The Bible does not say the Earth Is 7,000 Years Old

[Rev20]

The thing about the tribulation is that people will be thinking peace and safety before the day of the Lord (return of Christ) People will have bought into the fake peace that Satan/Antichrist brings. 70AD has nothing to do with that. Christ did not return. When he does return "all are changed" in an instant at the last trump. The destruction comes with God's wrath after the tribulation. But no one was thinking peace and safety in 70 AD.

Christ said the great tribulation would occur in his generation. I believe him.

The Jews believed they were safe, and the promises (as they interpreted them) were being fulfilled, when Vespasian and his armies departed.

"[T]he Jews considered this skirmish [with the Romans] a great triumph. Caesar as they called the son of Vespasian had been forced to fly! It was, in their eyes, the pledge and promise of their ultimate victory. Titus had not escaped unharmed; he was severely wounded."

"From the Far East, from Antioch and Egypt, Asia Minor and Cyprus, thousands of Jews, confiding in the inaction of Vespasian, had flocked to Jerusalem to celebrate this the last Passover. For the last time worshippers approached the Temple gates singing the usual Psalms of Degrees; for the last time they were welcomed by the greeting, "Blessed be he that cometh in the name of the Lord!" and answered the priests' welcome with the words, "We have wished you good luck ye who are of the House of the Lord!"

[Elizabeth Wormeley Latimer, "Judea from Cyrus to Titus 537 BC-70 AD." A. C. McClurg & Co., 1899, p.345]

Recall:

"Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord." -- Mat 23:39 KJV

Daniel 8:23 "And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and under standing dark sentences, shall stand up."

Daniel 8:24 "And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy People."

Daniel 8:25 "And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand."

I am reasonably certain that Daniel 8:23-25 is referring to the Seleucid Kingdom of Antiochus IV that began in 175 BC and which came out of the four kingdoms that were formed after the great horn of Grecia, Alexander the Great, died.

Many people will believe he is the savior that's how he will deceive most of the world. Revelation states he has horns like a lamb (Christ) but spoke as a dragon (Satan) Paul states Satan is disguised as an angel light and that's going to be his MO. Only those that are prepared will see him for who he really is. That's also why Christ he stated he will come in an hour most are not expecting. Because many will have believed he's already returned. Peace and safety and then bam, destruction. People will be running for cover. That has not happened yet. No one has sat on the throne proclaiming to be God. No one has performed signs and miracles. We are talking real signs and wonders. And if people want to believe a lie God will let them.

The 2nd Beast had two horns like a lamb. Horns in the prophecy of Daniel referred to kingdoms or powers. I doubt if anyone alive today understands much of that section, but I am certain the servants in the seven churches that John sent the book to understood it.

Satan is a liar and great deceiver. His first sin, which is the first sin mentioned in the Bible, was to teach Eve to doubt the Word of God. It is reasonable to assume that is his modus operandi: teaching men to doubt the Word of God.

As aforementioned, the Jews believed there was peace and safety after Vespasian and his armies left.

There were some in the days of Paul who were teaching Christians that Christ had already returned, for example:

"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ [has come]." -- 2Th 2:1-2 KJV

The Thessalonians had been taught by Paul that Christ was returning soon to gather them. When they read that false letter, they believed that they had been left behind. To allay their fears and disappointments, Paul explained that Christ would not return until the Man of Sin (the lawless one) was revealed, and he explained that the Man of Sin was currently being restrained by someone:

"For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming." -- 2Th 2:7-8 ESV

There was a man named Eleazar (the son of the High Priest, and governor of the temple) who took over the temple near the beginning of the war and stopped the daily sacrifice for non-Jews. Josephus said that action "was the true beginning of our war with the Romans; for they rejected the sacrifice of Caesar on this account." See Josephus, "Wars of the Jews." Book II.17.2.

Everything that is easily interpreted points to the return of Christ in that generation. Everything that is not easily understood can be interpreted to mean anything, or as an old sage said, "You can "prove" anything in the Bible."

In Matthew 24, the disciples asks for signs at the end of this world age. That will not happen until he returns. So anything he describes will be about that time period and that generation.

They asked several questions, such as when that age would end and when the temple would be destroyed. Christ said, in all three synoptic Gospels, that they would be fulfilled during their generation.

He will arrive with a trump and his angels will gather his elect. That did not happen in 70 AD.

I have nothing but His Word and history, which I believe. What do you base your belief on?

There are only two advents.

Hebrews 9:28 "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin, unto salvation."

I agree that is exactly what happened. After Satan and his armies are destroyed, we will all stand before his judgment seat.

 

[JulieB67]

What do you base your belief on?

His Word as well.

Again, no one has sat on the throne proclaiming to be God. Satan and his angels have not arrived. No one has performed miracles in the sight of men. If Christ had returned he would be reigning right now. Reigning means to rule. Here in the US, many are moving away from Christianity and so on. He is going to rule with a rod of iron. Again, that is not happening right now. When he returns all the Kingdoms will be his. That didn't happen in 70AD.

"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ [has come]." -- 2Th 2:1-2 KJV

The Thessalonians had been taught by Paul that Christ was returning soon to gather them. When they read that false letter, they believed that they had been left behind. To allay their fears and disappointments, Paul explained that Christ would not return until the Man of Sin (the lawless one) was revealed, and he explained that the Man of Sin was currently being restrained by someone:

It wasn't a false letter they were confused by his first letter. They thought he could return at any time and he then nails down the timing.

Michael is actually the one that is in charge of Satan. Once they do battle Satan and his will be kicked out. That has not happened yet. He's not just some spirit roaming around. Angels have mass, they look just like us.

Satan will mimic Christ. Paul states he is disguised as an angel of light. Christ is our true angel of light. People have to be prepared for that.


As Christ states, if they say Christ is here or there, believe it not. I choose to heed Christ and Paul's warnings.

None of this has happened yet.


“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

t was also about these that Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of his holy ones, to execute judgment on all and to convict all the ungodly of all their deeds of ungodliness that they have committed in such an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things that ungodly sinners have spoken against him.”

Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.

But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.

Revelation 12:10 "And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night."

Revelation 12:11 "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death."

The entire world will be worshipping Satan/the beast, etc. and most likely believing he's the messiah. He will sit on the throne proclaiming to be God and performing miracles to prove that. That has never happened in history.

 

[Rev20]

Again, no one has sat on the throne proclaiming to be God.

You appear to be adding your own words to the scripture. It says nothing about the Man of Sin sitting on a throne.

Satan and his angels have not arrived.

Satan and his angels were kicked out of heaven in the first century when the remnant was still preaching the gospel (Rev 12:17.)

No one has performed miracles in the sight of men.

How do you know? There were lots of wonders and miracles in the first century.

If Christ had returned he would be reigning right now. Reigning means to rule.

The scripture says that Christ began his reign after his ascension to the right hand of God:

"But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool." -- Heb 10:12-13 KJV

"Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him." -- 1Pet 3:22 KJV

"For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet." -- 1Cor 15:25 KJV

Rulers typically have enemies, and Christ is no exception.

Here in the US, many are moving away from Christianity and so on. He is going to rule with a rod of iron. Again, that is not happening right now. When he returns all the Kingdoms will be his. That didn't happen in 70AD.

There are many problems with that interpretation which I will address separately, if you wish.

It wasn't a false letter they were confused by his first letter. They thought he could return at any time and he then nails down the timing.

That is not what Paul said. The Thessalonians were expecting Christ to return soon because that is what Paul had taught them. The letter they received, not from Paul, claimed Christ had already come, which made Paul out to be a liar:

The King James Version mistranslates the last part of this verse, which has confused many:

"That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand." -- 2Th 2:2 KJV

The bold part should read, has come. Examples:

"the day of Christ hath arrived;" - YLT

"the day of the Lord has come." - ESV

"the day of the Lord has come." - NASB

"the day of the Lord has already come." - NIV

"the day of Christ had come." - NKJV

Michael is actually the one that is in charge of Satan. Once they do battle Satan and his will be kicked out. That has not happened yet. He's not just some spirit roaming around. Angels have mass, they look just like us.

Angels are divine, heavenly beings:

"But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels," -- Heb 12:22 KJV

Satan will mimic Christ. Paul states he is disguised as an angel of light. Christ is our true angel of light. People have to be prepared for that.

I am not aware that Satan will mimic Christ, nor that Christ is an angel of light.

As Christ states, if they say Christ is here or there, believe it not. I choose to heed Christ and Paul's warnings.

There were many false Christs in the first century. The Jews were expecting the Messiah (though not in the manner in which he appeared.) Some conmen took advantage by claiming to be Christ, and others believed in their minds that they were Christ. Christ counteracted that by explaining to his disciples that he would not return as a mere man.

None of this has happened yet.

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

t was also about these that Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of his holy ones, to execute judgment on all and to convict all the ungodly of all their deeds of ungodliness that they have committed in such an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things that ungodly sinners have spoken against him.”

All of that was fulfilled in the first century during the generation of Christ. Amazingly, at least to me, two early historians, one Jewish (Josephus) and the other pagan (Tacitus,) mentioned eyewitnesses who saw armed soldiers flying through the air over the cities of Israel about 66 A.D.

Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.

That was Israel's resurrection that occurred during Christ's generation after the great tribulation (Daniel 12:1-2.) Some of the Thessalonians were still alive when they were resurrected (1 Thes 4:14-18.) Paul also expected to still be alive when it occurred.

But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.

This is a better translation:

"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up." -- 2Pet 3:10 KJV

The scripture says the earth abideth forever (Eccl 1:4,) and Revelation 21-22 confirms it by the presence of kings and nations in the new heaven and earth. So it is highly unlikely that Peter intended his words to mean that the physical heaven and earth would be destroyed.

The Greek word for elements in all other usages meant principles and rudiments that the rulers of Israel used to keep the children of Israel in bondage. However, in Jewish "slang" the words heaven, earth, and elements were also names of the temple components: 1) the heaven was the Holy of Holies; 2) the earth and sea were the Courts; and 3) the elements were the earth, sea, air, and fire adornments on temple veils and furnishings. So it is likely Peter was referring to the soon-to-be-destroyed temple, which his audience would have understood.

Revelation 12:10 "And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night."

Revelation 12:11 "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death."[/B]

The entire world will be worshipping Satan/the beast, etc. and most likely believing he's the messiah. He will sit on the throne proclaiming to be God and performing miracles to prove that. That has never happened in history.

That is not what the scripture says.

 

[JulieB67]

You appear to be adding your own words to the scripture. It says nothing about the Man of Sin sitting on a throne.

I Thessalonians 2:4 "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

That has never happened in history.

It was prophesized long ago that this would happen. We aren't talking about some babylon king in the next verse. They had their own gods. They never proclaimed to be God.

Isaiah 14:13 "For thou hast said in thine heart, `I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north

Again, this has not happened yet

These two verses mirror one another.

Satan and his angels were kicked out of heaven in the first century when the remnant was still preaching the gospel (Rev 12:17.)

This isn't just some metaphor or spirits roaming they will actually be here. Again, these two verses are the same event. Hasn't happened yet.

Revelation 2:10 "Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.."

Revelation 12:11 "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death."

The devil is Satan we are told this in verse 12:9.

How do you know? There were lots of wonders and miracles in the first century.

Because it's by these miracles that the entire world will worship this system. Miracles so powerful that if it were possible that the elect would be deceived. That's not happened yet.

Revelation 13:13 "And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men

Revelation 13:14 "And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live."

I am not aware that Satan will mimic Christ, nor that Christ is an angel of light.

II Corinthians 11:14 "And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light."

Transformed in the Greek is disguised. And you don't don a disguise unless eyes will be upon you. And they will be. He was once a morning star but Christ is our true morning star today.

Revelation 22:16 "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star."

Revelation 13:11 "And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon."

Paul states this is why we have the gospel armor for. So if it happens to a certain generation they can stand in that "evil day" and it's not about flesh wars, etc as you are implying.

Ephesians 6:11 "Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil."

Wiles in the Greek is trickery because that's what he's going to be doing.

Ephesians 6:12 Ephesians 6:12 "For we wrestle not against flesh ad blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."

This is not about the destruction in 70AD

The scripture says that Christ began his reign after his ascension to the right hand of God:

He will return to rule the kingdoms with an iron rod. Again, not happened yet. Yes, he is sitting on the right hand of God but his ruling of the nations has not happened yet.

Revelation 2:27 "And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father

.
Matthew 25:31 "When the Son of man shall come in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory:"

Matthew 25:32 "And before Him shall be gathered all nations: and He shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

That is not what Paul said. The Thessalonians were expecting Christ to return soon because that is what Paul had taught them.

Pretty much the same meaning. He's basically stating it's not imminent. That day shall not happen until a falling away and the son of perdition is revealed.

You believe that's happened. I don't. Nero doesn't cut it as the man of sin. He was human, not supernatural, etc.

But we'll see in the end. I don't believe that 70 AD could be classified as the greatest tribulation of all time and I certainly don't believe Christ has returned.

 

[Rev20]

I Thessalonians 2:4 "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

That has never happened in history.

Isaiah 14:13 "For thou hast said in thine heart, `I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north

Again, this has not happened yet

These two verses mirror one another.

Regarding your first quote:

Earlier you implied that the Man of Sin would sit on God's throne. The scripture doesn't say that.

Paul specifically said that the Man of Sin was being restrained when he wrote the epistle:

"Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming." -- 2Th 2:5-8 ESV

If the Man of Sin was to be revealed 2,000 after Paul wrote this epistle, why would the Thessalonians be concerned about that? Of what possible use could that information be to them? Perhaps you believe Paul was writing to you instead of the Thessalonians.

Regarding your second quote, context is again the key. Isaiah's prophecy was about the king of Babylon:

"That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!" -- Isa 14:4 KJV

"In the year that king Ahaz died was this burden." -- Isa 14:28 KJV

This isn't just some metaphor or spirits roaming they will actually be here. Again, these two verses are the same event. Hasn't happened yet.

Revelation 2:10 "Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.."

Revelation 12:11 "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death."

The devil is Satan we are told this in verse 12:9.

The seven churches in Asia were first-century churches. There were exactly seven churches in the Asia province at the time the angel of the Lord instructed John to write a book and send it to their leaders. Some of the churches were being persecuted by the Jews:

"I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan." -- Rev 2:9 KJV

"Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee." -- Rev 3:9 KJV

Jesus said that the Jews who rejected him were not Jews but children of the devil, a.k.a. Satan:

"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do." -- John 8:44 KJV

They were cut-off from the children of Israel, as Peter explained:

"For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people." -- Acts 3:22-23 KJV

Paul said that real Jews were circumcised in the heart, in the spirit (Rom 2:29.) Therefore, the Jews who ran the synagogues in Asia that were not in the spirit were not Jews.

Because it's by these miracles that the entire world will worship this system. Miracles so powerful that if it were possible that the elect would be deceived. That's not happened yet.

Revelation 13:13 "And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men

Revelation 13:14 "And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live."

The elect was the chosen remnant of Israel. When Peter addressed his letters to the elect in Asia Minor, he identified them as the diaspora, that is, the scattered tribes. James wrote to the scattered tribes. When Paul spoke of the elect he was referring to the chosen remnant of Israel, although that is difficult to see by those who have been influenced by the commentaries of men.

The elect was resurrected in the generation of Christ because Christ said they would be.

II Corinthians 11:14 "And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light."

Transformed in the Greek is disguised. And you don't don a disguise unless eyes will be upon you. And they will be. He was once a morning star but Christ is our true morning star today.

Revelation 22:16 "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star."

Revelation 13:11 "And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon."

Paul states this is why we have the gospel armor for. So if it happens to a certain generation they can stand in that "evil day" and it's not about flesh wars, etc as you are implying.

Ephesians 6:11 "Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil."

Wiles in the Greek is trickery because that's what he's going to be doing.

Ephesians 6:12 Ephesians 6:12 "For we wrestle not against flesh ad blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."

This is not about the destruction in 70AD

The New Testament is loaded with themes of the imminent return of Christ, and Jesus himself said in several different ways that he would return within his generation, not some future generation.

The gospels and letters were speaking to real people in real-time. The Word of God is profitable to all, but if we ignore the audiences to which the letters were addressed and apply them to our own time, which has been the case over the centuries, then the Bible means whatever contemporary biblical scholars want it to mean. Why people choose to ignore what is written in favor of the continuously evolving doctrines of mere men is a mystery to me.

He will return to rule the kingdoms with an iron rod. Again, not happened yet. Yes, he is sitting on the right hand of God but his ruling of the nations has not happened yet.

Revelation 2:27 "And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

The scripture states that Christ has been reigning since his ascension to the Father. He was sitting in the Father's throne when he spoke to John on Patmos.

"To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne." -- Rev 3:21 KJV

Jesus also said that he would delegate to others the power to rule over the nations - the power that he had already received from the Father:

"And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father." -- Rev 2:26-27 KJV

That is consistent with the prophecy of Daniel:

"the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever." -- Dan 7:18 KJV

"Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom." -- Dan 7:22 KJV

Matthew 25:31 "When the Son of man shall come in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory:"

Matthew 25:32 "And before Him shall be gathered all nations: and He shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

Jesus said that some in one of his audiences would still be alive when he returned in his kingdom:

"For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." -- Mat 16:27-28 KJV

Ideologically-driven biblical scholars have jumped through all sorts of hoops to explain that away. LOL!

Paul said something similar:

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." -- 1Th 4:16-17 KJV

Why would Paul say that to the Thessalonians unless he expected some of them to be alive when Christ returned? Was Paul deceived or a deceiver, or did the Holy Spirit teach Paul things to come?

"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come." -- John 16:13 KJV

Pretty much the same meaning. He's basically stating it's not imminent. That day shall not happen until a falling away and the son of perdition is revealed.

You believe that's happened. I don't. Nero doesn't cut it as the man of sin. He was human, not supernatural, etc.

But we'll see in the end. I don't believe that 70 AD could be classified as the greatest tribulation of all time and I certainly don't believe Christ has returned.

Again, Paul specifically said that the Man of Sin was being restrained when he wrote the epistle:

"Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming." -- 2Th 2:5-8 ESV

I agree that Nero was not the Man of Sin. The Man of Sin was probably Eleazar (son of Ananias the high priest) who took away the daily sacrifice by foreigners, undermining the temple's tradition as a house of prayer for all nations. As aforementioned, Josephus explained why that was the beginning of the war with Rome that led to the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple and the empire-wide slaughter of over a million Jews.

 

[JulieB67]

Paul specifically said that the Man of Sin was being restrained when he wrote the epistle:

Once he is not restrained, he will sit in the temple proclaiming to be God. That is written.

II Thessalonians 2:4 "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

f the Man of Sin was to be revealed 2,000 after Paul wrote this epistle, why would the Thessalonians be concerned about that? Of what possible use could that information be to them? Perhaps you believe Paul was writing to you instead of the Thessalonians.

No one knows the day or hour but we are to know the signs that Christ laid out and that's exactly what the disciples/apostles later taught as well no matter what generation. To them it was certainly possible and it still is. That's why every generation should be watchmen.

Regarding your second quote, context is again the key. Isaiah's prophecy was about the king of Babylon:

There are scriptures in the OT that have double meanings and point to Satan. This is one of them. He is the king of Babylon of the end times so to speak. And no Babylon king ever sat in the temple to the sides of the north. They woshipped their own gods, and never sat upon the mount of congregation. This is future prophesy because it states "also sit on the sides of the north"

Isaiah 14:12 "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!"

This identifies him -son of the morning. Angel not some human babylon king

Isaiah 14:13 "For thou hast said in thine heart, `I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:"

Satan placing himself above God. -And he will sit upon the mount of congregation, in the sides of the north. Again, that's never happened in history.

Isaiah 14:14 "I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the MOST HIGH."

II Thessalonians 2:4 "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

Isaiah 14:15 "Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit."

This identifies this as being Satan as well.


Revelation 20:1 "And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

Isaiah 14:16 "They that see thee shall shall narrowly look upon the, and consider thee, saying. "Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;"

Angels are often called men in the bible and this is no different. But we see he will deceive the nations but just like Isaiah prophesized he will be taken to the pit.

For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." -- Mat 16:27-28 KJV

Because they would see him in his glorified body. Judas wouldn't because he did die. They also saw him transfigured with Moses and Elijah. But when we take the bible as a whole, it's obvious he has not returned with his angels, 10 thousands of his saints, gathered his elect and so on. These saints would have glorified bodies and it's impossible that's already happened.

Why would Paul say that to the Thessalonians unless he expected some of them to be alive when Christ returned?

Because again, no one know the day or the hour but one must be prepared regardless.

 

[Neostarwcc]

Really? So I take it you take Matthew's account of everybody who was born from Abraham to Jesus as a not complete list? Or better yet we have Luke's account which gives a COMPLETE geneology backwards from Adam to Jesus to which all scholars agree, existed around 2,000 years ago? Matthew also said that there were 77 TOTAL generations from Adam to Jesus which Luke completely proved in his geneology account so either Jesus's descendants must have lived for millions of years which sounds more absurd than taking Mark and Matthew's words as they were meant to be taken or they're a complete 77 generation family tree from Adam to Christ and they lived for as long as scripture says they lived.

The Bible says all over the place that the universe is not billions of years old and I just gave you one example. So, let's take this one biblical example at a time.

 

[JulieB67]

Or better yet we have Luke's account which gives a COMPLETE geneology backwards from Adam to Jesus to which all scholars agree, existed around 2,000 years ago? Matthew also said that there were 77 TOTAL generations from Adam

Many of us that believe the earth is old are talking pre adamic. And that the geneologies from Adam to Christ are just that -his bloodline.

We believe the in the beginning God created and the heaven and earth period. And then the earth "became" void and without form. However long that time period was is not certain. But that when God said "let their be light' he was starting again with this present age which starts day one.