How can satan be already bound without contradicting Revelation 12?

Douggg · Jul 9, 2019

The Righterzpen said:
I think you got your verses confused.

I had wrote - In Revelation 12, the wilderness is where the woman flees to - gets out of Jerusalem.

My point I was making is that "wilderness" means outside of Jerusalem. In Revelation 17, the John saw the woman riding the beast - in the wilderness.

Revelation 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

In Revelation 12, is another instance when wilderness refers to outside of Jerusalem.

6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

In Revelation 12:6, the Jews will have fled into the wilderness when the Abomination of Desolation is setup. And continue to try and get out of Jerusalem during the time, times, half times, of Revelation 12:14.

The woman in Revelation 12 is Israel, and is of course not the same woman in Revelation 17. I was never making that claim.

John the Baptist was another instance of the wilderness meaning outside of Jerusalem.

3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.
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The point I am making is that Jerusalem is not the woman in Revelation 17, because the wilderness where John saw the woman is outside of Jerusalem, based on the examples I show above.

You are making a connection that the woman riding the beast in Revelation 17 is Jerusalem based on the term "that great city". But in Revelation the term "that great city" refers to several great cities - not just one.

DavidPT · Jul 9, 2019

The Righterzpen said:
Well note what the passage says. This happens after the "millennial reign" is over. Right? Isn't the beast suppose to come about at the end of the millennial reign?

How much sense does this really make. You're suppose to have resurrected bodies that can no longer die; and yet people are being martyred?

You are meaning per Premil, right? If so, the beast would already be in the LOF, so none of it would involve the beast. Also per Premil, there are mortals that survive the 2nd coming, thus live during the thousand years as mortals. Nothing nonsensical about this when you think about it, meaning mortals living a thousand years and then some. Adam was mortal, and he almost lived an entire thousand years in this present age. If that can happen in this age, why can't it happen in the next age, except in the next age they manage to live an entire thousand years and then some. The latter meaning in regards to satan's little season

As to these mortal survivors, that is where Zechariah 14 helps us.

Zechariah 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

I don't find it far-fetched for the following to be involving the 2nd coming---and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

And if it does involve the 2nd coming, well there is then the following also in this chapter.

Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

The timing of these things would have to be post this---and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

Obviously none of these survivors can be meaning the saved who put on immortality. These have to be unsaved mortals whom the LORD decided to spare for whatever reasons. And if the timing is post the 2nd coming, well mortals can't live forever. If we then place these things in the beginning of the thousand years, we are already seeing hints of a possible rebellion at some point, the fact some might refuse to keep the feast of tabernacles. Then satan is loosed, manages to deceive many of them by convincing them they can overthrow Christ's one world government that has been ruling the planet the past 1000 years. There is of course speculation on my part, in regards to some of this, yet I can see it maybe playing out like this though.

DavidPT · Jul 9, 2019

The Righterzpen said:
Revelation is a tough book to "crack".

I fully agree. The more I discuss Revelation with others, and observe others discussing Revelation with others, the more I begin to realize exactly what you just said.

Douggg · Jul 9, 2019

The Righterzpen said:
If you take the conventional dating of the book of Revelation being post temple destruction (90 AD ish); from the point of Christ's birth, you have about 13 Roman emperors who rule in that time span. 14 if you count Julius

I disagree with the 90 AD dating of Revelation. There is dispute over whether 60 AD or 90 AD.

Only six kings so far of the Julio-Claudian group. Nero was the last. Julius Caesar was the first of those kings, abeit not an emperor, but the bible does not say "emperor".

The next dynasty were the Flavians. It is a historical fact, which a internet search of Nero last of the Julio-Claudians can easily verify.

Being of the seven is the key indicator that the beast is related to all 7 kings.

10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
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It is not the Herod's.

It is a Roman set of kings, because in Daniel 7 the fourth empire will be in power when the Kingdom of God is brought here to earth, in the time of the ten kings (in Revelation 17) of Daniel 7:23-25 arise, with the little horn person who later becomes the beast.

The person not only has to be connected to the Julio-Claudians in some way, but also has to be a Jew.

Douggg · Jul 9, 2019

DavidPT said:
I fully agree. The more I discuss Revelation with others, and observe others discussing Revelation with others, the more I begin to realize exactly what you just said.

(1) knowing the path of the person, to being the King of the Roman empire, then to being the Antichrist for a while, and ending as the King of the Roman empire.

(2) knowing that Ezekiel 38-39 gives the three part condensed picture of the end times.
that is, Gog/Magog, then the 7 years, then Armageddon at Jesus's return.

(3) knowing that the seals are the overview of the 7 years, and Revelation 6-19 chapters give the details thereof...

Those are the building blocks for putting everything together.
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My interaction with other people regarding eschatology is their misunderstanding is rooted in that they do not understand the concept of the Antichrist because they do not understand the concept of "the" Christ. Mainly because we Christians focus on salvation of the great commission, instead of "the" Christ being the promised great King of Israel descended from David.

We do not think "Christ the King of Israel" coming in the name of the Lord. John 12:12-15. Mark 15:32.

In Jesus is our Salvation, and in His coming our blessed hope. Jesus is King of Kings, Lord of Lords, God Almighty.

Israel, though, has yet to receive Jesus, and are looking for the messiah in a different way - to be the King of Israel.

Cement · Jul 9, 2019

For the many Christians who quote Revelation 12:10 must understand that Revelation deals with both past and future events in a non chronological order. I never understood why people think just because someone is a Christian the devil cannot accuse them of sin just as he accused the righteous people in the old testament.

Douggg · Jul 9, 2019

Cement said:
For the many Christians who quote Revelation 12:10 must understand that Revelation deals with both past and future events in a non chronological order. I never understood why people think just because someone is a Christian the devil cannot accuse them of sin just as he accused the righteous people in the old testament.

Well, the intent of Revelation 12 is not about the church, but Israel.

In regards to Israel, Revelation 12 is in chronological order.

Revelation 12:1-5 is a historic preamble to the rest of Revelation 12 to identify the woman as Israel.

Revelation 12:6-17 is the seven year 70th week, as pertaining to Israel, the woman.

Revelation 12:6 the first half of the 7 years
Revelation 12:7-9 war in (the second) heaven
Revelation 12:10-11 Israel embraces the gospel
Revelation 12:12-17 the second half of the 7 years

ewq1938 · Jul 9, 2019

The Righterzpen said:
Still doesn't explain people being martyred in the "millennial reign".

Hard to explain something that doesn't exist in the first place.

Are they martyred and all the sudden physically raised?

No. They are beheaded during the GT and are raised at the second coming.

I thought the bodily resurrection where believers have received incorruptible bodies has already happened?

No, that is a falsehood of full preterism. The second coming begins, then believers (the saved) will receive immortal bodies. The second coming hasn't happened yet so no one has the incorruptible bodies yet.

And what about the mark of the beast at the end of the millennium?

There is no such thing. The mark only exists during the great trib.

How do you have a mixture of people with glorified bodies and those without living on this earth?

Like when Christ resurrected in his immortal glorified body and walked among mortals? Exactly what do you mean by "how"?

Chris35 · Jul 9, 2019

I dont believe satan is bound at present. He has been disarmed, not bound.

And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the [i]handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.

Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?”[a]

56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Kinda like, if you were judged before God, God would say, this man has lead a good life. The devil would come and say it doesn't matter this man has sinned, therefore he's debt must be paid, so he belongs to me.

Where as now, Jesus can say to the devil, i have paid this man's debt, he now belongs to me, and the devil has no grounds to take him. Hence the authority the devil had, has been given to Jesus. If you reject jesus, well you have to pay your own debt.

Very breif overiew, not looking for a discussion for it, i know it has holes, its a very indepth discussion. Just showing somewhat in what way he was disarmed.

This verse shows that satan was not bound, because people are still blinded to the gospel of Christ. If christ reign started when he died, no one would be blind to the gospel of Christ, and all would know him.

In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

As for satan being bound. The millenium reign has to be a future event. Where christ rules the world instead of satan. It could not of happened yet.

He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is theDevil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.

And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received hismark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for [a]a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

Here is timeline -----
Christ death.

First harvet - those who turn to God now.

Tribulation and second harvest - The pinacle of sin, when the devil is given full power, and everyone needs to choose between God and satan.

Reign of Christ and satan bound for 1000 years

Release of satan, judgement day and the end of sin and the devil for good.

DavidPT · Jul 9, 2019

The Righterzpen said:
@DavidPT Yet getting back to the "souls" under the alter during the millennial reign. If the bodily resurrection for the believers has occurred before the millennial reign, than why are they "souls" under the alter?

Again, the end of Ephesians 1 tells us that Christ started His reign at the resurrection.

Then looking at the language of these "souls" under the alter who are "living and reigning with Christ 1000 years"; they are there because they were martyred. The text is very clear about that.

The first thing is, I'm not on the same page with you about this----the "souls" under the alter during the millennial reign. I don't see that meaning during the thousand years.

Let's think about something though. These are told to rest a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

I would think this little season connects with Revelation 12:17---and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ---which is ultimately referring to what takes place during the 42 month reign of the beast in Revelation 13. IOW while the souls under the altar continue to rest a little season, the 42 month reign of the beast is underway on earth at the same time.

But another point I was wanting to bring out as well, these souls under the altar that are told to rest a little season, I don't see that instead depicting them as sitting on thrones and co-ruling with Christ. Thus none of it actually involves these souls reigning with Christ a thousand years.

Chris35 · Jul 9, 2019

Souls under the alter, is those who have been beheaded during the tribulation. They are told to wait untill the tribulation takes its full course, as there are still more people coming, before the wrath of god.

Kinda like you die in the first year, and you ask God to seek vengance on the world for what they did to you, and God's telling you to wait as there is still more people to come.

DavidPT · Jul 9, 2019

Chris35 said:
Souls under the alter, is those who have been beheaded during the tribulation. They are told to wait untill the tribulation takes its full course, as there are still more people coming, before the wrath of god.

Kinda like you die in the first year, and you ask God to seek vengance on the world for what they did to you, and God's telling you to wait as there is still more people to come.

Good points. I tend to see much of it the same.

Chris35 · Jul 9, 2019

I think your getting confused between the resurrection of Jesus and the first resurrection.

Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

It says, those beheaded, because of thier testimony of Jesus. If Christ's reign started when he died, there would be no people dying for him. It states after the mark of the beast comes the first resurrection.

Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever."

Dave L · Jul 9, 2019

DavidPT said:
Why do you add to Revelation then since you should know better? Anyone living in the real world can easily see that the nations are still being deceived, and haven't ever stopped being deceived, since the time there were even any nations to deceive.

Why so many Christians from all nations? Would God save any but the elect?

lsume · Jul 9, 2019

brightlights said:
Satan is bound today.

Rom.8

[14] For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Eloy Craft · Jul 9, 2019

DavidPT said:
all the saints with thee.

I don't find it far-fetched for the following to be involving the 2nd coming---and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

And if it does involve the 2nd coming, well there is then the following also in this chapter.

I agree. That happened. Remember the graves opening when Jesus died and then again when He resurrected? He took with Him all the saints bound by death. Now in time and history it's a death to life journey happening to the members of His Body. It is yet to be complete in the resurrection of all human bodies at the end of time and history.

Douggg · Jul 9, 2019

Eloy Craft said:
I agree. That happened. Remember the graves opening when Jesus died and then again when He resurrected? He took with Him all the saints bound by death. Now in time and history it's a death to life journey happening to the members of His Body. It is yet to be complete in the resurrection of all human bodies at the end of time and history.

Eloy, that has to be the worst screename image around.

Eloy Craft · Jul 9, 2019

Douggg said:
Eloy, that has to be the worst screename image around.

Eh ummm uh, thanks Doug. You hit the nail on the head.

His look is inspired by this guy's pic. I found on the internet He looks like anger issues personified.

Imagine if he likes talking about Jesus and the bible though. Who'd a thunk?

Many Blessings Doug

MayYouBeBlessed · Jul 9, 2019

DavidPT said:
Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

If verse 1 doesn't involve location, what does it involve then? Obviously, if an angel is seen coming down from heaven, this indicates this angel was initially in heaven, leaves heaven, then travels to a new location. Where is the logical location this angel would likely be coming to? The earth of course. This tells us that is because that is where the angel finds satan residing at the time.

What else does this tell us?

Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Obviously it tells us the initial fulfillment of Revelation 20:1 is meaning a time post the war in heaven, and also post a time satan being cast to the earth at the time. But if not that, thus satan still had access to heaven as of Revelation 20:1, why did the angel need to come down from heaven to bind satan if satan sill had access to heaven in some manner or another?

Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

As soon as satan realizes he hath been cast to the earth, verse 13 is what he initially sets out to accomplish. Then when he ultimately fails at that, verse 17 is then his plan from that point on.

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Where does his initial binding fit in with any of this? Nothing in Revelation 12:12-17 depicts a satan that is bound. All of it is depicting a satan that is loose. Therefore, the only logical place the binding of satan can possibly fit, is after the fulfillment of Revelation 12:12-17.

Obviously Revelation 12:17----and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ---this involves the 42 month reign of the beast in Revelation 13. This tells us satan is initially bound after the 42 month reign of the beast has run it's course. This clearly places the initial binding of satan at the end of this age, and not several thousand years ago instead. And if satan's initial binding has to occur in the end of this age, or better yet, once this age has ended, then so must the same be true of the thousand years of reigning with Christ.

As to the title of the thread then, taking into account what I just submitted, how can satan logically already be bound without contradicting anything in Revelation 12?

BTW, the way it looks to me, it doesn't matter where one places when satan is initially cast to the earth. Some place it 2000 years ago. Some place it in our future still. It still doesn't take away from the fact, that when satan is initially cast to the earth, he is not being depicted as being bound in a pit, he is being depicted as being on the loose. Plus like I also pointed out, all of Revelation 12:12-17 has to be fulfilled first, before satan can even get bound. Nothing in Revelation 12 involves satan's binding. Verse 17 has to conclude with the end of this age being the result eventually.

Satan obeys Hod. Book of Job. So that means he is bound by God.

PROPHECYKID · Jul 9, 2019

DavidPT said:
Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

If verse 1 doesn't involve location, what does it involve then? Obviously, if an angel is seen coming down from heaven, this indicates this angel was initially in heaven, leaves heaven, then travels to a new location. Where is the logical location this angel would likely be coming to? The earth of course. This tells us that is because that is where the angel finds satan residing at the time.

What else does this tell us?

Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Obviously it tells us the initial fulfillment of Revelation 20:1 is meaning a time post the war in heaven, and also post a time satan being cast to the earth at the time. But if not that, thus satan still had access to heaven as of Revelation 20:1, why did the angel need to come down from heaven to bind satan if satan sill had access to heaven in some manner or another?

Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

As soon as satan realizes he hath been cast to the earth, verse 13 is what he initially sets out to accomplish. Then when he ultimately fails at that, verse 17 is then his plan from that point on.

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Where does his initial binding fit in with any of this? Nothing in Revelation 12:12-17 depicts a satan that is bound. All of it is depicting a satan that is loose. Therefore, the only logical place the binding of satan can possibly fit, is after the fulfillment of Revelation 12:12-17.

Obviously Revelation 12:17----and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ---this involves the 42 month reign of the beast in Revelation 13. This tells us satan is initially bound after the 42 month reign of the beast has run it's course. This clearly places the initial binding of satan at the end of this age, and not several thousand years ago instead. And if satan's initial binding has to occur in the end of this age, or better yet, once this age has ended, then so must the same be true of the thousand years of reigning with Christ.

As to the title of the thread then, taking into account what I just submitted, how can satan logically already be bound without contradicting anything in Revelation 12?

BTW, the way it looks to me, it doesn't matter where one places when satan is initially cast to the earth. Some place it 2000 years ago. Some place it in our future still. It still doesn't take away from the fact, that when satan is initially cast to the earth, he is not being depicted as being bound in a pit, he is being depicted as being on the loose. Plus like I also pointed out, all of Revelation 12:12-17 has to be fulfilled first, before satan can even get bound. Nothing in Revelation 12 involves satan's binding. Verse 17 has to conclude with the end of this age being the result eventually.

I don't think I disagree with much of your conclusions but just to tell you what I think it all means. Revelation is a book that is not written completely in order and so the war in heaven that took place in Rev 12:7 most likely took place before Genesis 1:1 or at least not long after the creation of man.

Satan being cast out has some different applications. Rev 12:7 tells us he was cast out of heaven to earth. When mankind fell, Satan became the rightful price of this earth because man submitted to him. That is why Satan is called the price of this world. In Job when different representatives came before God, Satan came among them representing earth. At this time, Satan was still allowed the access to do that and I believe it is because he was the prince of this earth. Adam would have been the one to present himself, he was to be the representative but he fell. The second Adam has to come and succeed where Adam failed to redeem the earth. Consider these verses.

Joh 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Joh 12:33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.

When Jesus died on the cross he became reclaimed the world and became the rightful price and advocate of the world. But it also says at this time that the prince of this world is cast out. This casting out means that now he no longer has any access to heaven and he is now bound to the earth, he has lost the battle over the claims of earth and his defeat is certain. Now in Revelation 5 Jesus presents himself to the father as the redeemer of the earth. He has rightful claim. It is at this time that Satan now has a short time and shortly after begins persecuting the church through the Roman authorities. Shortly after this begins the 42 month (1260 days = 1260 yr) reign of the Sea Beast in Rev 13 (Little Horn in Daniel 7, Kingdom of Iron Mixed with Clay in Daniel 2) during which the church was constantly persecuted.

When you fast forward to Revelation 20, that angel comes down to earth to bind Satan who is on earth and after the 1000 years Jesus recreates the heavens and earth, descends with the new Jerusalem and his saints.

How can satan be already bound without contradicting Revelation 12?

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