Total depravity

dms1972 · May 24, 2020

I want to ask about this. This is one of the most difficult points of calvinism for me, because if I accept it, will I not just act in a worse way than I would have if I had not heard it? What does the Bible say about this and what does it mean? Jesus said "if you being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly father give good gifts to those who ask him." Matthew 7:11 I wonder if we use the term "evil" differently today, is it not nowadays a term reserved for serial killers and such? Most of us do not like to think of ourselves as evil. Are there degrees of evilness? So what did Jesus mean when he said "if you being evil..." ?

GospelS · May 24, 2020

Greek :
Matthew 7:11 εἰ οὖν ὑμεῖς πονηροὶ ὄντες οἴδατε δόματα ἀγαθὰ διδόναι τοῖς τέκνοις ὑμῶν, πόσῳ μᾶλλον ὁ πατὴρ ὑμῶν ὁ ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς δώσει ἀγαθὰ τοῖς αἰτοῦσιν αὐτόν.

Literal Verse:
If then you yourselves being worthless have seen valuable gifts to give those kids of yours, how much more that Father of yours, the one in the skies, will give valuable things to those asking him?

In my study I've have read that this verse is a great example of the problem with translating the Greek word translated as "evil" when it means "worthless" or "second-rate" and its opposite as "good" when the sense is "valuable" as it starts with Jesus calling his audience "worthless," not "evil," and making a joke about them still giving value despite being worthless.

Hammster · May 24, 2020

Here’s a good start.

So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.
— Matthew 7:17-18

Do you not understand that everything that goes into the mouth passes into the stomach, and is eliminated? But the things that proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and those defile the man. For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders. These are the things which defile the man; but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile the man.”
— Matthew 15:17-20

What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; as it is written,
“There is none righteous, not even one;
There is none who understands,
There is none who seeks for God;
All have turned aside, together they have become useless;
There is none who does good,
There is not even one.”
“Their throat is an open grave,
With their tongues they keep deceiving,”
“The poison of asps is under their lips”;
“Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness”;
“Their feet are swift to shed blood,
Destruction and misery are in their paths,
And the path of peace they have not known.”
“There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
— Romans 3:9-18

Hazelelponi · May 24, 2020

dms1972 said:
I want to ask about this. This is one of the most difficult points of calvinism for me, because if I accept it, will I not just act in a worse way than I would have if I had not heard it? What does the Bible say about this and what does it mean? Jesus said "if you being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly father give good gifts to those who ask him." Matthew 7:11 I wonder if we use the term "evil" differently today, is it not nowadays a term reserved for serial killers and such? Most of us do not like to think of ourselves as evil. Are there degrees of evilness? So what did Jesus mean when he said "if you being evil..." ?

Evil is anything that is sin... sin is rebellion against God.

All men on earth have sinned. Period. All men sinners. It doesn't matter if your a good "religionist" and mostly follow the rules the point is the same. Your not better in your sin than the serial killer is in his, because all sin is rebellion against God - it can take many forms but is born out of three main sins:

The lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes and the pride of life...

Eve failed all three counts, and Jesus overcame on all three counts during the temptation in the wilderness.

The reason your not better but have an appearance of being better is your judging sin by the world's standards and not Gods. When you see sin as rebellion against God, the lie is seen the same as the murder, because both are equally rebellious against God's way.

Did you ever rob change from your father to buy a treat without asking permission? That's a thief - whether your stealing diamonds or candy money, it's stealing.

Did you ever wish your wife was more like the neighbors wife? That's coveting... and adulterous.

You can go on down a list for sins, but they are all equal in their rebellion against God's plan, against God himself, and so is a sin against God.

People are usually great about appearing righteous, but under the surface they aren't any less a sinner than anyone else, and that is what Adam and Eve brought into the world through their fall, they imparted in their offspring sin and death.

It is because of this, that ALL men, free or slave, Jew or Gentile, are under equal condemnation due to sin. "There is no one righteous, no, not one." According to scripture.

According to the world, telling a white lie is no big deal. According to God, it is rebellion and thus, sin.

When you see yourself through God's eyes, and how He sees sin, you will be on your knees begging for mercy...

The meaning of total depravity is that man is so depraved in his nature we need a Savior, because on our own we cannot turn to God, or turn from sin .. we are not essentially good, that make some mistakes. We are, to the core of our being, enemies of God, and the Bible calls us so.

Dead men don't grab ropes.

dms1972 · May 24, 2020

Hazelelponi said:
Evil is anything that is sin... sin is rebellion against God.

All men on earth have sinned. Period. All men sinners. It doesn't matter if your a good "religionist" and mostly follow the rules the point is the same. Your not better in your sin than the serial killer is in his, because all sin is rebellion against God - it can take many forms but is born out of three main sins:

The lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes and the pride of life...

Eve failed all three counts, and Jesus overcame on all three counts during the temptation in the wilderness.

The reason your not better but have an appearance of being better is your judging sin by the world's standards and not Gods. When you see sin as rebellion against God, the lie is seen the same as the murder, because both are equally rebellious against God's way.

Did you ever rob change from your father to buy a treat without asking permission? That's a thief - whether your stealing diamonds or candy money, it's stealing.

Did you ever wish your wife was more like the neighbors wife? That's coveting... and adulterous.

You can go on down a list for sins, but they are all equal in their rebellion against God's plan, against God himself, and so is a sin against God.

People are usually great about appearing righteous, but under the surface they aren't any less a sinner than anyone else, and that is what Adam and Eve brought into the world through their fall, they imparted in their offspring sin and death.

It is because of this, that ALL men, free or slave, Jew or Gentile, are under equal condemnation due to sin. "There is no one righteous, no, not one." According to scripture.

According to the world, telling a white lie is no big deal. According to God, it is rebellion and thus, sin.

When you see yourself through God's eyes, and how He sees sin, you will be on your knees begging for mercy...

The meaning of total depravity is that man is so depraved in his nature we need a Savior, because on our own we cannot turn to God, or turn from sin .. we are not essentially good, that make some mistakes. We are, to the core of our being, enemies of God, and the Bible calls us so.

Dead men don't grab ropes.

Its funny you should say "dead men don't grab ropes", because I was listening to a sermon by Norman Geisler a week or so ago, he used an analogy of hyper calvinism, and of moderate calvinism - I don't know if any of these theologies really help me, but anyway - Geisler used this analogy - he said a farmer had a pond at the bottom of his field, and young men would come and swim there. Then one day the farmer said I don't want them to swim there and drown, and he put up a fence and a sign which forbid swimming there. One day the farmer came back and found the three young men drowning. Geisler described three ways the farmer could respond:

1. He could watch the men drown and do nothing to help - he could be all just - they disobeyed the sign and trespassed. This he says is what extreme calvinists hold - that God doesn't have to save anyone. And Geisler asks if God didn't act to save anyone would he also be all-loving (Geisler believes God is both all loving and all just)

2. He could pick one of the three and through a rope to that one.

3. He could throw three ropes to each man, but only one accepts the help, the others try to get out of difficulty on their own, but drown. That was Geisler's view, he refered to himself as a moderate calvinist. He said God doesn't force his love on us.

As I said I don't get on very well with these theologies either moderate or extreme versions, they don't help me a lot in understanding how to become a christian I find, which I am told has to do with the work of the Holy Spirit, and more often I end up in difficulties with theology.

Hazelelponi · May 24, 2020

dms1972 said:
Its funny you should say "dead men don't grab ropes", because I was listening to a sermon by Norman Geisler a week or so ago, he used an analogy of hyper calvinism, and of moderate calvinism - I don't know if any of these theologies really help me, but anyway - Geisler used this story - he said a farmer had a pond at the bottom of his garden and young men would come and swim there. Then one day the farmer said I don't want them to swim there and drown, and he put up a fence and a sign which forbid swimming there. One day the farmer came back and found the three young men drowning. Geisler described three ways the farmer could respond:

1. He could watch the men drown and do nothing to help - he could be all just - they disobeyed the sign and trespassed. This he says is what extreme calvinists hold - that God doesn't have to save anyone. And Geisler asks if God didn't act to save anyone would he also be all-loving (Geisler believes God is both all loving and all just)

2. He could pick one of the three and through a rope to that one.

3. He could throw three ropes to each man, but only one accepts the help, the others try to get out of difficulty on their own, but drown. That was Geisler's view, he refered to himself as a moderate calvinist. He said God doesn't force his love on us.

As I said I don't get on very well with these theologies either moderate or extreme versions, they don't help me a lot in understanding how to become a christian I find, which I am told has to do with the work of the Holy Spirit, and more often I end up in difficulties with theology.

The rope analogy is common, but the Bible says:

"As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath." Ephesians 2:1-3

This is the Bible. The inerrant word of God. This is saying we are dead, and dead men can't grab ropes. They must be brought back to life, through a regenerative work, in order to do that.

Scripture continues:

"But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved." Ephesians 2:4-5

This is all Calvinists say. We just say the Bible is true in what it expresses. We must be regenerated by God.. not simply make the right choice. It's all His work, not our own.

Hazelelponi · May 24, 2020

dms1972 said:
Its funny you should say "dead men don't grab ropes", because I was listening to a sermon by Norman Geisler a week or so ago, he used an analogy of hyper calvinism, and of moderate calvinism - I don't know if any of these theologies really help me, but anyway - Geisler used this story - he said a farmer had a pond at the bottom of his garden and young men would come and swim there. Then one day the farmer said I don't want them to swim there and drown, and he put up a fence and a sign which forbid swimming there. One day the farmer came back and found the three young men drowning. Geisler described three ways the farmer could respond:

1. He could watch the men drown and do nothing to help - he could be all just - they disobeyed the sign and trespassed. This he says is what extreme calvinists hold - that God doesn't have to save anyone. And Geisler asks if God didn't act to save anyone would he also be all-loving (Geisler believes God is both all loving and all just)

2. He could pick one of the three and through a rope to that one.

3. He could throw three ropes to each man, but only one accepts the help, the others try to get out of difficulty on their own, but drown. That was Geisler's view, he refered to himself as a moderate calvinist. He said God doesn't force his love on us.

As I said I don't get on very well with these theologies either moderate or extreme versions, they don't help me a lot in understanding how to become a christian I find, which I am told has to do with the work of the Holy Spirit, and more often I end up in difficulties with theology.

To go further scripturally than my previous post (2 posts in a row) speaking on Ephesians 2, this concept is seen most clearly in Acts, in the conversion of Lydia.

Paul was preaching and:

"One of those listening was a woman from the city of Thyatira named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth. She was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul’s message. 15 When she and the members of her household were baptized, she invited us to her home. “If you consider me a believer in the Lord,” she said, “come and stay at my house.” And she persuaded us." Acts of the Apostles 16:11-40

Regeneration that leads to salvation is a work of God. You may not realize it as such at the time, but it doesn't make it any less true. This is why we pray for the unsaved, for the message of salvation to reach them.

Behold · May 24, 2020

dms1972 said:
So what did Jesus mean when he said "if you being evil..." ?

Jesus is speaking about unbelief.
He's speaking about their "state", which is "unbelievers".
He is referring to them, as "of your Father the Devil".
As all of these are the same, all evil, and its all a condition of the heart.
"an evil heart of unbelief'."

icxn · May 24, 2020

If we ascribe to the doctrine of total depravity, aren't we essentially accusing God of having totally abandoned us (deprived us of His Grace) after the fall, which is certainly not true since many Saints in the Old Testament are said to have been righteous and to have pleased Him?

God created us good. Human nature, made after God's image, is good. Yes, our nature became sick with sin (an accident not a quality of nature) after the fall that made it difficult to chose and to do that which is good, but not to the degree that all we do must necessarily be evil. Also, when we do good this is not our work or something to boast about, since we simply reflect God's image. In other words, we don't deprive God of His Glory when we do good, but rather glorify Him.

Recommended reading: "On what bases do Eastern-Orthodox reject total depravity."

1213 · May 24, 2020

dms1972 said:
I want to ask about this. This is one of the most difficult points of calvinism for me, because if I accept it, will I not just act in a worse way than I would have if I had not heard it? What does the Bible say about this and what does it mean? Jesus said "if you being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly father give good gifts to those who ask him." Matthew 7:11 I wonder if we use the term "evil" differently today, is it not nowadays a term reserved for serial killers and such? Most of us do not like to think of ourselves as evil. Are there degrees of evilness? So what did Jesus mean when he said "if you being evil..." ?

I understand it means bad, people who don’t really love as God wants.

dms1972 · May 24, 2020

Hazelelponi said:
The rope analogy is common, but the Bible says:

"As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath." Ephesians 2:1-3

This is the Bible. The inerrant word of God. This is saying we are dead, and dead men can't grab ropes. They must be brought back to life, through a regenerative work, in order to do that.

Scripture continues:

"But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved." Ephesians 2:4-5

This is all Calvinists say. We just say the Bible is true in what it expresses. We must be regenerated by God.. not simply make the right choice. It's all His work, not our own.

Thankyou for your replies. Having listened to people discuss this many times, I am aware there is a difference between groups in the way dead is interpreted, some say it means separated from. Also the Bible says before salvation we are lost, and other places it talks about being bound.

dms1972 · May 24, 2020

Behold said:
Jesus is speaking about unbelief.
He's speaking about their "state", which is "unbelievers".
He is referring to them, as "of your Father the Devil".
As all of these are the same, all evil, and its all a condition of the heart.
"an evil heart of unbelief'."

Are you sure he is refering to his audience here as being "of your father the devil." Is that not something he just said to the religious leaders and pharisees who were opposing him?

Matthew 7:11 So if you who are evil know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good things to those who ask Him!

bling · May 24, 2020

dms1972 said:
I want to ask about this. This is one of the most difficult points of calvinism for me, because if I accept it, will I not just act in a worse way than I would have if I had not heard it? What does the Bible say about this and what does it mean? Jesus said "if you being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly father give good gifts to those who ask him." Matthew 7:11 I wonder if we use the term "evil" differently today, is it not nowadays a term reserved for serial killers and such? Most of us do not like to think of ourselves as evil. Are there degrees of evilness? So what did Jesus mean when he said "if you being evil..." ?

People come up with the idea of “Total Depravity”, by saying the sinner is “dead” and dead people cannot do anything, but how does Deity use the word dead:

Jesus could use any words He wanted to in describing the prodigal son, but twice referred to him as being “dead” even though the father knew the son was alive, so in a dead state (by Christ’s definition of dead) a person can do stuff that causes them to come to their senses and for selfish reasons tern to the Father.

It is very true the nonbelieving sinner cannot do anything honorable, righteous, worthy, deserving of anything, but the unbelieving sinner can wimp out, give up and surrender to his enemy while God is still his enemy in hopes of receiving undeserved charity and thus have some kind of livable life. Again, the sinner is not joining God or doing anything toward deserving salvation. Actually the surrendering sinner should be tortured to death for previous war crimes.

dms1972 · May 24, 2020

bling said:
People come up with the idea of “Total Depravity”, by saying the sinner is “dead” and dead people cannot do anything, but how does Deity use the word dead:

Jesus could use any words He wanted to in describing the prodigal son, but twice referred to him as being “dead” even though the father knew the son was alive, so in a dead state (by Christ’s definition of dead) a person can do stuff that causes them to come to their senses and for selfish reasons tern to the Father.

It is very true the nonbelieving sinner cannot do anything honorable, righteous, worthy, deserving of anything, but the unbelieving sinner can wimp out, give up and surrender to his enemy while God is still his enemy in hopes of receiving undeserved charity and thus have some kind of livable life. Again, the sinner is not joining God or doing anything toward deserving salvation. Actually the surrendering sinner should be tortured to death for previous war crimes.

What do you mean by "war crimes" why do you use that terminology, if you don't mind me asking?

bling · May 24, 2020

dms1972 said:
What do you mean by "war crimes"?

As a soldier of satan (like Saul/Paul was) we have done much hurting of the innocent prior to becoming a Christian (war crimes).

dms1972 · May 24, 2020

bling said:
As a soldier of satan (like Saul/Paul was) we have done much hurting of the innocent prior to becoming a Christian (war crimes).

That may be true of some, but is it the case of everyone who is lost, not everyone was persecuting the church?

bling · May 25, 2020

dms1972 said:
That may be true of some, but is it the case of everyone who is lost, not everyone was persecuting the church?

We tend to think: Your sins were really bad, but my sins are not that bad.
Without going into a lot of detail: I grow up a good kid, but I did sin. At the time I made my commitment to Christ and was baptized I did not think I was that "bad". But I have since come to the realization: If I had not sinned and went on to fulfill my earthly objective Christ would not have had to go to the cross for me, but could I have kept Christ from going to the cross period? When Christ was in the garden praying for another way, could God have looked down the corridor of time and seen I had fulfilled my objective without sinning, so there was another way?
I forced Christ to go to the cross, so that is a war crime deserving a torturous death.

Neostarwcc · May 26, 2020

dms1972 said:
I want to ask about this. This is one of the most difficult points of calvinism for me, because if I accept it, will I not just act in a worse way than I would have if I had not heard it? What does the Bible say about this and what does it mean? Jesus said "if you being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly father give good gifts to those who ask him." Matthew 7:11 I wonder if we use the term "evil" differently today, is it not nowadays a term reserved for serial killers and such? Most of us do not like to think of ourselves as evil. Are there degrees of evilness? So what did Jesus mean when he said "if you being evil..." ?

The doctrine of Total Depravity goes like this. By ourselves because of our sinful nature, we cannot go to God and it is impossible for a person to choose to follow God because of the fallen nature that every single human who ever walked this Earth has inheritted from Adam And Eve. It can be looked at this way, is it possible for us when we are born of a fleshly sin nature to not sin? No, it is impossible right? Because Paul says that Not ONE person is Righteous (Sinless) no, not ONE. The only sinless person to ever walk this Earth was Jesus Christ because 1. He was God in the Flesh and 2. He was born from God and therefore did not have a sinful nature. Virtually ALL of the time we sin without even thinking about it and it just comes as common nature. Even those of us who have been born again into a completely new creation do give in to the tempations of sin. Sometimes without even thinking about it. The Doctrine of Total Depravity is the same way. We cannot choose to go to God or accept God's salvation by ourselves because God has to change our hearts and our very nature that every human was born with and has disobeyed God without even thinking anything is wrong and that it's just merely "human" to do so. Most of us pre salvation don't even see our sin or see that anything is even remotely wrong. God has to change our mind about that and get us to see our sin and how much we fall short of his perfection each and every day of our lives.

This doctrine is supported in several verses of scripture but the main ones Calvinists (And other Christians who believe in and accept this doctrine) use are Romans 11:32, Acts 16:14, Acts 5:31, Acts 11:38, Philippians 1:29, Ephesians 2:1-2, 4-5, Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 12:3, John 6:44,66, 2 Timothy 2:24-25, 2 Peter 1:3, & Colossians 2:13.

dms1972 · May 26, 2020

Neostarwcc said:
The doctrine of Total Depravity goes like this. By ourselves because of our sinful nature, we cannot go to God and it is impossible for a person to choose to follow God because of the fallen nature that every single human who ever walked this Earth has inheritted from Adam And Eve.

I think I understand it, but read someone saying its better to refer to it as Total Inability. But then is that also saying a person cannot come to Christ, I suppose because Jesus said "No one can come to me except the Father draws him." But what about when the Gospel is being preached, is everyone hearing it not able to respond then, isn't everyone is invited.

Neostarwcc · May 27, 2020

dms1972 said:
I think I understand it, but read someone saying its better to refer to it as Total Inability. But then is that also saying a person cannot come to Christ, I suppose because Jesus said "No one can come to me except the Father draws him." But what about when the Gospel is being preached, is everyone hearing it not able to respond then, isn't everyone is invited.

Depends on who you ask. If you ask a Calvinist they would say no and that when we preach the gospel God unhardens those who he wrote down in his book of life from before the foundation of the world. We teach that those written in God's Book of Life are eternally saved and would never fall away from the faith because God is completely sovreign and keeps them as John 6:37-40 & 10:27-30 teaches.

If you ask somebody who follows Arminian theology they would deny Total Depravity in the first place and would say that anybody who hears the Gospel has the free will to accept it or reject it. And they have the free will to later on reject (or lose) their salvation.

There are Christians who do believe in Total Depravity who would also say yes that God unhardens everybody but sometimes they can fall away by their own free will.

I mean, Christians from a wide variety of denominations believe many different things when it comes to our salvation and just how we are saved.

No matter what the side believes though, we all agree that we should spread the gospel to everyone we meet though. The Calvinist side because you never know who's written in God's book of life (only God knows who will and won't be saved) and the Arminian side for obvious reasons.

The fantasic news though is that God's salvation spreads throughout the entire world from every tribe, people, and nation. (Genesis 22:18, Genesis 28:14, Revelation 7:9) So regardless of how we are saved, the saved are an incountable number from everywhere across the globe as vast as the stars (Genesis 15:5).

Total depravity

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Bραδύγλωσσος αἰπόλος μαθητεύων κνίζειν συκάμινα

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We are saved purely by the work and grace of God.

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We are saved purely by the work and grace of God.

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