship every week day 1"
4. Not ONE text in the NT says "We meet on week day 1 in honor of the resurrection on week day 1"
5. Not ONE text in the NT says "The Lord's day is on week day 1"
6. Not ONE text in the NT says "Ignore the Commandments of God"
7. Not ONE text in the NT says "ignore scripture, ignore what the Holy Spirit says"

NOTE: Those points are irrefutable - and you can see how they are avoided in the opposing posts ....

Mark 7:7-13 condemns Jewish tradition that tries to run over one of the Commandments of God

What we DO Find in the NT is
1. "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19
2. "the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12
3. "this IS the Love of God that we KEEP His Commandments" 1 John 5:3
Where "The first commandment WITH a promise is - Honor your father and mother(Ex 20:12) " Eph 6:2

We also find this in the NT
1. "the Gospel was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:8
2. there is only ONE Gospel Gal 1:6-9
3. The "Gospel was preached to us just as it was to them also" Heb 4:2
4. the NEW Covenant of Jer 31:31-34 quoted verbatim in Heb 8:6-12
5. Moses and Elijah stand in glory with Christ in Matt 17 - even before the cross.

=========== by contrast EVERY reference to the weekly Sabbath in the NT refers to the seventh day of the week - Saturday

Acts 18:4 4 And he (the Apostle Paul) reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded both Jews and Greeks."

Acts 13:42 So when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath.

Acts 13:44 On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God. 45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy; and contradicting and blaspheming, they opposed the things spoken by Paul.

Which is inline with Is 66:23 where we find that for all eternity after the cross in the New Earth of Rev 21 - "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before Me to worship" (far from it being deleted 2000 years ago)

======================================

If this is the case - then keeping week-day-1 instead of the seventh day -- as either "the new Sabbath" or as your own personal "Lord's day" is a preference or a later tradition rather than something that comes to us from the actual New Testament.

No wonder - almost every Christian denomination on Earth affirms the continued *"unit of TEN" for Christians today - the list includes;

• The Baptist Confession of Faith section 19
• The Westminster Confession of Faith section 19
• Voddie Baucham
• C.H. Spurgeon
• D.L. Moody
• Dies Domini by Pope John Paul II
• D. James Kennedy
• R.C. Sproul
• (others...)

* - unit of TEN in verbatim unchanged form or else "edited" by man's tradition

Those groups above are at some level of agreement with Michael Youssef of Leading The Way ministries as we see here --
The Ten Commandments (Part 5)

 

[BobRyan]

By comparison - almost everyone you meet will argue for Sunday as the weekly day of worship based on one of those 5 statements above where they do not realize that in the actual NT - "not one" text says such a thing.

 

[Bob S]

By the same token there is not one text in the new covenant that says we are to worship on Saturday. There are many texts that tell us that we are not under the laws of the old covenant. Jesus lived under the dictates of the old covenant and so did almost all of His followers. In Jn 15:9-14 Jesus even tell us He kept the commands of the Father and asks us to keep His command to love others like He loves us. If the Sabbath requirement is so important as Ellen White proclaimed (see below) that if we don't observe it we will go to hell then why isn't it spelled out in the new covenant?

But if we turn aside from the fourth commandment, so positively given by God, to adopt the inventions of Satan, voiced and acted by men under his control, we cannot be saved. We cannot with safety receive his traditions and subtleties as truth. {RH, July 6, 1897 par. 4}

 

[trophy33]

Acts 18:4 4 And he (the Apostle Paul) reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded both Jews and Greeks."

Acts 13:42 So when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath.

Acts 13:44 On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God. 45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy; and contradicting and blaspheming, they opposed the things spoken by Paul.

These verses do not support any of your Seventh Day Adventist positions.

 

[trophy33]

Ellen White proclaimed (see below)...:

But if we turn aside from the fourth commandment, so positively given by God, to adopt the inventions of Satan, voiced and acted by men under his control, we cannot be saved. We cannot with safety receive his traditions and subtleties as truth. {RH, July 6, 1897 par. 4}

The real reason the Seventh Day Adventists are so fixed on this topic, creating more and more and more threads about the same thing, with the same weak/wrong arguments over and over again, is they simply believe its a salvation issue (but cannot say that clearly, here).

 

[Bob S]

You are right on the money, but that doesn't stop me from quoting their leader who in their eyes her writings are infallible.

The statement which you quote from "Testimony," No. 31, that "in these letters which I wrote, in the Testimonies I bear, I am presenting to you that which the Lord has presented to me. I do not write one article in the paper, expressing merely my own ideas. They are what God has opened before me in vision -- the precious rays of light shining from the throne," is correct. It is true concerning the articles in our papers and in the many volumes of my books. I have been instructed in accordance with the Word in the precepts of the law of God. I have been instructed in selecting from the lessons of Christ. Are not the positions taken in my writings in harmony with the teachings of Jesus Christ? If not, point it out to me. {RH, September 6, 1906 par. 1}

Yet now when I send you a testimony of warning and reproof, many of you declare it to be merely the opinion of Sister White. You have thereby insulted the Spirit of God. You know how the Lord has manifested Himself through the spirit of prophecy. Past, present, and future have passed before me. I have been shown faces that I had never seen, and years afterward I knew them when I saw them. I have been aroused from my sleep with a vivid sense of subjects previously presented to my mind; and I have written, at midnight, letters that have gone across the continent and, arriving at a crisis, have saved great disaster to the cause of God. This has been my work for many years. A power has impelled me to reprove and rebuke wrongs that I had not thought of. Is this work of the last thirty-six years from above or from beneath? {5T 64.3}


When I went to Colorado I was so burdened for you that, in my weakness, I wrote many pages to be read at your camp meeting. Weak and trembling, I arose at three o'clock in the morning to write to you. God was speaking through clay. You might say that this communication was only a letter. Yes, it was a letter, but prompted by the Spirit of God, to bring before your minds things that had been shown me. In these letters which I write, in the testimonies I bear, I am presenting to you that which the Lord has presented to me. I do not write one article in the paper expressing merely my own ideas. They are what God has opened before me in vision--the precious rays of light shining from the throne. {5T 67.2}

*Underlining mine

 

[chevyontheriver]

The real reason the Seventh Day Adventists are so fixed on this topic, creating more and more and more threads about the same thing, with the same weak/wrong arguments over and over again, is they simply believe its a salvation issue (but cannot say that clearly, here).

Not just a salvation issue, but they believe they will be persecuted and forced to worship on Sunday. The evil Catholics, in league with other Christians, will have the governments of the world mandate Sunday worship. Ellen Gould White said so.

If any day might be mandated it would be Friday.

 

[Gary K]

You are right on the money, but that doesn't stop me from quoting their leader who in their eyes her writings are infallible.

The statement which you quote from "Testimony," No. 31, that "in these letters which I wrote, in the Testimonies I bear, I am presenting to you that which the Lord has presented to me. I do not write one article in the paper, expressing merely my own ideas. They are what God has opened before me in vision -- the precious rays of light shining from the throne," is correct. It is true concerning the articles in our papers and in the many volumes of my books. I have been instructed in accordance with the Word in the precepts of the law of God. I have been instructed in selecting from the lessons of Christ. Are not the positions taken in my writings in harmony with the teachings of Jesus Christ? If not, point it out to me. {RH, September 6, 1906 par. 1}

Yet now when I send you a testimony of warning and reproof, many of you declare it to be merely the opinion of Sister White. You have thereby insulted the Spirit of God. You know how the Lord has manifested Himself through the spirit of prophecy. Past, present, and future have passed before me. I have been shown faces that I had never seen, and years afterward I knew them when I saw them. I have been aroused from my sleep with a vivid sense of subjects previously presented to my mind; and I have written, at midnight, letters that have gone across the continent and, arriving at a crisis, have saved great disaster to the cause of God. This has been my work for many years. A power has impelled me to reprove and rebuke wrongs that I had not thought of. Is this work of the last thirty-six years from above or from beneath? {5T 64.3}


When I went to Colorado I was so burdened for you that, in my weakness, I wrote many pages to be read at your camp meeting. Weak and trembling, I arose at three o'clock in the morning to write to you. God was speaking through clay. You might say that this communication was only a letter. Yes, it was a letter, but prompted by the Spirit of God, to bring before your minds things that had been shown me. In these letters which I write, in the testimonies I bear, I am presenting to you that which the Lord has presented to me. I do not write one article in the paper expressing merely my own ideas. They are what God has opened before me in vision--the precious rays of light shining from the throne. {5T 67.2}

*Underlining mine

Isn't this considered goading?

 

[trophy33]

Not just a salvation issue, but they believe they will be persecuted and forced to worship on Sunday. The evil Catholics, in league with other Christians, will have the governments of the world mandate Sunday worship. Ellen Gould White said so.

If any day might be mandated it would be Friday.

Yeah, I remember one of their members told me fearfully that Germany (our neighboring country) has some Sunday laws. I was saying something like "so what?", but he presented it like it was almost the end of the world. It was about 10 years ago.

 

[BobRyan]

Most of us here would agree that the resurrection was on week-day-1 -- (what we call Sunday today).

However when it comes to the New Testament and the weekly day of worship found there --

1. Not ONE text in the NT says "the Sabbath is now kept on the first day of the week"
2. Not ONE text in the NT says "we now keep the first day of the week as the Lord's Day"
3. Not ONE text in the NT says "we meet for worship every week day 1"
4. Not ONE text in the NT says "We meet on week day 1 in honor of the resurrection on week day 1"
5. Not ONE text in the NT says "The Lord's day is on week day 1"

=========== by contrast EVERY reference to the weekly Sabbath in the NT refers to the seventh day of the week - Saturday

Acts 18:4 4 And he (the Apostle Paul) reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded both Jews and Greeks."

Acts 13:42 So when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath.

Acts 13:44 On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God. 45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy; and contradicting and blaspheming, they opposed the things spoken by Paul.

======================================

If this is the case - then keeping week-day-1 instead of the seventh day -- as either "the new Sabbath" or as your own personal "Lord's day" is a preference or a later tradition rather than something that comes to us from the actual New Testament.

These verses do not support any of your Seventh Day Adventist positions.

Until you read them and address the details ...

Some people still do that sort of thing - so then we can have a discussion in those cases.

The post you are responding to gave you a huge amount of room to "post an actual fact" - to show whatever point you wish to make. Why not take that path?

 

[BobRyan]

You are right on the money, but that doesn't stop me from quoting their leader who in their eyes her writings are infallible.

Hint: Try responding to the actual OP

Here it is ... again

Most of us here would agree that the resurrection was on week-day-1 -- (what we call Sunday today).

However when it comes to the New Testament and the weekly day of worship found there --

1. Not ONE text in the NT says "the Sabbath is now kept on the first day of the week"
2. Not ONE text in the NT says "we now keep the first day of the week as the Lord's Day"
3. Not ONE text in the NT says "we meet for worship every week day 1"
4. Not ONE text in the NT says "We meet on week day 1 in honor of the resurrection on week day 1"
5. Not ONE text in the NT says "The Lord's day is on week day 1"

=========== by contrast EVERY reference to the weekly Sabbath in the NT refers to the seventh day of the week - Saturday

Acts 18:4 4 And he (the Apostle Paul) reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded both Jews and Greeks."

Acts 13:42 So when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath.

Acts 13:44 On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God. 45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy; and contradicting and blaspheming, they opposed the things spoken by Paul.

======================================

If this is the case - then keeping week-day-1 instead of the seventh day -- as either "the new Sabbath" or as your own personal "Lord's day" is a preference or a later tradition rather than something that comes to us from the actual New Testament.

 

[BobRyan]

Most of us here would agree that the resurrection was on week-day-1 -- (what we call Sunday today).

However when it comes to the New Testament and the weekly day of worship found there --

1. Not ONE text in the NT says "the Sabbath is now kept on the first day of the week"
2. Not ONE text in the NT says "we now keep the first day of the week as the Lord's Day"
3. Not ONE text in the NT says "we meet for worship every week day 1"
4. Not ONE text in the NT says "We meet on week day 1 in honor of the resurrection on week day 1"
5. Not ONE text in the NT says "The Lord's day is on week day 1"

=========== by contrast EVERY reference to the weekly Sabbath in the NT refers to the seventh day of the week - Saturday

Acts 18:4 4 And he (the Apostle Paul) reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded both Jews and Greeks."

Acts 13:42 So when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath.

Acts 13:44 On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God. 45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy; and contradicting and blaspheming, they opposed the things spoken by Paul.

======================================

If this is the case - then keeping week-day-1 instead of the seventh day -- as either "the new Sabbath" or as your own personal "Lord's day" is a preference or a later tradition rather than something that comes to us from the actual New Testament.

The real reason the Seventh Day Adventists are so fixed on this topic,

Try posting an actual Bible fact in response to the OP where specific details are laid out for you? Why avoid the obvious??

the same weak/wrong arguments over and over again,

Prove it - post an actual Bible fact in direct response to the OP that you are avoiding.

 

[BobRyan]

WoW - at this point 100% of the responses NOT in favor of the statements in the OP - proceed by ignoring every Bible fact listed in the OP - in fact not challenging a single one.

How "instructive" for the unbiased objective reader.

 

[BobRyan]

By the same token there is not one text in the new covenant that says we are to worship on Saturday.

Your post actually AFFIRMS the OP and then proceeds to make the wild claim that without quoting the New Covenant at all (Hint: Jer 31:31-34) you think you have yet ANOTHER irrefutable point to go along with the irrefutable points listed in the OP.

You don't actually have that - as anyone can see who takes the time to READ the New Covenant Jer 31:31-34 (and also quoted verbatim in Heb 8).

But this thread is not about switching to some other topic that you suppose to also be 'irrefutable' .. Rather the OP is what you are supposed to respond to - IF you find that one of those statements it makes - is in fact not irrefutable.

Simply attempting to find some other point that you also think is "irrefutable" does not address the OP claims.

 

[BobRyan]

Not just a salvation issue, but they believe they will be persecuted and forced to worship on Sunday. The evil Catholics, in league with...

obligatory rant deleted at that point.

Try responding to the actual statements in the OP.

 

[chevyontheriver]

obligatory rant deleted at that point.

Try responding to the actual statements in the OP.

Not just a salvation issue, but they believe they will be persecuted and forced to worship on Sunday. The evil Catholics, in league with other Christians, will have the governments of the world mandate Sunday worship. Ellen Gould White said so.

So Ellen Gould White didn't say that you guys would face persecution from governments based on Catholics demanding you worship on Sunday? OK. I stand corrected.

Honestly nobody cares which day you think you need to worship. Or that you think the Catholic Church moved the Sabbath.

 

[BobRyan]

Not just a salvation issue, but they believe they will be persecuted

Not the subject of this thread.

You apparently find the irrefutable details claim in the OP - to be so inconvenient you are posting here but entirely ignoring the OP.

and forced to worship on Sunday. The evil Catholics, in league with...

obligatory rant deleted

So Ellen Gould White didn't say that you guys would face persecution...

Not the subject of this thread.

Honestly nobody cares which day you think you need to worship.

As the OP points out -- some people actually do care what is in the Bible.

Feel free to address the actual subject of the thread in the OP. Or do you find it so irrefutable that you would rather talk about something else?

=============================

As it is - you are making the OP look like some sort of mythical Kryptonite that you cannot touch with a ten foot pole. Do you really find the irrefutable statements it makes - soooo hard to deal with???

 

[trophy33]

Prove it - post an actual Bible fact in direct response to the OP that you are avoiding.

The verses in the OP have nothing to do with specific SDA teaching you are trying to teach here. They are not about keeping sabbath, they are about preaching during sabbath.

Regarding Sunday - Sunday in Christianity is not "kept" in the same way Jews kept their Sabbath. Sunday is a celebration day that, in time, transformed into regular meetings in the most churches. It has originally nothing to do with Jewish Sabbath.

 

[trophy33]

Why avoid the obvious??

Ok, do not avoid it and tell us - do you believe sabbath keeping is needed for us to be saved? Clear answer yes/no, please. Do not avoid it.

And define precisely what is keeping the sabbath, in our era. No subjective, vague answers.

But from the previous conversations, I almost certainly know you will not answer any of these.

 

[trophy33]

WoW - at this point 100% of the responses NOT in favor of the statements in the OP - proceed by ignoring every Bible fact listed in the OP - in fact not challenging a single one.

How "instructive" for the unbiased objective reader.

Because its for the thousand time. Your goal is to preach your SDA "gospel", therefore you (or some of your SDA colleagues) will create another such thread even if this one is discussed thoroughly.

Why do you even create new threads, when there are so many older and current ones about the same topic? You leave them, after not being to defend your positions and after some time you start it anew, demanding for a repetition.