As riot raged at Capitol, Trump tried to call senators to overturn election

Valletta said:

The evidence of election wrongdoing is massive. There are well over a thousand affidavits, sworn under the penalty of perjury.

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The more the courts, play hard ball the more suspicious they look. They're actually discrediting themselves, without any help from their critics.

Dan1988 said:

I disagree with all the above, since I know for a fact that a President is not a puppet master as you would have me believe.
I believe the ordinary people vote for and support those who deliver the things which are important to them. So those who are patriotic voted for Trump and those who see themselves as global citizens vote Biden.
I refuse to believe that any patriotic American would desecrate and defile the very seat of their democracy. So we don't know who those rioters were, but they certainly weren't conservative Republicans.
Just because someone waves and American flag, doesn't make them anything. We can easily identify people by their actions, and I have never seen worse actions than that of the BLM supporters.

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I actually agree. I think there’s a difference between conservatives snd populists. But the Republican Party contains both, and has made few attempts until recently to distinguish. The Trumpists’ votes are too useful. But Republicans have won elections in the past without them, and I see no reason they couldn’t do so again.

Dan1988 said:

I just think it's a shame to close a case before the all evidence is exhibited

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What makes you think that any evidence exists? Audits and investigations haven’t turned anything significant up (although I’m sure that there was an incident involving a guy’s dead mother voting for trump).

Dan1988 said:

The more the courts, play hard ball the more suspicious they look. They're actually discrediting themselves, without any help from their critics.

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So, did the Governor of Georgia, the LT. Governor and/or Secretary of State commit or abet election fraud?

cow451 said:

Did the Governor Georgia, the LT. Governor and Secretary of State commit or abet election fraud?

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Please don't shoot me Sir, I'm just the messenger. I'm not accusing any individual of election fraud, I'm just saying the same that the rest of us are.
We just can't understand why the defendants, won't cooperate and come clean and put thing to bed once and for all.

Valletta said:

I thought that the government knew in advance from the Internet that a right wing group was planning an attack.

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You're right. This is the best question of the discussion. When BLM protesters were around, DC was packed with enforcement. Why not this time, when there was intelligence that there was going to be a problem? There's pretty clearly going to be an investigation.

It's unlikely that anyone in the Capitol Police intentionally allowed this to happen. But it's also likely that they considered a bunch of the president's supporters less of a threat than BLM. Ordinarily that might make sense, but in this situation with this president, and with the intelligence that was available, bad decision.

The remaining question is whether the President gave specific orders that left the capitol unprotected. I have heard claims that he determined that the capitol police should do it without National Guard. From Trump's perspective, that would have been a reasonable recommendation. He wouldn't have regarded his own supporters as a threat. But he would have been wrong.

Vylo said:

This has to be a troll. Not even half our country believes there was fraud, let alone half the world, who, if you have been paying attention are welcoming Biden, hoping he will be a bit more stable than his predecessor who bowed to tyrants.

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Of course they're welcoming Biden, they see him as an old geriatric who's willing to sell America cheap.

Dan1988 said:

Please don't shoot me Sir, I'm just the messenger. I'm not accusing any individual of election fraud, I'm just saying the same that the rest of us are.
We just can't understand why the defendants, won't cooperate and come clean and put thing to bed once and for all.

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Who are the defendants? 60 judges? 50 Governors and election officials? Both Houses of Congress? The nine members of the Supreme Court? Who do you want to put on trial? And who are the Plaintiffs?

Like Lindsey Graham said, “Give me something!”

Dan1988 said:

Of course they're welcoming Biden, they see him as an old geriatric who's willing to sell America cheap.

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Who “they”?

Dan1988 said:

OK I get it, according to you 40 million reasons is not enough. You obviously set the bar much higher than I would, to open an investigation. I guess it makes you feel safer, knowing we can't jump that high

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Forty million delusional people is not forty million reasons. I set the bar to a rather low height. Those delusional Republicans failed. They could not get over it.

It is time to face facts your side lost. In a landslide. I am betting that you do not understand the concept of reliable evidence.

cow451 said:

Who are the defendants? 60 judges? 50 Governors and election officials? Both Houses of Congress? The nine members of the Supreme Court? Who do you want to put on trial? And who are the Plaintiffs?

Like Lindsey Graham said, “Give me something!”

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Mr. Graham just happens to be on the same payroll as the others you mentioned. We would have to follow the money trail, to get to the root of it.
I'm not persuaded by a persons tile, nobody has a monopoly on the truth just because they hold a high office.

It is in fact a concern if a large, though minority group of our population thinks there was a fraud but there wasn't. Elections are state matters, and there have been investigations of those claims that are specific enough to investigate. But should there be something done nationally that might change peoples' minds? I think it's worth considering. But you have to start by asking whether anything actually would change their minds. What would have to be done that hasn't already been done? Would a presentation listing all the claims and what has been done to investigate them be good enough?

Dan1988 said:

Mr. Graham just happens to be on the same payroll as the others you mentioned. We would have to follow the money trail, to get to the root of it.
I'm not persuaded by a persons tile, nobody has a monopoly on the truth just because they hold a high office.

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Do you know how why the grand sorts or conspiracies that you believe in do not exist? Because people talk.

TLK Valentine said:

Remember that Jesus was called "the Messiah," which, in Hebrew theology, was originally thought to be the one who would raise Israel back to power, smite its enemies, lead it to glory, etc., etc...
...
Now, too, Donald has come to an ignoble end... although I suspect some of his followers are expecting him to turn this around with some sort glorious resurrection, like The Other Fellow had. But until that occurs, Donald's followers are now in that awkward moment of rethinking and redefining what it was they ever saw in him... because remember, Donald has taught that admitting error is a sign of weakness which is to be avoided at all costs, so his followers can never admit they were wrong about him.

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without any hint of irony this was published:

hedrick said:

It is in fact a concern if a large, though minority group of our population thinks there was a fraud but there wasn't. Elections are state matters, and there have been investigations of those claims that are specific enough to investigate. But should there be something done nationally that might change peoples' minds? I think it's worth considering. But you have to start by asking whether anything actually would change their minds. What would have to be done that hasn't already been done? Would a presentation listing all the claims and what has been done to investigate them be good enough?

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I can't see any possibility of a fair outcome. This thing is too big, it's the same old story. The man with more money wins.
The bigger problem which nobody seems to be concerned about, is the division and hatred among the American people. It doesn't matter who the President is if the people declare another civil war.

Subduction Zone said:

Do you know how why the grand sorts or conspiracies that you believe in do not exist? Because people talk.

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Conspiracy theories are old hat, they do it in your face now so you won't believe that it's a conspiracy. They figured out that the more you try to hide something, the harder it gets to keep it hidden.
Now it's done in the open and nobody believes what they see anymore.

Dan1988 said:

Conspiracy theories are old hat, they do it in your face now so you won't believe that it's a conspiracy. They figured out that the more you try to hide something, the harder it gets to keep it hidden.
Now it's done in the open and nobody believes what they see anymore.

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Uh huh.

Dan1988 said:

Conspiracy theories are old hat, they do it in your face now so you won't believe that it's a conspiracy. They figured out that the more you try to hide something, the harder it gets to keep it hidden.
Now it's done in the open and nobody believes what they see anymore.

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If no one believed it anymore why did so many people show up in Washington to try and stop the confirmation of Biden?

Dan1988 said:

I can't see any possibility of a fair outcome. This thing is too big, it's the same old story. The man with more money wins.
The bigger problem which nobody seems to be concerned about, is the division and hatred among the American people. It doesn't matter who the President is if the people declare another civil war.

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Division and hatred fomented by right-wing fundamentalist Evangelicals, who want a civil war because they hope to win it this time around.

Dan1988 said:

I can't see any possibility of a fair outcome. This thing is too big, it's the same old story. The man with more money wins.

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All his life, Donald's been accustomed to being that man...

The bigger problem which nobody seems to be concerned about, is the division and hatred among the American people. It doesn't matter who the President is if the people declare another civil war.

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A civil war would require two sides with two leaders... on the one side we have the United States government...

...on the other side, we have...?