Total depravity

[JLB777]

Where does it say "depraved", regarding Abel? Nowhere in my Bible.

Amen.


Nor does it say Cain was totally depraved.

 

[Hammster]

I quoted scripture.


If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.” Genesis 4:7


Does your doctrine teach that Cain was Totally Depraved?



JLB

You are the one making a whole argument from one verse. The Bible doesn’t say that he was regenerate or unregenerate, though Abel is the one mentioned positively in Hebrews 11. But I can say that for at least part of his life he was not saved.

Now, are you going to answer my question?

 

[Hammster]

Amen.


Nor does it say Cain was totally depraved.

Does it say he was saved?

 

[JLB777]

You are the one making a whole argument from one verse. The Bible doesn’t say that he was regenerate or unregenerate, though Abel is the one mentioned positively in Hebrews 11. But I can say that for at least part of his life he was not saved.

Now, are you going to answer my question?

So if Cain was unregenerate and had the ability to do good and rule over sin, then that certainly proves Total Depravity is unbiblical.


Does your doctrine teach that Cain was totally depraved?

Able was declared to be righteous, because of his action of obedience in offering a more excellent sacrifice.


By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous,...
Hebrews 11:4


Noah was declared to be righteous because of the action of obedience to build the Ark and save his family.


By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith. Hebrews 11:7



Abraham was declared to be righteous because of the action of obedience to offer His son Issac on the altar.


Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:21


Many were declared righteous through their acts of obedience; the obedience of faith.


And what more shall I say? For the time would fail me to tell of Gideon and Barak and Samson and Jephthah, also of David and Samuel and the prophets: who through faith subdued kingdoms, worked righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, became valiant in battle, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. Women received their dead raised to life again.
Others were tortured, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a better resurrection. Hebrews 11:32-35


If your doctrine claims mankind is totally depraved then why does the Bible teach us that so many different people were righteous, because they obeyed God.









JLB

 

[JLB777]

Does it say he was saved?

I don’t see where the scriptures say if Cain was saved or not.


What the Bible does say, is Cain had the ability to choose to do good.


Does it say Cain was totally depraved?




JLB

 

[Hammster]

So if Cain was unregenerate and had the ability to do good and rule over sin, then that certainly proves Total Depravity is unbiblical.


Does your doctrine teach that Cain was totally depraved?

Able was declared to be righteous, because of his action of obedience in offering a more excellent sacrifice.


By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous,...
Hebrews 11:4


Noah was declared to be righteous because of the action of obedience to build the Ark and save his family.


By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith. Hebrews 11:7



Abraham was declared to be righteous because of the action of obedience to offer His son Issac on the altar.


Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:21


Many were declared righteous through their acts of obedience; the obedience of faith.


And what more shall I say? For the time would fail me to tell of Gideon and Barak and Samson and Jephthah, also of David and Samuel and the prophets: who through faith subdued kingdoms, worked righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, became valiant in battle, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. Women received their dead raised to life again.
Others were tortured, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a better resurrection. Hebrews 11:32-35


If your doctrine claims mankind is totally depraved then why does the Bible teach us that so many different people were righteous, because they obeyed God.









JLB

It teaches that they were declared righteous by faith. It’s crazy that you can read Hebrews 11 and miss that. It’s how it starts.


For yet in a very little while,
He who is coming will come, and will not delay.
But My righteous one shall live by faith;
And if he shrinks back, My soul has no pleasure in him.
But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul. Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. For by it the men of old gained approval. By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible.
— Hebrews 10:37-11:3

 

[Hammster]

I don’t see where the scriptures say if Cain was saved or not.


What the Bible does say, is Cain had the ability to choose to do good.


Does it say Cain was totally depraved?




JLB

You are confusing the ability to do something with the will to do something. They are not the same thing.

 

[JLB777]

It teaches that they were declared righteous by faith. It’s crazy that you can read Hebrews 11 and miss that.

Each person was declared righteous by their obedience to God’s word, which is how each one receives faith.


This is why it’s called the obedience of faith.


But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26



Obedience is the principle by which faith operates to produce the intended divine result.




JLB

 

[JLB777]

You are confusing the ability to do something with the will to do something. They are not the same thing.

Cain had the ability to do good, and obey God just like Able.


How is that being totally depraved.



Total Depravity is not a biblical term.




JLB

 

[Hammster]

Each person was declared righteous by their obedience to God’s word, which is how each one receives faith.


This is why it’s called the obedience of faith.


But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26



Obedience is the principle by which faith operates to produce the intended divine result.




JLB

You can’t have obedience without faith. You won’t obey someone whom you don’t believe.

 

[Hammster]

Cain had the ability to do good, and obey God just like Able.


How is that being totally depraved.



Total Depravity is not a biblical term.




JLB

I have to say it again?

You are confusing the ability to do something with the will to do something. They are not the same thing.