CDC updates guidance, recommends vaccinated people wear masks indoors in certain areas

FireDragon76 · Jul 30, 2021

RDKirk said:
Nothing has changed from my view of the situation 'way back in February 2020. There were certain things I realized then that are still true now.

It can certainly appear at first glance we've all been handled with less than full transparency. But I understand why they did that. Utter transparency would have been even more unpalatable than the half measures and (over) managed advice that has been recommended from official sources. Remember that Fauci was having to deal with a president who had a proven track record of severely bullying messengers of bad news.

I guess only historians decades from now will be able to judge this situation with anything approaching objectivity.

FireDragon76 · Jul 30, 2021

rjs330 said:
Of course I do. God does not lie. And you toss out "most biblical scholars" as if it's the truth. More disinformation.

It's not. You go to Harvard or Yale's divinity school and that's what you are going to more or less hear is the content of much of the Bible, at the very least, that the Bible contains mostly mythical stories and legends shaped for political and theological reasons.

Nothing, not ever your religion, is completely untouched by political considerations.

So perhaps be less quick to accuse people like Dr. Fauci of being fundamentally dishonest, lest you be throwing stones in glass houses.

RDKirk · Jul 30, 2021

FireDragon76 said:
It can certainly appear at first glance we've all been handled with less than full transparency. But I understand why they did that. Utter transparency would have been even more unpalatable than the half measures and (over) managed advice that has been recommended from official sources. Remember that Fauci was having to deal with a president who had a proven track record of severely bullying messengers of bad news.

Having been in the position of advising decisionmakers--including cantankerous ones--Fauci still did the wrong thing. Always tell your boss the truth. But also, know your boss's mission and give him the your best advice on executing his mission within the threat.

Back when I was in intelligence school, the instructor even touched on the bible account of the twelve spies Moses sent into the Promised Land. Ten of them came back with the "bad news" that the inhabitants of Canaan were too fearsome and that the whole plan should be called off. Our instructor warned us: Never tell the commander that the mission can't be completed. If there is a threat, tell him where the threat is weakest, tell him where he has an opportunity to overcome it. Then let him handle it. You never slant the truth, because you don't know what total resources are at the commander's hand.

This whole epidemic isn't much different from a battlefield biological attack. The problem is the same. I'd never advise my commander, "Oh, noes! They've launched a biological attack! We have to surrender!" No, I'd tell him the nature of the attack and he'd turn to his bio-warfare people and say, "Break out the masks." But stopping the fight...nope. And if I suggested stopping the fight, he'd toss me out of the room.

Fauci should have told the truth even to Trump. Trump wanted as much as any president would to keep the country operating--that was his mission. The epidemic would be dangerous for up to two years. That was the truth Fauci should have told. But that also included the way out: To keep the country operating during those two years would require a massive increase in PPE production.

Trump could have been a "wartime president" and handled the problem of massively increasing PPE to keep the country operating within the contagion. A shutdown toward a goal that was within Trump's ability to reach--ramping up national PPE production--would have been something Trump could tackle and then crow about.

probinson · Jul 30, 2021

FireDragon76 said:
Somebody that believes in the Bible has no business lecturing the rest of us about the evils of "noble lies", if we are to take what most biblical scholars actually have to say about the Bible seriously.

Whataboutisms! Ad hominems! Disinformation! Oh my!

Subduction Zone · Jul 30, 2021

rjs330 said:
There is nothing in his interview that changes his statements. Can you quote something that says he didn't use his gut? Or he didn't use polling or public readiness like he said he did?

You call it cherry picking and then actually quote what he said and then claim he didn't mean what he said? LOL. Your defenses aren't helpingbyou. They are just confirming what we said.

Totally wrong of course. Quoting out of context, as you and others did, changes the meaning of a quote. For example twelve different times (actually even more than that) the Bible says "There is no God". Now if I quoted the Bible out of context and tried to use that to disprove God that would be very dishonest of me. In the same way one has to interpret what Fauci said by the context of his statements.

Subduction Zone · Jul 30, 2021

whatbogsends said:
I linked the entire article. Fauci's clear manipulation of the message was something he said he did. You trying to misrepresent the obvious is dishonest.

Calling him out on lies that he admits is not "hatred".

It does not matter if you linked the article or not. And I did not try to "misrepresent the obvious". And the spin that you put on it indicates hatred on your part.

Brihaha · Jul 30, 2021

rjs330 said:
Why is everything hatred these days if you disagree with someone?

Trump exacerbated the tribalism when he forbade differing opinions in his caucus! Why indeed....

rjs330 · Jul 30, 2021

Mask wearing has proven over and over again its ineffectiveness.

1. India was praised for its mask wearing. India had 81% compliance and yet had a spike of 2966%. Now it's dripping again despite the Delta mutation.

2. Czek did a mask mandate very early on. And it "seemed" to work, until it didn't. In October they had a huge surge despite the masks. And then two more waves after that. And now it's dropping again.

3. Peru had one of the longest lockdowns with early mask mandates. Yet has one if the top death rates and compaired to Sweden, who didn't have the same response, Peru failed utterly even with the mandates.

4. Japan was heralded as awesome with their masks. 96% compliance. Japan is in their 3rd large wave. And the Olympics have no spectators because if it.

5. Germany had some serious mandates. Bavaria and Berlin were extremely strict requiring N95. Yet they failed to stop the waves and comparing them to the surgical mask mandates there was little to no difference. The waves came anyway.

There's more, but we are discovering that the waves come and go. Rise and subside despite mask mandates and compliance. We are being fed a placebo making us "feel" or think we are safer, when we aren't.

rjs330 · Jul 30, 2021

Brihaha said:
Trump exacerbated the tribalism when he forbade differing opinions in his caucus! Why indeed....

What I see and read is that the left tosses out the word hate whenever you disagree. It's become like the word racist anymore. Use it against t anyone who deaagrees with you. Utter nonsense. And another reason not to trust their logic.

ThatRobGuy · Jul 30, 2021

***It would appear that the CDC has now released the data they claim they used to make their revisions to the masking guidance for the vaccinated.

In looking it over, I have some concerns (for whatever my concerns are worth, not working as a professional in that field, but having some understanding of statistics from a business intelligence background and reasonable grasp on how to interpret data) with some of the logic and methodologies behind their reasoning for their conclusion and guidance change.

Outbreak of SARS-CoV-2 Infections, including COVID-19 ...

It would seem like using a popular large-gathering hotspot, over a major holiday weekend (and the outcomes that followed), and trying to apply that to "normal everyday life" may be falling into the realm of "extrapolating the exception"

Basically what this is showing is that, in a popular tourist area, that had thousand and thousands of people present for numerous large holiday gatherings, and being in close contact with each other.

Across those thousands of people and multiple large gatherings
469 people caught covid
346 were fully vaccinated (which doesn't skew far off the vaccinated vs. unvaccinated rate for the state which is near 70%)

Of the vaccinated people, 70% were symptomatic

Only 4 vaccinated had symptoms severe enough to require hospitalization (and 2 of them had underlying conditions)

No deaths reported

Even if not controlling for the fact that it was a popular holiday destination during a popular July holiday season, those numbers still don't suggest anything overly ominous.

When you take into account that not every city in America is as gathering prone as Cape Cod over the 4th of July holiday week, the numbers look even better with regards to the levels of vaccine efficacy and protection one should expect under normal "go to the store, hang out with a small group" types of normal every day life.

If thousands of people (well over half of whom were vaccinated) flocking to a popular destination for a holiday (with lots of large gatherings, bar hopping, lots of 'partying with strangers') only produced 342 mild cases among vaccinated, 4 hospitalizations (2 of which had previous conditions), and no deaths...

That means the vaccine provided lots of robust protection for thousands of people during that holiday week (despite lots of gatherings, being in close contact with strangers, bars, etc...)

Basically, partying in Cape Cod, unmasked, during a time when it's packed is the kind of thing you would do if you wanted to all-but-guarantee you would get sick prior to vaccines being available... the fact that among the vaccinated people, the numbers were a low as they were after that, is actually a testament to Pfizer and Moderna.

Aldebaran · Jul 30, 2021

FireDragon76 said:
It was irresponsible and goofy to even talk about that. It's the stuff an 8 year old kid would suggest off-hand

8 year old kids would also spend a lot of time talking about ice cream. But then again:

sfs · Jul 30, 2021

ThatRobGuy said:
It would seem like using a popular large-gathering hotspot, over a major holiday weekend (and the outcomes that followed), and trying to apply that to "normal everyday life" may be falling into the realm of "extrapolating the exception"

I'm listening to a discussion with Massachusetts Dept. of Public Health people about the outbreak, and they're discussing exactly that issue. Yes, this was an extreme situation and the viral dose people got may have been higher than normal. They're well aware of possible biases but it's the data we have. Welcome to public health in a pandemic: making policy decisions based on decidedly imperfect information.

FireDragon76 · Jul 30, 2021

rjs330 said:
Mask wearing has proven over and over again its ineffectiveness.

1. India was praised for its mask wearing. India had 81% compliance and yet had a spike of 2966%. Now it's dripping again despite the Delta mutation.

It's more complicated than that. Narendra Modhi allowed mass religious gatherings of maskless devotees. Millions of them swarmed to the Ganges river to cleanse their sins, and then they went home and took the Coronavirus with them.

3. Peru had one of the longest lockdowns with early mask mandates. Yet has one if the top death rates and compaired to Sweden, who didn't have the same response, Peru failed utterly even with the mandates.

Peru is also a poor country with limited medical resources, so it's not really a fair comparison.

4. Japan was heralded as awesome with their masks. 96% compliance. Japan is in their 3rd large wave. And the Olympics have no spectators because if it.

That's because of the Olympics, not because Japanese rely upon people wearing masks.

renniks · Jul 30, 2021

This just out: CDC recommends that you wear a mask while brushing your teeth!

Aldebaran · Jul 30, 2021

FireDragon76 said:
It's more complicated than that. Narendra Modhi allowed mass religious gatherings of maskless devotees. Millions of them swarmed to the Ganges river to cleanse their sins, and then they went home and took the Coronavirus with them.

It's all the fault of the religious then?

FireDragon76 said:
Peru is also a poor country with limited medical resources, so it's not really a fair comparison.

Limited number of masks? That's what was supposed to stop the spread.

FireDragon76 said:
That's because of the Olympics, not because Japanese rely upon people wearing masks.

Spectators aren't even allowed there, so blaming the Olympics isn't valid.

rjs330 · Jul 30, 2021

Subduction Zone said:
Totally wrong of course. Quoting out of context, as you and others did, changes the meaning of a quote. For example twelve different times (actually even more than that) the Bible says "There is no God". Now if I quoted the Bible out of context and tried to use that to disprove God that would be very dishonest of me. In the same way one has to interpret what Fauci said by the context of his statements.

You still haven't used the context where it shows following his gut doesn't mean he followed his guy. Or Partially following the science doesn't really mean Partially following the science. Where is the context that proves otherwise. So far you have shown it.

FireDragon76 · Jul 30, 2021

Aldebaran said:
It's all the fault of the religious then?

It's the fault of irresponsible politicians.

Spectators aren't even allowed there, so blaming the Olympics isn't valid.

Olympic staff bring the Coronavirus. That's why tens of thousands of Japanese are protesting the Olympics.

rjs330 · Jul 30, 2021

FireDragon76 said:
It's more complicated than that. Narendra Modhi allowed mass religious gatherings of maskless devotees. Millions of them swarmed to the Ganges river to cleanse their sins, and then they went home and took the Coronavirus with them.

Peru is also a poor country with limited medical resources, so it's not really a fair comparison.

That's because of the Olympics, not because Japanese rely upon people wearing masks.

Just excuses. The waves of the pandemic hit them regardless of the mandate. Evidence that the masking isn't effective. Peru may not have great medical, but it had mandates and still had large waves. Just like everywhere else that I pointed out.

Where is your evidence that the India gathering was responsible for the waves?

And Japan has had huge waves despite the masks. THAT'S why the Olympics don't have spectators. Evidence that the masking was not effective.

cow451 · Jul 30, 2021

rjs330 said:
We did. We got the vaccine

And why aren’t we doing the smart thing and using it enough???????

Aldebaran · Jul 30, 2021

FireDragon76 said:
It's the fault of irresponsible politicians.
Olympic staff bring the Coronavirus. That's why tens of thousands of Japanese are protesting the Olympics.

COVID-19 pandemic in Japan - Wikipedia
Scroll down a little to the chart on the right side. The default chart shows July, but you can change the month to June by clicking it. You'll see that the increase in cases in Japan has been steadily increasing throughout both months, with no spikes due to the Olympics.

CDC updates guidance, recommends vaccinated people wear masks indoors in certain areas

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