{MOVED} Giving up, considering posting this on FB. Really need help right now.

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... I do love the people who genuinely loved me, but what's hard is knowing that I love the people who don't love me, ...

And as the Bible tells, disciples of Jesus (“Christian”) should love, even if they are not loved back.

But I tell you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who mistreat you and persecute you, that you may be children of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the just and the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Don't even the tax collectors do the same? If you only greet your friends, what more do you do than others? Don't even the tax collectors do the same? Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.
Matt. 5:44-48

It would be nice to know why they rejected you. But I don’t think it should be taken too heavily, if some people don’t accept all people. Not all people like all people and I think people should be free in choosing their friends.

Perhaps it is also better for you to seek some other company. Usually only person you can change is yourself. That is why I usually try to think, have I done something wrong or something that was not nice and could I do something better.
 
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Mountainmanbob

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True Christian churches do not act like the ones you attended.

That is a true fact. I have attended several different Christian churches in my lifetime and have never encountered such a thing.

Keep looking the right church is out there for you.

M-Bob
 
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quintessentialramble

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And as the Bible tells, disciples of Jesus (“Christian”) should love, even if they are not loved back.

But I tell you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who mistreat you and persecute you, that you may be children of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the just and the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Don't even the tax collectors do the same? If you only greet your friends, what more do you do than others? Don't even the tax collectors do the same? Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.
Matt. 5:44-48

It would be nice to know why they rejected you. But I don’t think it should be taken too heavily, if some people don’t accept all people. Not all people like all people and I think people should be free in choosing their friends.

Perhaps it is also better for you to seek some other company. Usually only person you can change is yourself. That is why I usually try to think, have I done something wrong or something that was not nice and could I do something better.

Once again, I asked if I had done something to hurt anybody, he said he didn't feel slighted in any way. He mentioned the prodigal son and how the father let his son go and when his son returned, the father embraced him. I will not be so nice if she returns.
Also, I'm really not on board with people saying it's ok to end friendships biblically.
First of all, Proverbs 28:1 says do not forsake your friends.
Secondly, the Bible refers to christians in a more intimate way than friendship - brothers and sisters, which is actually CLOSER than friendship.
Thirdly. The Bible makes it clear that when we have an issue with a brother or sister, we go and we work things out, if the won't listen, bring another, if still, tell the elders, if still, tell the church. How much more clearer do we need to be that we keep unity?
Fourthly, Jesus said he calls his disciples his friends. If we are to be Christlike, then we should also maintain friendships with followers of Christ. "Love also as I have loved you." Jesus never breaks relationship with us unless we break relationship with him, and even then he will welcome us back.
There is virtually zero evidence pointing to biblical breakups of friends, marriages, or families.
In fact, this book Boundaries that started this end friendship movement, has two VERY big flaws:
The author tells married couples to get divorced (in one case after speaking to ONLY the husband for 5 minutes), criticizes less fortunate people and puts boundaries on poor people, uses one Bible verse for all of his sermons, that has very little to do with boundaries, and when asked if he could present a Bible verse about boundaries, said he could not provide one. He also made the same Boundaries book in a non-christian version for psychologists before he brought it to the church, and is manipulating christians into buying his book with his boundaries belief.
I get that there are abusive relationships, rape, stuff like this, and I'm not suggesting anyone stay in that relationship, but I would question if that abuser or rapist was really a follower of Jesus, and that makes the entire difference.
God doesn't call you to end friendships unless there is some serious spiritual sin going on. He puts people in your life for a reason, and it isn't to reject them.
God calls you into a family, do you get that, a family? And the reality is, a family is bound together forever.
 
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1213

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God calls you into a family, do you get that, a family? And the reality is, a family is bound together forever.

But in what way they are bound? I think there should also be freedom and space for different people.
 
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Mountainmanbob

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Once again, I asked if I had done something to hurt anybody, he said he didn't feel slighted in any way. He mentioned the prodigal son and how the father let his son go and when his son returned, the father embraced him. I will not be so nice if she returns.
Also, I'm really not on board with people saying it's ok to end friendships biblically.
First of all, Proverbs 28:1 says do not forsake your friends.
Secondly, the Bible refers to christians in a more intimate way than friendship - brothers and sisters, which is actually CLOSER than friendship.
Thirdly. The Bible makes it clear that when we have an issue with a brother or sister, we go and we work things out, if the won't listen, bring another, if still, tell the elders, if still, tell the church. How much more clearer do we need to be that we keep unity?
Fourthly, Jesus said he calls his disciples his friends. If we are to be Christlike, then we should also maintain friendships with followers of Christ. "Love also as I have loved you." Jesus never breaks relationship with us unless we break relationship with him, and even then he will welcome us back.
There is virtually zero evidence pointing to biblical breakups of friends, marriages, or families.
In fact, this book Boundaries that started this end friendship movement, has two VERY big flaws:
The author tells married couples to get divorced (in one case after speaking to ONLY the husband for 5 minutes), criticizes less fortunate people and puts boundaries on poor people, uses one Bible verse for all of his sermons, that has very little to do with boundaries, and when asked if he could present a Bible verse about boundaries, said he could not provide one. He also made the same Boundaries book in a non-christian version for psychologists before he brought it to the church, and is manipulating christians into buying his book with his boundaries belief.
I get that there are abusive relationships, rape, stuff like this, and I'm not suggesting anyone stay in that relationship, but I would question if that abuser or rapist was really a follower of Jesus, and that makes the entire difference.
God doesn't call you to end friendships unless there is some serious spiritual sin going on. He puts people in your life for a reason, and it isn't to reject them.
God calls you into a family, do you get that, a family? And the reality is, a family is bound together forever.

I need to love everybody but, I do not have to like them. I asked that question of a pastor we had many years ago. After some study he told me that would be correct.

It's been working for a long time now.

Actually one guy who I did not love or care for very much I started loving even though it was hard. By golly in time I actually learned to even like him (a little.)

Another small step up top the mountain.

M-Bob
 
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quintessentialramble

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I need to love everybody but, I do not have to like them. I asked that question of a pastor we had many years ago. After some study he told me that would be correct.

It's been working for a long time now.

Actually one guy who I did not love or care for very much I started loving even though it was hard. By golly in time I actually learned to even like him (a little.)

Another small step up top the mountain.

M-Bob

Well...maybe...but isn't it a lot easier to love someone if you like them?
If we're compared to as brothers and sisters, then I would look to how life was with my biological brothers and sisters. Do I love them? Absolutely. Do I like them? Most days. Do I like everything they do? Not exactly.
Also, Jesus said calls us his friends, shared meals with very "toxic" people and was judged by the religious leaders...Jesus corrected people's behavior, but still called them friends. I think there's a difference there.
 
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Mountainmanbob

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Well...maybe...but isn't it a lot easier to love someone if you like them?
If we're compared to as brothers and sisters, then I would look to how life was with my biological brothers and sisters. Do I love them? Absolutely. Do I like them? Most days. Do I like everything they do? Not exactly.
Also, Jesus said calls us his friends, shared meals with very "toxic" people and was judged by the religious leaders...Jesus corrected people's behavior, but still called them friends. I think there's a difference there.

True story
My neighbor infringed on my property line which goes directly against what is stated in the Bible. Got to love him but, for a while I truly did not like him.
M-Bob
 
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quintessentialramble

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True story
My neighbor infringed on my property line which goes directly against what is stated in the Bible. Got to love him but, for a while I truly did not like him.
M-Bob

could you reference this bible verse that says not to infringe on your property line?
 
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Mountainmanbob

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Original Happy Camper

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He taught a book called boundaries by cloud and Townsend. I discovered numerous articles about people hurt by the books teachings and how they encouraged people to divorce after only one 5 minute phone conversation with one person. So I tried bringing this to both pastors attention to see if they could give me some biblical backing to boundaries.

It does not appear as though these pastors are teaching from the word of GOD but rather from the words of man.

The Lord may be leading you away from false teaching. Look for a church that preaches from the Word of GOD not from some mans writings that interdict the Bible.

AND THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE
 
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quintessentialramble

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Ok, here are a few notes, some problematic, some agreeable:
1. "This is logical. Even God made boundaries, as He declared in Genesis 1:9,

And God said, "Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear." And it was so."
-
This is not a boundary, it is a geographical separation to indicate two different types of terrain. God separates land and sky, he doesn't forbid people from walking or flying on His land or sky. There is no trespass involved.

2. And again in Jeremiah 5:22

I placed the sand as the boundary for the sea, a perpetual barrier that it cannot pass;
Same argument as before, but also, sand and water from the sea often mix and actually feel quite good. Also, God does not forbid His people from walking on the sand or from swimming.

3. In Hosea 5:10 we read,

"The princes of Judah have become like those who move a boundary; On them I will pour out My wrath like water."

Moving a boundary stone was a serious, serious offense. It is mentioned several times in Deuteronomy and also on Proverbs,

"Do not move your neighbor's boundary stone set up by your predecessors in the inheritance you receive in the land the LORD your God is giving you to possess." (Deuteronomy 19:14)

"Cursed is anyone who moves their neighbor's boundary stone." Then all the people shall say, "Amen!" (Deuteronomy 27:17)

"Do not move the ancient landmark that your fathers have set." (Proverbs 22:28)

-The reason this is an offense that they compare to practically theft, is that they're tampering with someone else's property. It's almost as bad as being a thief. So in this regard, I can agree with you, and this is the strongest point for respecting boundaries. However, this physical property violation does not equate to relational and emotional boundary setting, so far as I can see.

4. "Boundaries are there for a reason, and usually there is no need to move them or change them. They alert people as to where to go, and not go. They divide one thing from another thing. Notice the excoriation for those who cunningly and secretly move boundaries. People who do that are the worst of the worst, because you are literally messing with their livelihood. "
Keyword: Divide. Firstly, let's take ground and sky. At what point do they divide? They sky is actually an infinite expanse, that happens to contain within it the earth. So actually, it isn't even a boundary, Technically speaking, the sky encompasses the earth. Second, sand and sea. The bottom of the sea is filled with sand. There really isn't a boundary because they are actually intermingled. Furthermore, there is scientific evidence showing that water seeps into the ground to provide sustenance for plants to grow. Furthermore, water evaporates from the sea into the clouds, and then rains on the ground, so this would be a violation of the boundary, and you would have to say that God is violating his own boundaries, and thus you would call God a sinner in doing so.
Thirdly. Divide. When it comes to relationship, it is absolutely clear the Bible instructs us to not have divisions within the church.
"10 I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment. 11 For it has been reported to me by Chloe's people that there is quarreling among you, my brothers. " - 1 corinthians 1:10-13
We all make mistakes. In the case of this man who trespassed, it is one offense, the Bible instructs you to go to the man and work it out between the two of you, if he listens great, if not, bring another along, if he doesn't, tell the elders, if he still doesn't, then ok. I'm also curious as to if he is a believer or not, because if he isn't a believer, it isn't fair to hold him accountable to a biblical standard he isn't aware of, but is breaking the law. if he was a fellow churchgoer and felt like he had a close relationship with you maybe he didn't see anything wrong with it.
If you never talked to this guy before and he's going on your property, then yes, that's a whole different story, and you do need to protect yourself. context is very important here.

5. The author finishes his article with a reference to Star Trek, not the New Testament, and this is vital. In the Old Testament, people only knew rules, they didn't know the grace and forgiveness of Jesus Christ. Seriously, think about it. A dad is watching his uneducated son Peter be approached by a strange man who asks him to follow him. At this point there isn't a lot known about Jesus other than he was a carpenter. This would probably cause any normal person to set a boundary, right? Jesus was about breaking down barriers, not putting more up.

In short, there is virtually nothing about relational boundaries in this article, and is entirely based on property boundaries, and pretty poorly at that.

The Bible DOES say to avoid foolish controversies and quarrels...but who is to decide what is a foolish controversy? Keeping the unity of the church is not a foolish controversy, it is actually very wise. Someone sincerely asking you to explain boundaries, that the church is teaching, is not a foolish controversy, it is a sign of respect and wisdom.
It is not the healthy that need a doctor, it is the sick, the church isn't for people who think they're better than other people, it's for people who know they aren't and are in need of grace and mercy and want to love others because God loves them, and God's love doesn't have any boundaries, and if we are to reflect God's love, then neither should ours.
 
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Amittai

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I think the passage in Mt 5 applies to people of whatever degree of closeness. It gives a principle which should be applied in ways that look different.

Other's minds and personalities IS their property.

True love does work, totally at the discretion of others. God's power in you can receive it as such.

I was heavily traumatised from situation A, and when I went to church B and started warning them about how they could help me help them in their own gormlessness (I didn't call it that to their faces), they didn't catch on. Now church B has fallen apart, as I expected, not mainly because of me, but because of their gormlessness. If they hadn't been gormless, out of 200 members there would have been a handful willing to make occasional suggestions to me towards kindly "sorting myself out". My lesson is to place Jesus higher than them and to trust Him on ordinary, puzzling days.

We are each at the middle of the barrel. Against some of those we mix with, we lag behind them in some ways.
 
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Pain is a part of life. Whether it occurs through church, at home, or close relationships. We will hurt and disappoint each other at some point.

Our response to pain differs. Some bounce back swifter than others. Many are wrestling with issues in addition to the bumps and bruises they’ve encountered. Healing is a must. But everyone you meet isn’t equipped to address your hurts in the proper fashion. Many make it worse.

Inaptitude isn’t unloving. If you are struggling in areas they lack the gifting or knowledge to address you’re better served by asking for prayer instead of forcing the issue. Demands don’t enkindle hearts. It repels.

You can’t force others to walk with you. Or make them be your friend. And why would you want to? I think authentic connections are best where both parties are mutually invested. If the other has no interest. Leave them alone and find someone who does.

~Bella
 
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Ronit

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So this is going to be a tough topic. For the past 14 years I've considered myself a Christian/believer in Jesus. My story is probably unlike any other story you've ever heard. But the problem is it's also exactly like every other story you've ever heard. I want to be careful what I say here, because the truth is, there are some Christians out there who are extremely loving unconditionally. But the vast majority are just people who hurt people, don't accept that they are in fact hurting and harming people.
From the first week I walked into a church this has been true.
The very first week I walked into a church, my only Christian friend told me there was nothing in the Bible that said we have to be friends (which actually isn't true: Do not forsake your friend or a friend of your family, and do not go to your relative's house when disaster strikes you-- better a neighbor nearby than a relative far away. Proverbs 28:10; “Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother or sister has something against you, 24 leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to them; then come and offer your gift. - Matthew 5:23). I asked this person if I had done anything wrong, and she said no, I was just being myself. So I have done nothing wrong but must be excluded.
A lot of people quote Romans 12:8 saying as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone, in order to justify ending friendships, for whatever minor or major reason they have, no matter how small or big. but notice the difference in context. In Matthew, Jesus is speaking to believers. In Romans, Paul is talking about non-christian Roman soldiers trying to kill Christians. Very big difference.
So I took a hit, somehow I still kept going. This was the first week, and already experienced the hate, I tried the whole "forgiving without reconciling thing" because apparently that's the Christlike thing to do.
I'll be honest...college was probably one of the better times when it came to church and church events. I'm not really sure why. But I did see one thing that made an incredible difference and did give me hope. Our campus crusade on some nights would contain catholics, mormons, presbyterians, pentecostals, all different denominations. The division that so many people raged against was just gone.
But when I went back home, things weren't so crystal clear. I began trying out other churches. The first church I went to in this period, I was met by a former coworker, who came up to me and said I should leave and find a different church. I asked if I had done anything wrong. Still no answers.
So I did, I found another church. I had been dating a girl and found out she cheated on me, so I yelled at her. And even then I tried blaming myself and apologizing and reconciling. In this case it was even brought to the pastor and apparently she said she would leave if I continued going there, and the pastor said even though he agreed with me, asked me to leave until she left and then I could come back.
So I left and found another church. This church quite frankly seemed fantastic. Everybody was loving caring. They encouraged me to get involved, serve, and I did, and this all went on for years, without a hint of negativity. When it all came crashing down. When in fact the pastor's own family came to me, called me barely tolerable, and when I tried to work things out was told my feelings are not their "responsibility." Well actually...let's think of an example. If someone is driving recklessly, and damages your property, whose responsible? The owner, or the reckless driver? The driver is the one who is LIABLE, right? So when you leave emotional scars on someone, it actually is entirely your responsibility to fix it. I tried reaching out to both pastors to get an explanation for some biblical support for their boundaries belief, genuinely wanting to give them a chance. I was ignored. I asked them this because I discovered articles proving the authors of boundaries encouraged people to get divorced within 5 minutes of talking to one person, and making fun of less fortunate people.
And this was the final straw for me. If you can't love the emotional person whose only issue is he wants to be loved and accepted, then you sure as heck you can't love the atheist, the drunk, the drug addict, or anyone else. Because here's the harsh truth: That person might be transformed, and stop drinking let's say. But the minute you reject him from your life, guess where he's right back to? Drinking. If someone's issue is they want to be loved by the church, and the church can't love that person, then what are you even doing?
So this is my way of saying I no longer wish to be associated with Christians. I'm still on the fence about whether or not I believe in God/Jesus, but the pain and damage caused to me by the church over the years has been more than enough reason to stop going. Maybe my boundary needs to be the church itself.
And please understand, there are a few of you who have been incredible, please understand that, like anything else, there are exceptions to this, and you probably know who you are and please know that this is not really directed at you. I do love the people who genuinely loved me, but what's hard is knowing that I love the people who don't love me, but I can't put myself in a position knowing you're actively telling people God loves them while still hating someone who genuinely loved you.
I'm sorry this has happened to you. Hold tight to Jesus Christ not people
 
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