The Great Tribulation: 66-70 AD, or

klutedavid said:

We have a problem Houston.
Luke 21:32
Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all things take place.

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See my reply in Post # 25

Maria Billingsley said:

Yes He said great tribulation however He did not say "The" great tribulation. You may want to check back in history, there has been much tribulation to those who follow Jesus Christ of Nazareth since He ascended to heaven.

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He started off by saying that His disciples will become hated of all nations and delivered up to tribulation and killed. He stated that this gospel of the Kingdom would first be preached in all the world as a witness to all nations. Then He continued with the word "Therefore.." when you shall see the AOD, then flee Judea (He stated the area) because then shall be Great Tribulation.. He finishes by saying He will appear in the clouds immediately following this period of Great Tribulation and gather His elect.

He is quite clearly speaking about a specific period of tribulation that would be (AD70?) or will be (time of His return?) the greatest tribulation ever to have been experienced, or will ever be experienced. The only question is: Did it happen in 70AD and will it only happen ONCE?

klutedavid said:

Ah yes, I have heard of the book of Revelation.

We were discussing Matthew 24 and Luke 21, and somehow we are in the book of Revelation? So how did that happen?

The temple in Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans in 70 AD. We are not talking about the court of the Gentiles, we are talking about the whole temple and Jerusalem.

Revelation 11, is not referring to that desolate, man made temple in 70 AD. We have symbols displayed in Revelation 11, and you cannot read Revelation 11 in a literal way.

I get accused of cherry picking verses?

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Is not the book of Revelation's references to the beast ascended out of the bottomless pit making war against the saints and being destroyed by Christ at His return (when the seventh trumpet sounds and He comes to destroy the beast) not in any way elaborating on His words in Matthew 24:29-31 where He states He will appear in the clouds to gather His elect immediately following the tribulation He was talking about?

Which of the two passages are not related to the return of Christ? How many times does He return?

klutedavid said:

They are not parallel texts.
One possible interpretation (of the temple in Revelation 11) is, the temple refers to the church.

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I agree.

klutedavid said:

All the shadows were fulfilled by Jesus already. The old covenant was cancelled and we now we await His return. We are firmly in the age of the Gentiles now and it's our turn to screw it all up. Which we are doing very well of course.

Old Testament Israel will never be seen again.

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I'm not talking about Jews who reject Christ, or what you call "Old Testament Israel". I'm talking about prophecy and prophesied Biblical events.

Dave L said:

What is your point? What are you trying to prove?

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Maybe you don't like me proving that your reliance on Josephus counts 0.00 x 10,-000 to the power of infinity?

klutedavid said:

I think it is called, the 'abomination of desolation', rather than, the abomination that causes desolation.

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It's a reference to a passage that calls it the above. Your semantics is comical though.

Dave L said:

Ther is no millennium. It is a Pharisee doctrine Jesus corrected in the gospels teaching a spiritual kingdom only.

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Fortunately Jesus' own words and the words of the apostles correct your notion of a spiritual kingdom only, as can be seen from the replies in this thread from people who understand these things better

Dave L said:

Prove a physical millennium from Jesus' words in the gospels. Here's where your entire theme crashes.

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That's already been done in other threads by other people and you're still blinded to the facts so no point in starting that again here.

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BABerean2 said:

It is OK to agree on some points, and respectfully disagree on Revelation 20.

I have not been able to find mortals left alive on the planet at the end of Matthew 25:31-46, or at the end of 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, or in 2 Peter 3:10-13.

Because of Mark 1:1-10, I cannot see how a demonic being like Satan can be bound by a steel chain.
I find wicked angels already bound in 2 Peter 2:4, and in Jude 1:6, and bound angels being released in Revelation 9:14.

I will still love you if we cannot agree on this point. Much of what you have said in this thread is right on the money.
Revelation chapter 20 is a very difficult chapter. Its timing is revealed by the fire, and the judgment of the dead, both coming at the end of the chapter. The judgment of the dead is also found in Revelation 11:18.

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I'm 100% respectful of A-Millennialists and understand why and how they come to believe in a symbolic millennium. If they shoot out cocky posts containing cocky remarks at me, I shoot back with the same in my replies. But I'm 100% respectful of A-millennialists and am quite capable of learning from some of them. I also got to share in the gold discovered by A-millennialist Christian Gedge in the scriptures expressed in his "Atonement Clock" work because my mind is not closed to what A-millennialists say just because I don't believe they are correct with regard to the millennium.

Obviously I've thought a great deal about this thousand years and searched a whole lot more, and have reasons why I believe A-millennialism cuts God's preordained timing short by 1,000 years - but without going into the reasons let me just shorten it to say that the reason for the literal thousand years has nothing to do with "the restoration of Israel", but it has everything to do with Christ's inheritance and the promises made to Him. He is still the Son of Man and the last Adam, and God's purpose for man when he created man, and His promise to the Son of Man has not changed, and cannot be spiritualized. He will reign in a very literal way with a rod of iron and at the end of His reign, He will hand the Kingdom back to God the Father. His Kingdom is a spiritual Kingdom in this present time, this present Age. There is a reason He taught us to pray "Thy Kingdom Come", though His Kingdom has come.

BABerean2 said:

Pastor Wagner on the Millennium:

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Before I watch that video I know I already don't believe anything Tim LaHaye says about a Pre-Trib Rapture. I'm watching it now but I'm already sure I will notice immediately where Pastor Wagner goes wrong in his interpretations of the millennium. "The last day" = the last day of this Age but ultimately it refers to the GWT last day. There is no reason to assume that Revelation 20:12-15 = the resurrection to take place when the Lord returns. There is also no place in the Bible where resurrection refers to "spiritual" resurrection taking place millions of times in those who are saved across 2,000 or more years, because every single verse in the New Testament talking about the resurrection or rising again from the dead, is referring to a bodily resurrection, and we are told that we must be born from above in order to inherit the Kingdom of God - we are not told we must be "spiritually resurrected". Those who are resurrected when the Lord returns will not be hurt by the second death at the last day when all are resurrected.

The GWT = the last day resurrection. We all know that. So it still boils down to whether or not there is validity in the notion of a symbolic millennium.