Controversial Tithing Debate

[Sabertooth]

The promises of Malachi 3 apply to the specific practice of tithing which is a defined percentage.
Greed [love of money] vs. generosity is a separate issue, above that.

 

[ARBITER01]

Nah…ain’t gonna follow Moses either. I don’t think the Holy Spirit showed you a thing….because the reasoning behind it don’t make a lick of sense.

I know one thing…there’s a lot of church pastors trying to convince there flock to cough up 10% of their spoils because Abraham did the same thing ONCE.

Man I don't know what it is currently, but I keep running into these church haters on this site lately.

I have no problem following The Holy Spirit and giving around 10% or more of my money on each sunday, but if you do, hey I could care less, I have my own salvation to be concerned with, not yours.

Laters.

 

[com7fy8]

I think he cares more about the attitude of my heart when giving than how much I give (%). If I give 10% right on, but do it with a begrudging heart, he probably doesn't accept the tithe as genuine. If I give him 2% but with a cheerful and glad heart, he will accept it as sincere, but He still would expect me to put more faith in Him through tithing.

The tithe was from food items and used to feed the tither at an assembly, and ministerial people and needy.

But things such as gold and jewels and animal skins were freely given for making religious clothimg and structures. The Jews got such materials from the Egyptians.

So, I see that the tithe is for essential provision, while additional offerings are for structural stuff and building bills and operational expenses.

And I don't know of any group who uses tithes only for feeding ministerial and needy people and the tither during special gatherings.

So, I pray for God to have me do what He wants. And I see churches making good use of whatever they get. And people can make sure they send money to rescue organizations so the needy get help and missionaries get support.

 

[MForbes]

Man I don't know what it is currently, but I keep running into these church haters on this site lately.

I'm not a church-hater. What I don't like are churches and pastors that use the bible to try and justify their extra-biblical stances and beliefs.

 

[returntosender]

It's hard for me to understand why anyone questions giving to God. Where would we be if he questioned giving to us? Just like following his words. Why do we question this one? Seems to me it's a stingy thing. No offense if you don't fall in this category. Many posts on this subject causes my response.
Blessings

 

[Strong in Him]

Some people believe in literal tithing which is to give 10% of your income to God.

It may be literal, it's not Biblical.
In the OT the tithe was always food - unless 10% of your crops was too heavy to carry, then it was sold and exchanged for money. Once at the temple the money was used to buy more food and folk ate their tithe!

So here is a question I have specifically about giving "tithing" to your church.
Is there anything wrong with giving to your church in the form of "good works/generosity"
and not financially? So for example, let's say I don't want to give the church $200 a month
but I'd prefer to give them $80 a month and the other $120 I'll give to the church in the form
of paying it forward like taking people out for lunches/dinners, treating them with food,
snacks, gifts, and driving people to and from places so spending gas money and time etc.

Would you say this is acceptable form of tithing or do you think tithing should be specifically
monetary and then doing charitable acts is just bonus and out of your own good heart?

I don't agree with tithing - or, at least, giving 10% is fine as long as people don't claim that that is following Scripture and try to impose it on others.
The deaconess at my childhood church did exactly as you have suggested.

But the NT pattern of giving was either to give everything, or as much as you have decided, before God.

 

[Richard T]

It's too bad that the emphasis is generally on just tithing ten percent. The literal tithe is difficult to determine. What exactly counts? Inheritances? gifts? capital gains? Is it before or after taxes? If i make 100,000 thousand on a home sale, do I tithe that? An accountant subtracts out expenses, an economist would subtract out inflation. At the end of the day to buy another home you likely have not made anything because other homes are equally expensive. What about the extra tithes, an extra tenth every third year? Many believe the law requires 23.33 % to be a more literal tithe.

I prefer a balance with the accountability of ministers. Too many are like Eli's sons, demanding too much and abusing their position. Malachi 3 was a specific group with a specific word, many do not generalize such scriptures for NT believers out of context. Paul's example would have ministers err the opposite way as he preferred not to be a burden. This in no way means someone should be close fisted. The principle of giving is throughout the bible. If Jesus is Lord, then all my resources should be his. Giving requires close fellowship with God, no unforgiveness, no lack of love, and the Holy Spirit should direct. I do have a general rule I try to be aware of. I give to whatever makes the most impact, and often that impact will be the praise that goes to God as a result of giving a blessing. I often am in developing nations though, so I rarely need to consider much beyond basic needs.

In my study on tithing I read where over 50% of seminary students in a survey had guilt from a lack of tithing. I once counseled a woman whose church was so tithe oriented that the financial burden gave her thoughts of suicide. That's bondage of condemnation, not the freedom that Jesus preached. Sow abundantly or sparingly is left up to you. What do you want to reap? Where is the money the best seed is your responsibility too.

Can you still have nice things and be prosperous? Absolutely, but tithing is not required for that.

 

[Llleopard]

Here's some thoughts. Personally, an amount of my wages goes into a separate account that we save up then spend as we see needs in the community. Part of my husband's wage goes to the church where we get spiritual food. So we find a balance. I don't particularly see why using money for hospitality and building connections in your church would be a bad thing.
At different points in your life you can give differently. When I was a single mom, giving 10% would have been too much for us. So I gave cheerfully, knowing that at another point in life I would be able to give more.
When we pastored we made a point NOT to know exactly who was giving what monetarily so that we couldn't get silly ideas about who gave what.
Our church uses all money given for ministry only, not debts. They established a preschool to pay for the church mortgage out of its profits as well as being its own ministry.
I think getting legalistic about giving is unhelpful. As people say, just work it out with God and give cheerfully and quietly.

 

[seeker2122]

It's hard for me to understand why anyone questions giving to God. Where would we be if he questioned giving to us? Just like following his words. Why do we question this one? Seems to me it's a stingy thing. No offense if you don't fall in this category. Many posts on this subject causes my response.
Blessings

The problem is not giving to God. I think most people would have no problems giving to God if He stood right in front of us with his hands open waiting to receive our offering. The problem is trusting in others to receive our giving to God on his behalf.

You see, if I go to a church that is really doing a bad job at following Christ, I don't feel like giving much to that church in terms of financial offering. Is that me saying I don't trust God to use that money in any way He sees fit? Or is that me not wanting to give all that I can into a cause that is not what I believe. So I'd rather give by giving my time and effort to individuals and ministering to them or helping people out and hope that is a proper enough form of tithing or giving to God just because I didn't drop 10% of my salary into the offering box. If the ministry is something I firmly support and believe in, I'd be all in.

It's like Biden and Trump. Some of you would only support Biden and not Trump. Others would only support Trump and not Biden. But they are BOTH Americans and both want good things for America and want to make America great. They both want what's best for America that's why they are presidential candidates but they come at it from different angles or different systems and that's where people segregate and start to cut off their support for one in favor of the other. That's how I see it. I know many churches out there are all trying to do what God wants but that doesn't mean I would support each of them equally. I think the same thing happens where some churches do it in such a way you support and agree with and others do it ways that you don't support or agree with and I think that affects how much you give.

Giving to God is a very loose term it seems. I wish we could just put it in the hands of God directly, but we have to put into the hands of other humans who you hope are doing the will of God. That's why it's hard to give. Not a popular answer or nice to hear, but it's the truth. It's very hard for people to give to something they don't believe in.

 

[Ceallaigh]

I remember when I was a little kid getting upset over the fact that the money didn't actually go to God. My family said "what did you think they throw the money up into heaven?"

 

[returntosender]

The problem is not giving to God. I think most people would have no problems giving to God if He stood right in front of us with his hands open waiting to receive our offering. The problem is trusting in others to receive our giving to God on his behalf.

You see, if I go to a church that is really doing a bad job at following Christ, I don't feel like giving much to that church in terms of financial offering. Is that me saying I don't trust God to use that money in any way He sees fit? Or is that me not wanting to give all that I can into a cause that is not what I believe. So I'd rather give by giving my time and effort to individuals and ministering to them or helping people out and hope that is a proper enough form of tithing or giving to God just because I didn't drop 10% of my salary into the offering box. If the ministry is something I firmly support and believe in, I'd be all in.

It's like Biden and Trump. Some of you would only support Biden and not Trump. Others would only support Trump and not Biden. But they are BOTH Americans and both want good things for America and want to make America great. They both want what's best for America that's why they are presidential candidates but they come at it from different angles or different systems and that's where people segregate and start to cut off their support for one in favor of the other. That's how I see it. I know many churches out there are all trying to do what God wants but that doesn't mean I would support each of them equally. I think the same thing happens where some churches do it in such a way you support and agree with and others do it ways that you don't support or agree with and I think that affects how much you give.

Giving to God is a very loose term it seems. I wish we could just put it in the hands of God directly, but we have to put into the hands of other humans who you hope are doing the will of God. That's why it's hard to give. Not a popular answer or nice to hear, but it's the truth. It's very hard for people to give to something they don't believe in.

I believe God has a hand in our giving. He knows our hearts and That's what it is about.

 

[TPop]

So you are a literalist? You believe in monetary / financial giving at 10% and no other forms of giving is considered tithing?

I dont know what you are asking. Are you inferring that you give Grain, meat, and bread to your teacher?

[1Co 9:1-14, 19 KJV] 1 Am I not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord? 2 If I be not an apostle unto others, yet doubtless I am to you: for the seal of mine apostleship are ye in the Lord. 3 Mine answer to them that do examine me is this, 4 Have we not power to eat and to drink? 5 Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and [as] the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas? 6 Or I only and Barnabas, have not we power to forbear working? 7 Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock? 8 Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also? 9 For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen? 10 Or saith he [it] altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, [this] is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope. 11 If we have sown unto you spiritual things, [is it] a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things? 12 If others be partakers of [this] power over you, [are] not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ. 13 Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live [of the things] of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar? 14 Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel. ... 19 For though I be free from all [men], yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.

Paul did not take payment. It appears that Barnabas did not either. Paul was a tent maker. He said he did not want their support at Correnth and for a reason. But he is clear. You get what you pay for.

But he talks a lot about reaping the benefits of being a teacher. Do you want part-time teachers, that have to work, take care of family concerns and then with whatever time is left over, slaughter your sheep and goats? Or do you want full-time teachers, dedicated to your welfare, and you to theirs? It is not a one-way street. It is not simply Pastores either. It is teachers.

You want to give bread, fat, and grain to your teachers? Can you differentiate between teachers in NT times in a temperate climate and many living in tents to those living in Siberia, Minnesota, Montana, etc. Would you only give them Fat, Meat, and Grain? But not support their housing needs? Heating needs? Nothing in scripture about lumber, bricks, firewood, propane, or natural gas... Has not the populated world and the Gospel spread beyond 500 or even a 1000 miles from Jeruselem?

Peace and Blessings

 

[TPop]

Tithing was basically an old covenant possessions tax for Israelites. The were to set aside a tenth of all that their fields produce each year and new wine and olive oil, and the firstborn of their herds and flocks Deuteronomy 14:22-23. The New Testament just says to give. Mainly to the needy. Jesus tells us to "give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing" Matthew 6:3

This is correct. We do not follow the OT.

This is not in line with scripture. Jesus made provision for full time dependable educated and wise teachers and their support. You don't get that from not supporting them. And supporting them in today's world.

 

[TPop]

The promises of Malachi 3 apply to the specific practice of tithing which is a defined percentage.
Greed [love of money] vs. generosity is a separate issue, above that.

I do not believe the context of Malichi is the Gentiles. It is to the Jews.

Peace and Blessings

 

[Ceallaigh]

This is correct. We do not follow the OT.

This is incorrect. Jesus made provision for full time dependable educated and wise teachers and their support. You don't get that from not supporting them. And supporting them in today's world.

Scripture please?

 

[TPop]

It may be literal, it's not Biblical.
In the OT the tithe was always food - unless 10% of your crops was too heavy to carry, then it was sold and exchanged for money. Once at the temple the money was used to buy more food and folk ate their tithe!

I don't agree with tithing - or, at least, giving 10% is fine as long as people don't claim that that is following Scripture and try to impose it on others.
The deaconess at my childhood church did exactly as you have suggested.

But the NT pattern of giving was either to give everything, or as much as you have decided, before God.

This is correct. OT tithing is not in play.

NT support of teachers is. And Paul speaks to this in a number of places. If one wants a teacher that supports himself and his family and takes time away from his preparation to teach you? Then that is the type of teacher one will receive. I would not want that.

Peace and Blessings

 

[TPop]

Scripture please?

Here is some.

[1Co 9:1-14, 19 KJV] 1 Am I not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord? 2 If I be not an apostle unto others, yet doubtless I am to you: for the seal of mine apostleship are ye in the Lord. 3 Mine answer to them that do examine me is this, 4 Have we not power to eat and to drink? 5 Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and [as] the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas? 6 Or I only and Barnabas, have not we power to forbear working? 7 Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock? 8 Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also? 9 For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen? 10 Or saith he [it] altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, [this] is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope. 11 If we have sown unto you spiritual things, [is it] a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things? 12 If others be partakers of [this] power over you, [are] not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ. 13 Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live [of the things] of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar? 14 Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel. ... 19 For though I be free from all [men], yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.

 

[Sabertooth]

I do not believe the context of Malichi is the Gentiles. It is to the Jews.

We have seen God honor that promise to our Gentile family.

 

[TPop]

We have seen God honor that promise to our Gentile family.

You can take the prayer of Jaybez, pray it, and have good things come. But it is not because of the prayer of Jaybez because that was for a specific time, person, and context. It is not for us.

You can claim it. But you would be misapplying it and assigning things to it that are not due to Malichi 3. God is addressing two groups of people there. Mal 4 is about God's Chosen people to return to Him. Perhaps if you are a Jew. Short of that, you are incorrect.

Peace and Blessings

 

[Sabertooth]

You can take the prayer of Jaybez,...

IIRC, the "Prayer of Jabez" is a WOF thing. I do not participate in the WOF movement.