Tree Rings a Problem for 6,000 Year Old Earth

Job 33:6 · Sep 21, 2018

pat34lee said:
C14 contamination should be negligible giving
a very old age (for C14 testing, that is.)

.

This doesn't make any sense. The amount of carbon could never be neglidgable if it is recently added through contamination.

Dale · Sep 21, 2018

pat34lee said:
Did you think this through?

C14 contamination should be negligible giving
a very old age (for C14 testing, that is.)

What happens when it gives fairly young ages?

Anyway, if contamination is a problem for one,
it is a problem for all dating methods and sources.

I think you are wasting your time quibbling about dating methods.

If you want to disprove the evolutionary timeline, perhaps you could provide some evidence that dinosaur predators ate horses, for instance. After all, creationists claim that all species had to be there at the beginning since there can be no new species, according to them. We do have some knowledge of what dinosaurs ate, so this is a reasonable request.

Job 33:6 · Sep 21, 2018

Dale said:
I think you are wasting your time quibbling about dating methods.

If you want to disprove the evolutionary timeline, perhaps you could provide some evidence that dinosaur predators ate horses, for instance. After all, creationists claim that all species had to be there at the beginning since there can be no new species, according to them. We do have some knowledge of what dinosaurs ate, so this is a reasonable request.

I think they believe that T Rex ate vegetables. Even though it has serated teeth thay could saw through meat like a knife and jaw muscles that could create a thousand pounds of pressure...it was actually a peaceful vegan, like a goat.

pat34lee · Sep 21, 2018

Dale said:
I think you are wasting your time quibbling about dating methods.

If you want to disprove the evolutionary timeline, perhaps you could provide some evidence that dinosaur predators ate horses, for instance. After all, creationists claim that all species had to be there at the beginning since there can be no new species, according to them. We do have some knowledge of what dinosaurs ate, so this is a reasonable request.

Dinosaurs were known by pretty much every culture
on earth from ancient times right up to recent times.
TrueAuthority.com - Dinosaurs - Dinosaurs In History

The Chinese Year has 11 common animals and a dragon.
Why suppose they would add a mythical animal when it's
more likely that they knew dragons because they lived
with them.

Dale · Sep 21, 2018

pat34lee said:
Dinosaurs were known by pretty much every culture
on earth from ancient times right up to recent times.
TrueAuthority.com - Dinosaurs - Dinosaurs In History

The Chinese Year has 11 common animals and a dragon.
Why suppose they would add a mythical animal when it's
more likely that they knew dragons because they lived
with them.

You are assuming that dragons and dinosaurs are the same thing.

It is possible that the idea of dragons came from dinosaur bones.

If the Chinese remember dragons and the Hebrews and other peoples of the Middle East don't, does that mean that the Chinese are more ancient?

pat34lee · Sep 25, 2018

Dale said:
You are assuming that dragons and dinosaurs are the same thing.

It is possible that the idea of dragons came from dinosaur bones.

If the Chinese remember dragons and the Hebrews and other peoples of the Middle East don't, does that mean that the Chinese are more ancient?

Even if people had seen dinosaur bones, nobody thought of putting
them together until near the end of the 19th century. There was no
way of looking at the bones and seeing this:

Where do you get that the Hebrews and ME people didn't see them?
Behemoth and Leviathan in the bible are dinosaurs. It also mentions
dragons in several places, and not as allegories. Some others here:
Dinosaur History | Street Witnessing

Dale · Sep 26, 2018

pat34lee said:
Even if people had seen dinosaur bones, nobody thought of putting
them together until near the end of the 19th century. There was no
way of looking at the bones and seeing this:
View attachment 241907

Where do you get that the Hebrews and ME people didn't see them?
Behemoth and Leviathan in the bible are dinosaurs. It also mentions
dragons in several places, and not as allegories. Some others here:
Dinosaur History | Street Witnessing

It may take several posts to answer these misconceptions but here's a start.

"Behemoth" as used in the Bible is most likely a hippopatamus.

<< Behemoth or "colossal beast," possibly the hippopatamus. The description given in Job 40: 15 suggests that this was a creature of the Nile and other great river valleys. Job uses him to indicate the amazing creative powers of God. >>
--Harper's Bible Dictionary, 1973

Even if you want to quibble about what "behemoth" is, it is clearly a massive animal, as described in Job, hence the name. It is a vegetarian, not a meat eater. It clearly lives in rivers and marshes. It is not fully a land animal. It is not a predator, and not a fast moving animal.

Always adopt the simplest theory that fits the facts. Start with things that we know exist, with animals that we know were around during recorded history. Try the hippopatamus.

Even if you stretch the behemoth animal in Job to be a dinosaur, it still gives us no reason to think any any similar animal was feared as a predator, or moved swiftly on land. Dinosaurs laid eggs. Job doesn't say anything about Behemoth laying eggs or hatching from eggs.

15 “Look at Behemoth,
which I made along with you
and which feeds on grass like an ox.
16 What strength it has in its loins,
what power in the muscles of its belly!
17 Its tail sways like a cedar;
the sinews of its thighs are close-knit.
18 Its bones are tubes of bronze,
its limbs like rods of iron.
19 It ranks first among the works of God,
yet its Maker can approach it with his sword.
20 The hills bring it their produce,
and all the wild animals play nearby.
21 Under the lotus plants it lies,
hidden among the reeds in the marsh.
22 The lotuses conceal it in their shadow;
the poplars by the stream surround it.
23 A raging river does not alarm it;
it is secure, though the Jordan should surge against its mouth.
24 Can anyone capture it by the eyes,
or trap it and pierce its nose?

--Job 40: 15-24 NIV

pat34lee · Sep 27, 2018

Dale said:
It may take several posts to answer these misconceptions but here's a start.

"Behemoth" as used in the Bible is most likely a hippopatamus.

17 Its tail sways like a cedar;
Do these tails

remind you of this tree?

Dale · Sep 27, 2018

pat34lee said:
17 Its tail sways like a cedar;
Do these tails
View attachment 242018
remind you of this tree?
View attachment 242019

Sources that I have seen say that "tails" really means the penis of the hippopotamus, although that might not preach well on Sunday morning.

pat34lee · Sep 28, 2018

Dale said:
Sources that I have seen say that "tails" really means the penis of the hippopotamus, although that might not preach well on Sunday morning.

No, I think most people, even 3500 years ago, could tell
the difference between a penis and a tail. The following
creatures had tails like cedars, even if after the flood they
didn't grow as large as before it due to shorter life spans.

Dale · Sep 28, 2018

pat34lee said:
No, I think most people, even 3500 years ago, could tell
the difference between a penis and a tail. The following
creatures had tails like cedars, even if after the flood they
didn't grow as large as before it due to shorter life spans.
View attachment 242075

I didn't say that ancient people were ignorant but they did use euphemisms.

Dale · Sep 28, 2018

pat34lee said:
Even if people had seen dinosaur bones, nobody thought of putting
them together until near the end of the 19th century. There was no
way of looking at the bones and seeing this:
View attachment 241907

Where do you get that the Hebrews and ME people didn't see them?
Behemoth and Leviathan in the bible are dinosaurs. It also mentions
dragons in several places, and not as allegories. Some others here:
Dinosaur History | Street Witnessing

As used in the Bible, Leviathan is a sea monster. In an age when people did not know the extent of the sea, or the depth, the sea was a mysterious place. Travel at sea was certainly dangerous. The sea monster, Leviathan, appears to represent both the mystery and the dangers of the sea.

That Leviathan is a creature of the sea is clear from Psalm 104.

25 There is the sea, vast and spacious,
teeming with creatures beyond number—
living things both large and small.
26 There the ships go to and fro,
and Leviathan, which you formed to frolic there.
--Psalm 104: 25-26 NIV

However, Psalm 72 makes Leviathan sound much more like a mythical monster than a real animal. Leviathan represents chaos, danger and perhaps evil. Here the creature Leviathan has multiple heads--two, three, who knows how many, but more than one. This is clearly not a real animal. The crushing of Leviathan by God is a sign that God prevails over all mysteries, that God defeats chaos and evil.

12 But God is my King from long ago;
he brings salvation on the earth.
13 It was you who split open the sea by your power;
you broke the heads of the monster in the waters.
14 It was you who crushed the heads of Leviathan
and gave it as food to the creatures of the desert.
--Psalm 72: 12-14 NIV

The sea monster Leviathan cannot be a real animal, and so cannot be a dinosaur. Likewise, there is no sign of dinosaurs on land in the Bible.

pat34lee · Sep 28, 2018

Dale said:
The sea monster Leviathan cannot be a real animal, and so cannot be a dinosaur. Likewise, there is no sign of dinosaurs on land in the Bible.

I disagree with both opinions. As for Leviathan having multiple
heads, that could be a misspelling or bad translation.

As for land dinosaurs: it's easier to give a link than list all of the
places they are mentioned in the bible.
Dragons mentioned in the Bible | Genesis Park

Dale · Sep 30, 2018

pat34lee said:
Even if people had seen dinosaur bones, nobody thought of putting
them together until near the end of the 19th century. There was no
way of looking at the bones and seeing this:
View attachment 241907

Where do you get that the Hebrews and ME people didn't see them?
Behemoth and Leviathan in the bible are dinosaurs. It also mentions
dragons in several places, and not as allegories. Some others here:
Dinosaur History | Street Witnessing

Many of the references to Leviathan or dragons in the Old Testament are symbolic of powerful rulers, enemies of Israel, both in the present, and in the past. A dragon can symbolize a great ruler or a great nation when they are adversaries.

“Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon has devoured us,
he has thrown us into confusion,
he has made us an empty jar.
Like a serpent he has swallowed us
and filled his stomach with our delicacies,
and then has spewed us out.
--Jeremiah 51:34 NIV

The KJV uses the word "dragon" instead of "serpent," but it is talking aobut the King of Babylon.

34 Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon hath devoured me, he hath crushed me, he hath made me an empty vessel, he hath swallowed me up like a dragon, he hath filled his belly with my delicates, he hath cast me out.
--Jeremiah 51:34 KJV

In this passage we don't need commentary to tell us that the dragon, or serpent, is Nebuchadnezzar.

pat34lee · Oct 1, 2018

Dale said:
Many of the references to Leviathan or dragons in the Old Testament are symbolic of powerful rulers, enemies of Israel, both in the present, and in the past. A dragon can symbolize a great ruler or a great nation when they are adversaries.

He also uses the sun, moon and stars as metaphors,
but that doesn't mean they are not also real, like dragons.
Not every reference to dragons in the bible are metaphor.

Dale · Oct 1, 2018

pat34lee said:
Dinosaurs were known by pretty much every culture
on earth from ancient times right up to recent times.
TrueAuthority.com - Dinosaurs - Dinosaurs In History

The Chinese Year has 11 common animals and a dragon.
Why suppose they would add a mythical animal when it's
more likely that they knew dragons because they lived
with them.

pat34lee said:
Even if people had seen dinosaur bones, nobody thought of putting
them together until near the end of the 19th century. There was no
way of looking at the bones and seeing this:
View attachment 241907

Where do you get that the Hebrews and ME people didn't see them?
Behemoth and Leviathan in the bible are dinosaurs. It also mentions
dragons in several places, and not as allegories. Some others here:
Dinosaur History | Street Witnessing

As I understand it, you are saying that dinosaurs were still around in 1000 BC.
If so, what happened to them? When did they die out, and why?

pat34lee · Oct 1, 2018

Dale said:
As I understand it, you are saying that dinosaurs were still around in 1000 BC.
If so, what happened to them? When did they die out, and why?

Who says they all died out? There are still sightings
of dinosaurs in some remote areas today. Most of the
dinosaurs went the way of other large land-dwelling
animals. They were hunted to extinction levels for
trophies or because they were thought to be evil or
dangerous. Many were probably hunted for body
parts or fluids by those who think such things were
medicinal or aphrodisiacs.
Dragons: Evidence of Recent Dinosaurs

Note what this one says about the first dinosaur fossil
found after they created the name 'dinosaur'.
The Myth of Dinosaurs the Reality of Dragons

dad · Oct 1, 2018

Dale said:
"Bristlecone pine wood that has fallen to the ground can remain intact for thousands of years in the cold, dry climate of the White Mountains. Using a cross-dating technique that overlaps tree-ring patterns of living trees with the still intact patterns of dead wood, scientists have assembled a continuous tree-ring chronology extending nearly 10,000 years."

Link
Inyo National Forest - Nature & Science

If trees grew in 2 weeks in the days of Genesis when the flood happened, then how would tree rings give us such dates?

miamited · Oct 7, 2018

Dale said:
Many creationists insist that the earth should be no more than 6,000 years old. Apparently the idea is that the Second Coming is imminent, and after that there will be the 1,000 Millenial reign, and then the Final Judgment. The world, from creation to Second Coming to Final Judgment will come out to 7,000 years. By this reasoning, the world began around 4,000 BC (Bishop Ussher?) and Noah's Deluge was about 3,000 BC.

The Bible simply doesn't say how old the earth is or how long God intends the earth's history to be. A 6,000 year old earth is an arbitrary idea.

Science is in constant collision with the notion of a 6,000 year old earth.

Take tree rings, for example. How simple can you get?

"Bristlecone pine wood that has fallen to the ground can remain intact for thousands of years in the cold, dry climate of the White Mountains. Using a cross-dating technique that overlaps tree-ring patterns of living trees with the still intact patterns of dead wood, scientists have assembled a continuous tree-ring chronology extending nearly 10,000 years."

Link
Inyo National Forest - Nature & Science

Hi dale,

Just something to consider. Do you believe that when God covered the earth in all the plants that each one was created as a day old germinated seed popping out of the ground? Or, did God sweep his hand across the whole of the dry land and populate it with plants that were mature with seed pods of their own all ready to begin the next generation? Were all of the animals that God created merely day old pups in which there would be no mother to nurture them as we see newborn animals today? Or, were the first animals fully mature as to their kind and able to begin reproducing on their own from the day of their creation?

Were Adam and Eve created as fully mature adults, able to take care of themselves? Or, were they created as day old babies that needed to take 18 years or so to grow into maturity?

God bless,
ted

steve78 · Oct 14, 2018

sdowney717 said:
I suppose if there was a dissagree button it would useless.
For Adam and Eve and all things alive, there was no death till they sinned.

There was no sustaining from the tree of life for Adam and Eve. Man is not allowed to eat after the fall, and we can know they did not eat of the tree of life before the fall as God says if they did they would have lived forever.

.

Nonsense!

God never intended Man to live forever. Death that mentioned to in the bible indicates spiritual death, not physical death.

Its the soul that's immortal.

Tree Rings a Problem for 6,000 Year Old Earth

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