Total depravity

[dms1972]

Can I ask something else - you say that God unhardens people by the preaching of the Gospel, then everyone is hardened to begin with, but is that the case with little children, is it not the case that people harden their hearts, meaning they were not as hard to begin with? Is there a point beyond which a person cannot be unhardened?

 

[BBAS 64]

Good Day,

Plainly stated:

AS THE SALT FLAVORS EVERY DROP IN THE ATLANTIC, SO DOES SIN AFFECT EVERY ATOM OF OUR NATURE. —CHARLES SPURGEON

IN Him,

Bill

 

[icxn]

...
AS THE SALT FLAVORS EVERY DROP IN THE ATLANTIC, SO DOES SIN AFFECT EVERY ATOM OF OUR NATURE. —CHARLES SPURGEON

That is indeed a very apt metaphor. It merely flavors it, since it is not chemically bonded to it and can therefore easily be separated from it; all you need is the sun. As the warmth of the sun evaporates the water from the salty oceans and raises it to heaven pure, so does the Grace of God purify our nature from sin so that it can nourish (water) our thoughts, words and actions and bring about spiritual growth (think of the water cycle).

 

[Bobber]

All men on earth have sinned. Period. All men sinners. It doesn't matter if your a good "religionist" and mostly follow the rules the point is the same. Your not better in your sin than the serial killer is in his, because all sin is rebellion against God

The SIN of all sins really is he rejecting of LIFE. Jesus is the LIFE that is the eternal nature of God. But while that indeed is the chief sin of all sins by rejecting Christ one commits the deeds of how they sinned will be rolled out at the end of time. There will be different magnitudes of punishment based on what they've done from what I see. Rev 20 :12,13

".... and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works."

And also Luke 12:48

Did you ever wish your wife was more like the neighbors wife? That's coveting... and adulterous.

Let's be careful of this though. Being tempted to think a thought or if a wrong thought flashed into your mind doesn't mean you've sinned. It merely means it's just a thought one needs to cast down and bring into captivity to the word of God. 2 Cor 10:5 So many have been tormented by the evil one making them think they've sinned when they haven't.

People are usually great about appearing righteous, but under the surface they aren't any less a sinner than anyone else, and that is what Adam and Eve brought into the world through their fall, they imparted in their offspring sin and death.

Both ARE sinners. The old man sin nature will keep both separated from God until they identify with Christ (repent) and make an about face declaring Jesus Lordship over their lives. Such breaks them from darkness and puts them into light.

It is because of this, that ALL men, free or slave, Jew or Gentile, are under equal condemnation due to sin. "There is no one righteous, no, not one." According to scripture.

The meaning of total depravity is that man is so depraved in his nature we need a Savior, because on our own we cannot turn to God, or turn from sin .. we are not essentially good, that make some mistakes. We are, to the core of our being, enemies of God, and the Bible calls us so.

It should be noted that many have different ideas of what the scripture is saying about the corrupt nature of man. I most certainly do believe man's nature is corrupt. It's a nature since Adam which has experienced a degeneration. Total depravity the way a Calvinist views it is not in line with what much of Christianity believes.

Dead men don't grab ropes.

And of course you're using a natural analogy of what 'death" means from a physical body perspective and projecting that onto a different spiritual thing. Spiritually dead men still are conscious outside of the physical body so you can know psychical death and spiritual death can't mean exactly the same thing.

 

[Gup20]

I want to ask about this. This is one of the most difficult points of calvinism for me, because if I accept it, will I not just act in a worse way than I would have if I had not heard it? What does the Bible say about this and what does it mean? Jesus said "if you being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly father give good gifts to those who ask him." Matthew 7:11 I wonder if we use the term "evil" differently today, is it not nowadays a term reserved for serial killers and such? Most of us do not like to think of ourselves as evil. Are there degrees of evilness? So what did Jesus mean when he said "if you being evil..." ?

If salvation were direct, then our faith would cause regeneration (as it did with Abraham). However, our salvation is indirect because our faith first causes human adoption. Christ’s righteousness was exchanged with Abraham, then, as sons of Abraham, the second step is we inherit Christ's righteousness according to God’s promise to Abraham that his seed would inherit the righteousness he was given. Therefore, we see salvation is indirect. Human adoption doesn't require spiritual regeneration or mystical power.

Galatians 3:14
in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. 15 Brethren, I speak in terms of human relations: even though it is [only] a man's covenant, yet when it has been ratified, no one sets it aside or adds conditions to it.​

The “human relations” Paul is talking about is the sons of Abraham inheriting the promise of the Spirit. You don’t need to be indwelled by the Holy Spirit for “human relations” or human adoption and inheriting righteousness. In fact, God commands us to make the choice of salvation, and God says it is a choice every human being is capable of making. This command is given three times in Deuteronomy 30, and each time God re-iterates that it is a human choice – a choice set before us. Moreover, God states unequivocally that this human choice is not a choice made in heaven in verses 11-12.

Deuteronomy 30:1
So it shall be when all of these things have come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you call them to mind in all nations where the LORD your God has banished you,

Deuteronomy 30:6
Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live.

Deuteronomy 30:11
For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach.
12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?
13 "Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 14 "But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it.
15 See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity;

Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,​

The most common objection to Deuteronomy 30 comes from those who say this is part of the covenant of The Law and doesn’t pertain to the covenant of faith. However, Paul sets the record straight about the nature of the choice offered by Deuteronomy 30 in Romans 10:

Romans 10:5
For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness.
6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down),
7 or 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)."
8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus [as] Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

Isaiah 28:16
Therefore thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a tested stone, A costly cornerstone [for] the foundation, firmly placed. He who believes [in it] will not be disturbed.​

This human choice in Deuteronomy 30 comes before regeneration, and after one has believed.

Ephesians 1:13-14
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of [God's own] possession, to the praise of His glory.

Acts 11:17
“Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way?”

Ezekiel 36:25-26
25 "Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.​

I don’t think complete free will is Biblical. I think it’s clear that, as it pertains to Salvation, God gives human beings a distinct, binary choice. Choose life or choose death. It does nothing to damage the sovereignty of God to command humans to choose between two options. For example, if I told my child “you can have pancakes or oatmeal for breakfast… but FYI, the pancakes are awesome,” I don’t lose my sovereignty over breakfast. My child cannot, for example, choose steak and eggs. So who determines breakfast – me or my child? I would say I have determined breakfast, and not my child because I have the ingredients for only those two choices. However, so has my child played a role. So who determines salvation – man or God? Yes! Man and God both play a role, but ultimately, we cannot make choices outside of the limited scope God gives us.

Joshua 24:22
Joshua said to the people, “You are witnesses against yourselves that you have chosen for yourselves the LORD, to serve Him.” And they said, “We are witnesses.”

Romans 8:16
The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,
17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.

Deuteronomy 19:15
A single witness shall not rise up against a man on account of any iniquity or any sin which he has committed; on the evidence of two or three witnesses, a matter shall be confirmed.​

As Romans 8:16-17 shows, both God’s spirit and our own spirit must play a role in salvation, just as Deuteronomy 30:19 says God calls heaven and earth as co-witnesses of the choice we make for salvation. One last point I’ll make about Total Depravity is that the Bible says The Law is good. The Bible also says that God has written His law on our hearts, and on the hearts of unbelievers, so that all are without excuse. We cannot be completely and entirely depraved if we have God’s good law written on our hearts so that we know the difference between good and evil. In fact, the very first sin was partaking of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Romans 2:14
For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,​

In regards to Total Depravity, consider this; in the Garden of Eden, God Himself said:

Genesis 2:17
“but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die."

Genesis 3:22
Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”—​

God Himself says man will know and be aware of both GOOD and evil. So if we have the knowledge of good… and as Romans 2:14-15 says, we have God’s good law written on our hearts (even the unsaved gentiles), how can we be completely depraved?

Deuteronomy 30 says that Life and Death (salvation – according to Romans 10) is a choice God sets before us. It is not too difficult for us to make that choice… and it is not a choice made by God in heaven.

 

[StillGods]

Scripture says God says 'Choose this day whom you will serve'.


seems we can choose good if we choose to.
for that reason total depravity doesnt make complete sense to me.



Joshua 24:14-15
English Standard Version
Choose Whom You Will Serve
14 “Now therefore fear the Lord and serve him in sincerity and in faithfulness. Put away the gods that your fathers served beyond the River and in Egypt, and serve the Lord. 15 And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the Lord, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I want to ask about this. This is one of the most difficult points of calvinism for me, because if I accept it, will I not just act in a worse way than I would have if I had not heard it? What does the Bible say about this and what does it mean? Jesus said "if you being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly father give good gifts to those who ask him." Matthew 7:11 I wonder if we use the term "evil" differently today, is it not nowadays a term reserved for serial killers and such? Most of us do not like to think of ourselves as evil. Are there degrees of evilness? So what did Jesus mean when he said "if you being evil..." ?

According to the context of the old testament using the strongs numbers to navigate the word "evil" implies that anything from a slight irritation (spamming is evil!) to genocide can be evil.

Today, we use the word evil to mean it's malevolent and of absolute destructive intent.

So that too is evil, but the sense of what evil is, is similar to what sin is - that being missing the mark.

 

[Hammster]

Scripture says God says 'Choose this day whom you will serve'.


seems we can choose good if we choose to.
for that reason total depravity doesnt make complete sense to me.



Joshua 24:14-15
English Standard Version
Choose Whom You Will Serve
14 “Now therefore fear the Lord and serve him in sincerity and in faithfulness. Put away the gods that your fathers served beyond the River and in Egypt, and serve the Lord. 15 And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the Lord, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord

What were the choices Joshua gave them, and why?

 

[Bruce Leiter]

I want to ask about this. This is one of the most difficult points of calvinism for me, because if I accept it, will I not just act in a worse way than I would have if I had not heard it? What does the Bible say about this and what does it mean? Jesus said "if you being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly father give good gifts to those who ask him." Matthew 7:11 I wonder if we use the term "evil" differently today, is it not nowadays a term reserved for serial killers and such? Most of us do not like to think of ourselves as evil. Are there degrees of evilness? So what did Jesus mean when he said "if you being evil..." ?

Read Romans 1:16--3:20. Paul makes the point that all humans are guilty of sinful rebellion against our holy Creator. The belief in total depravity, based on this and other passages, says that the pollution of sin's guilt and actual sin invaded and pervaded all areas of human life with Adam and Eve's fall. It's the self-centeredness with which humans are conceived and born. Jesus came to make us more and more God-centered. Our total or pervasive depravity should drive us to Jesus as our only escape from God's anger against sin, as Paul says in Romans 3:21 through the end of chapter 11. Then, in the remaining chapters, Paul emphasizes our responsibility in cooperation with and motivated by the Holy Spirit's influences in our lives. He gives us many commands for us to follow in the strength of Jesus' victory, not our own.

 

[StillGods]

What were the choices Joshua gave them, and why?

Scripture also says 'choose life that you might live'. We get to choose life so we might live.

Deuteronomy 30:15-20 King James Version (KJV)
15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;

16 In that I command thee this day to love the Lord thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the Lord thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.

17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;

18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.

19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

20 That thou mayest love the Lord thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the Lord sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

 

[Hammster]

Scripture also says 'choose life that you might live'. We get to choose life so we might live.

That’s not in Joshua. Try again.

 

[Neostarwcc]

Can I ask something else - you say that God unhardens people by the preaching of the Gospel, then everyone is hardened to begin with, but is that the case with little children, is it not the case that people harden their hearts, meaning they were not as hard to begin with? Is there a point beyond which a person cannot be unhardened?

Usually little children will always accept the gospel or whatever thier parents say as truth. It's when they get exposed to the world that's the problem. Some Athiest teacher or professor or Cashier ...etc will make a "convincing" argument to them and they convert away from God. Sometimes temporarily, sometimes permenantly.

I personally also believed in God when I was a child (Not so much Christianity but mostly what my mother told me as a Child. That a God existed and that he would accept me based on my good works. So I used to pray to such God all the time and felt uncomfortable when my mother told me to pray to the Saints or Mary.) I stopped believing in God when I was around 16 or so and became an athiest. I accepted Jesus just a few months before I met my wife when I was 27. I've had permanent faith ever since. But it took one of my best friends from a video game that I played to constantly preach the Gospel to me, and God to get me to finally listen to the truth. I never would have converted without God because I never would have made the "free will" choice to accept God.

 

[Hazelelponi]

And of course you're using a natural analogy of what 'death" means from a physical body perspective and projecting that onto a different spiritual thing. Spiritually dead men still are conscious outside of the physical body so you can know psychical death and spiritual death can't mean exactly the same thing.

I think it is the same, actually. Spiritual death is eternally separate from God. There's a "can't" implied that only God can rectify.

 

[StillGods]

That’s not in Joshua. Try again.

correct it's in Deut 30:19 as was quoted above in #30

God says Choose life that you might live.

 

[JLB777]

I want to ask about this. This is one of the most difficult points of calvinism for me, because if I accept it, will I not just act in a worse way than I would have if I had not heard it? What does the Bible say about this and what does it mean? Jesus said "if you being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly father give good gifts to those who ask him." Matthew 7:11 I wonder if we use the term "evil" differently today, is it not nowadays a term reserved for serial killers and such? Most of us do not like to think of ourselves as evil. Are there degrees of evilness? So what did Jesus mean when he said "if you being evil..." ?

Total depravity is a man made term, not found in the Bible.


In Christ, we have a new nature empowered by the Spirit, so that we can do what we could not do without it... which is to practice righteousness; to walk according to the Spirit.


I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. Galatians 5:16



JLB

 

[StillGods]

Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
Rev 3:20

we get to choose if we will open the door.

 

[Hammster]

correct it's in Deut 30:19 as was quoted above in #30

God says Choose life that you might live.

And I asked about your use of Joshua 24. Why did you not address that?

 

[StillGods]

And I asked about your use of Joshua 24. Why did you not address that?

I am enjoying reading/posting scripture about the choices God gives to people.

 

[Hammster]

I am enjoying reading/posting scripture about the choices God gives to people.

Okay. So why not answer the question?

 

[Hammster]

I am enjoying reading/posting scripture about the choices God gives to people.

Then read this about choice:


as it is written,
“There is none righteous, not even one;
There is none who understands,
There is none who seeks for God;
All have turned aside, together they have become useless;
There is none who does good,
There is not even one.”
“Their throat is an open grave,
With their tongues they keep deceiving,”
“The poison of asps is under their lips”;
“Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness”;
“Their feet are swift to shed blood,
Destruction and misery are in their paths,
And the path of peace they have not known.”
“There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
— Romans 3:10-18