Rapture Top Dogs Admit no Proof Exists

Dave L · Aug 30, 2018

mkgal1 said:
That's not what Scripture is speaking of.

Either "heaven and earth" has passed away or we're under the Sinai covenant (according to the words of Jesus in Matt 5:18)

"Heaven and earth" is an idiom for ancient Jerusalem. It's passed away.

But you're welcome to believe that the earth will literally explode (as I've already stated). Me? I prefer to believe that God keeps His promises.

Genesis 8:21, “And the Lord smelled a soothing aroma. Then the Lord said in His heart, ‘I will never again curse the ground for man’s sake, although the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; nor will I again destroy every living thing as I have done.’”

God said the literal heaven (Psalm 148:4-6) and the literal earth (Psalm 104:5) will never pass away. Psalms 78:69, "...the earth which he hath established for ever." In Genesis 8:21, God said he would never again destroy every living thing. God can be trusted, He keeps his word. "…the earth abideth for ever" (Ecclesiastes 1:4).

https://www.anewdaydawning.com/blog-1/2014/12/19/will-the-world-be-destroyed-by-fire

You are forcing your ideas into the bible and wrenching scripture from its context to support them.

Start with the obvious and clear meaning of scripture and make the obscure scriptures conform to it. Not the other way around as you have it.

Copperhead · Aug 30, 2018

jgr said:
Christ and His perfect and completed sacrifice at Calvary (Daniel 9:24-27) is my insurance policy.

Good luck collecting on any other policy.

You entirely missed the point altogether. But don't feel bad, most have.

Copperhead · Aug 30, 2018

BABerean2 said:
Christ returns in "flaming fire" taking vengeance on those who do not know God in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10.

When does the fire come in Revelation chapter 20?

Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

.

Now you are speaking of the rebellion when Satan is released. That is addressed in Psalm 2, the kingdom parables, etc. And we have to look again at the sheep and goat judgement of Matthew 25, the sheep are considered worthy to enter the millennial kingdom and repopulate the earth. It is those offspring who then still have enough residual evil in their hearts so that Satan can foment a rebellion against the Lord one last time when he is released. Psalms 2 shows that.

The kingdom parables of Matthew 13 show how evil grows even inside the millennial kingdom to eventually permeate the entire kingdom setting the stage for Satan being able to instigate that one final rebellion. Evil is nesting in the kingdom as it grows. While Satan may be bound during that time, his cohorts are not.

Think of it.... why is the Lord, and those who overcame during the time of the Church, ruling with a rod of iron? That in itself implies that some in the millennial kingdom are getting out of line and need to be punished. How is it the scripture says of that time, that those who will not come up to Jerusalem at the feast of tabernacles will have rain withheld from their land? And why does the millennial kingdom only last 1000 years? If it was perfect it should last forever.

How about we try to stay on topic of the pre-trib and not get sidetracked into unrelated territory.

mkgal1 · Aug 30, 2018

Dave L said:
You are forcing your ideas into the bible and wrenching scripture from its context to support them.

Start with the obvious and clear meaning of scripture and make the obscure scriptures conform to it. Not the other way around as you have it.

The only version of eschatology I'd heard for decades is what you ascribe to (and it just never seemed to harmonize with Scripture).....but recently I began focusing on the "kingdom of God". This Amazon review articulates well what that experience has been like (the book the reviewer is writing about actually isn't one I've read yet, but the results are the same). It's important to understand Hebrew literature and the context of the ancient Jewish culture:

reviewer said:
I used this book as a backdrop with which to frame a series of lessons for my class to build upon those from an earlier study that reached a similar conclusion, but from a totally different angle. (I heartily commend that book as well. It is Dr. Michael Heiser's "The Unseen Realm".) These two books, along with some video-based teaching from Ray Vander Laan, will help readers/viewers to see the Biblical metanarrative from a wholly different, but still quite Biblical (indeed, perhaps even more Biblical!) perspective - one that's quite exciting, challenging, and life-changing, and one that will shift one's focus from "me and my salvation" and "going to heaven" to the realization that an all out cosmic war is raging all around us (Heiser's "Unseen Realm") that will lead to the final confrontation in Revelation, but will also lead to the full restoration and fulfillment of God's original intent for humanity: being His "imagers" and globalizing Eden. Sound mind boggling? Sound somewhat "fringe" or far-removed from what you've typically heard in church? Well I encourage you not to get scared away, but rather read these books - with your Bible by your side so you can read the referenced passages in parallel with the author's interpretation. Further, I encourage you to read the referenced passages in their larger context. If you do, I believe you'll see Dr. Middleton's conclusions aren't contrived, but harmonize quite well with the the thrust of the passages used. And if you can allow/make yourself to step back a bit and see the Biblical narrative from a larger, more panoramic perspective, I believe you'll be able to see this metanarrative even more clearly, and it's an exciting one - and an encouraging one - especially in these increasingly chaotic times! In short, things aren't "spinning out of control", but are "unfolding like clockwork"; God's in charge ~ https://www.amazon.com/New-Heaven-Earth-Reclaiming-Eschatology/dp/0801048680

Dave L · Aug 30, 2018

mkgal1 said:
The only version of eschatology I'd heard for decades is what you ascribe to.....but recently I began focusing on the "kingdom of God". This Amazon review articulates well what that experience has been like (the book the reviewer is writing about actually isn't one I've read yet, but the results are the same):

[quoting reviewer] I used this book as a backdrop with which to frame a series of lessons for my class to build upon those from an earlier study that reached a similar conclusion, but from a totally different angle. (I heartily commend that book as well. It is Dr. Michael Heiser's "The Unseen Realm".) These two books, along with some video-based teaching from Ray Vander Laan, will help readers/viewers to see the Biblical metanarrative from a wholly different, but still quite Biblical (indeed, perhaps even more Biblical!) perspective - one that's quite exciting, challenging, and life-changing, and one that will shift one's focus from "me and my salvation" and "going to heaven" to the realization that an all out cosmic war is raging all around us (Heiser's "Unseen Realm") that will lead to the final confrontation in Revelation, but will also lead to the full restoration and fulfillment of God's original intent for humanity: being His "imagers" and globalizing Eden. Sound mind boggling? Sound somewhat "fringe" or far-removed from what you've typically heard in church? Well I encourage you not to get scared away, but rather read these books - with your Bible by your side so you can read the referenced passages in parallel with the author's interpretation. Further, I encourage you to read the referenced passages in their larger context. If you do, I believe you'll see Dr. Middleton's conclusions aren't contrived, but harmonize quite well with the the thrust of the passages used. And if you can allow/make yourself to step back a bit and see the Biblical narrative from a larger, more panoramic perspective, I believe you'll be able to see this metanarrative even more clearly, and it's an exciting one - and an encouraging one - especially in these increasingly chaotic times! In short, things aren't "spinning out of control", but are "unfolding like clockwork"; God's in charge ~ https://www.amazon.com/New-Heaven-Earth-Reclaiming-Eschatology/dp/0801048680

[/QUOTE]
You are trying to sell your goods on the merits of others.

mkgal1 · Aug 30, 2018

Dave L said:
You are trying to sell your goods on the merits of others.

I'm not "selling" anything. However.....at least my assertions have support (instead of just repeating the same statements sans support). I don't have a background in ancient Hebrew culture...so of course I'm going to learn from those that have studied extensively in that area (as Ray Vander Laan has).

Dave L · Aug 30, 2018

mkgal1 said:
I'm not "selling" anything. However.....at least my assertions have support (instead of just repeating the same statements sans support). I don't have a background in ancient Hebrew culture...so of course I'm going to learn from those that have studied extensively in that area (as Ray Vander Laan has).

So if I read Peter and take him at his word, I do not have support? But you can read your ideas into his words and support it with others who do the same..... :wave:

mkgal1 · Aug 30, 2018

BABerean2 said:
Doe Ray believe we are now living in the New Heavens and New Earth?

I can't say that I've heard [or read] him make that statement specifically - but he does have a series called The Clash of Kingdoms that explains how "His kingdom has come to earth" amidst the chaos.

LittleLambofJesus · Aug 30, 2018

mkgal1 said:
.........It's important to understand Hebrew literature and the context of the ancient Jewish culture:

Amen!
I found this Hebrew site some years back and and still go back to it now and again.
Both the words Hebrew and Greek are used:

Luke 23:38
And an inscription also was written over Him in letters of Greek, Latin, and Hebrew:[fn]
THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS.

Revelation 9:11
And they had as king over them the angel of well of the abyss,
whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, but in Greek he has the name Apollyon.

http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/

In the world, past and present, there are two major types of cultures; the Hebrew (or eastern) culture and the Greek (or western) culture. Both of these cultures view their surroundings, lives, and purpose in ways which would seem foreign to the other.
With the exception of a few Bedouin nomadic tribes living in the Near East today, the ancient Hebrew culture has disappeared.

The Greek culture describes objects in relation to the object itself. The Hebrew culture describes objects in relation to the Hebrew himself...........

Abstract vs. concrete thought

Greek thought views the world through the mind (abstract thought). Ancient Hebrew thought views the world through the senses (concrete thought).

Concrete thought is the expression of concepts and ideas in ways that can be seen, touched, smelled, tasted and/or heard. All five of the senses are used when speaking and hearing and writing and reading the Hebrew language.
An example of this can be found in Psalms 1:3; "He is like a tree planted by streams of water, which yields its fruit in season, and whose leaf does not wither." In this passage we have concrete words expressing abstract thoughts, such as a tree (one who is upright, righteous), streams of water (grace), fruit (good character) and an unwithered leaf (prosperity).

Abstract thought is the expression of concepts and ideas in ways that cannot be seen, touched, smelled, tasted or heard. Hebrew never uses abstract thought as English does.
Examples of Abstract thought can be found in Psalms 103:8; "The LORD is compassionate and gracious, Slow to anger, abounding in love." As you noticed I said that Hebrew uses concrete and not abstract thoughts, but here we have such abstract concepts as compassionate, gracious, anger, and love in a Hebrew passage. Actually these are abstract English words translating the original Hebrew concrete words.
The translators often translate this way because the original Hebrew makes no sense when literally translated into English.

http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/23_parallel.html

As Hebrew poetry is written much differently than our own Western style of poetry, many do not recognize the poetry which can cause problems when translating or interpreting these passages.
Approximately 75% of the Tenach (Old Testament) is poetry. All of Psalms and Proverbs are Hebrew poetry. Even the book of Genesis is full of Poetry.
There are several reasons the Hebrews used poetry, much of the Torah was sung and was easier to sing too, poetry and songs are easier to memorize than straight texts, Parallel poetry (as in Genesis 1) emphasizes something of great importance, as the creation story is.
The rabbis believed that if something is worth saying, it is worth saying beautifully."

When we read Genesis chapter one we usually see only one story there, but there are actually many stories. Why don't we see these multiple stories? Because we read the Hebrew Bible from a Modern Western thinkers point of view and not from an Ancient Eastern thinkers such as the Hebrews who wrote it.

The Hebrews style of writing is prolific with a style of poetry unfamiliar to most readers of the Bible. This poetry is nothing like the poetry we are used to reading today and therefore it is invisible to us.

mkgal1 · Aug 30, 2018

Dave L said:
So if I read Peter and take him at his word, I do not have support? But you can read your ideas into his words and support it with others who do the same.....

You're not taking Peter "at his word" because, I don't believe, you're interpreting what he was meaning correctly. He wasn't speaking literally. It'd be like me saying "you let the cat out of the bag" and you are upset -and call me a liar- because you can't find the cat.

"Heaven and earth" is an idiom. The old "heaven and earth" (ancient Jerusalem) is passed away.....and the Sinai covenant has disappeared along with it....and we are operating under the New Covenant....(the new "heaven and earth").

Matthew 5:18 ~ I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear [which is ancient Jerusalem -already done- demolished], not even the smallest detail of God's law will disappear until its purpose is achieved [the purpose of the law has been achieved, and the OC law has disappeared].

DavidPT · Aug 30, 2018

mkgal1 said:
"Heaven and earth" is an idiom for ancient Jerusalem. It's passed away.

If it is, and it very well may be the case in some contexts, it's definitely not the case in Matthew 24 though.

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

One is to believe that verse 36 is referring to ancient Jerusalem passing away in 70 AD or so? The text states the angels of heaven don't even know of that day and hour. Why though, if verse 35 and 36 are referring to what happened around 70 AD?

DavidPT · Aug 30, 2018

mkgal1 said:
You're not taking Peter "at his word" because, I don't believe, you're interpreting what he was meaning correctly. He wasn't speaking literally. It'd be like me saying "you let the cat out of the bag" and you are upset -and call me a liar- because you can't find the cat.

"Heaven and earth" is an idiom. The old "heaven and earth" (ancient Jerusalem) is passed away.....and the Sinai covenant has disappeared along with it....and we are operating under the New Covenant....(the new "heaven and earth").

Matthew 5:18 ~ I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear [which is ancient Jerusalem -already done- demolished], not even the smallest detail of God's law will disappear until its purpose is achieved [the purpose of the law has been achieved, and the OC law has disappeared].

Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

This part is key----till all be fulfilled. Not everything was fulfilled by 70 AD, nor was all fulfilled anytime in the first century. Some things were fulfilled, some things weren't. Therefore that can't possibly equal all things fulfilled.

mkgal1 · Aug 30, 2018

Dave L said:
So if I read Peter and take him at his word, I do not have support?

No.....what you have is YOUR opinion of what Peter said.

Why do you not take God at His word....where it's written:

Genesis 8:21, “And the Lord smelled a soothing aroma. Then the Lord said in His heart, ‘I will never again curse the ground for man’s sake, although the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; nor will I again destroy every living thing as I have done.’”

God said the literal heaven (Psalm 148:4-6) and the literal earth (Psalm 104:5) will never pass away. Psalms 78:69, "...the earth which he hath established for ever." In Genesis 8:21, God said he would never again destroy every living thing. God can be trusted, He keeps his word. "…the earth abideth for ever" (Ecclesiastes 1:4).

https://www.anewdaydawning.com/blog-1/2014/12/19/will-the-world-be-destroyed-by-fire

Dave L · Aug 30, 2018

mkgal1 said:
No.....what you have is YOUR opinion of what Peter said.

Why do you not take God at His word....where it's written:

Genesis 8:21, “And the Lord smelled a soothing aroma. Then the Lord said in His heart, ‘I will never again curse the ground for man’s sake, although the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; nor will I again destroy every living thing as I have done.’”

God said the literal heaven (Psalm 148:4-6) and the literal earth (Psalm 104:5) will never pass away. Psalms 78:69, "...the earth which he hath established for ever." In Genesis 8:21, God said he would never again destroy every living thing. God can be trusted, He keeps his word. "…the earth abideth for ever" (Ecclesiastes 1:4).

https://www.anewdaydawning.com/blog-1/2014/12/19/will-the-world-be-destroyed-by-fire

No more floods...........

Dave L · Aug 30, 2018

mkgal1 said:
You're not taking Peter "at his word" because, I don't believe, you're interpreting what he was meaning correctly. He wasn't speaking literally. It'd be like me saying "you let the cat out of the bag" and you are upset -and call me a liar- because you can't find the cat.

"Heaven and earth" is an idiom. The old "heaven and earth" (ancient Jerusalem) is passed away.....and the Sinai covenant has disappeared along with it....and we are operating under the New Covenant....(the new "heaven and earth").

Matthew 5:18 ~ I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear [which is ancient Jerusalem -already done- demolished], not even the smallest detail of God's law will disappear until its purpose is achieved [the purpose of the law has been achieved, and the OC law has disappeared].

Heaven and Earth = Heaven and Earth.

mkgal1 · Aug 30, 2018

DavidPT said:
Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

This part is key----till all be fulfilled. Not everything was fulfilled by 70 AD, nor was all fulfilled anytime in the first century. Some things were fulfilled, some things weren't. Therefore that can't possibly equal all things fulfilled.

The purpose of the Sinai law (OC law) was fulfilled in Jesus - and, because of that, because it was then "obsolete" and meaningless, it disappeared. Do you believe we are still under the law (OC law)? We're in trouble if we are....since we're w/o a temple.

Hebrews 8:13 ~ When God speaks of a "new" covenant, it means he has made the first one obsolete. It is now out of date and will soon disappear [that was written prior to the destruction of the temple and ancient Jerusalem].

BABerean2 · Aug 30, 2018

mkgal1 said:
Hebrews 8:13 ~ When God speaks of a "new" covenant, it means he has made the first one obsolete. It is now out of date and will soon disappear [that was written prior to the destruction of the temple and ancient Jerusalem].

Are you saying there was a time period of about 40 years when both the Sinai Covenant and the New Covenant were in effect, between Calvary and 70 AD?

.

mkgal1 · Aug 30, 2018

Dave L said:
No more floods...........

Genesis 8:21 ~ "nor will I destroy every living thing as I have done"

Psalm 148 ~

Praise the LORD!

Praise the LORD from the heavens!

Praise him from the skies!

2 Praise him, all his angels!

Praise him, all the armies of heaven!

3 Praise him, sun and moon!

Praise him, all you twinkling stars!

4Praise him, skies above!

Praise him, vapors high above the clouds!

5 Let every created thing give praise to the LORD,

for he issued his command, and they came into being.

6 He set them in place forever and ever.

His decree will never be revoked.

Psalm 104:5 ~
You placed the world on its foundation

so it would never be moved.

Psalm 104:31 ~
May the glory of the LORD continue forever!

The LORD takes pleasure in all he has made!

LittleLambofJesus · Aug 30, 2018

mkgal1 said:
You're not taking Peter "at his word" because, I don't believe, you're interpreting what he was meaning correctly. He wasn't speaking literally. It'd be like me saying "you let the cat out of the bag" and you are upset -and call me a liar- because you can't find the cat.

"Heaven and earth" is an idiom. The old "heaven and earth" (ancient Jerusalem) is passed away.....and the Sinai covenant has disappeared along with it....and we are operating under the New Covenant....(the new "heaven and earth").

Matthew 5:18 ~ I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear [which is ancient Jerusalem -already done- demolished], not even the smallest detail of God's law will disappear until its purpose is achieved [the purpose of the law has been achieved, and the OC law has disappeared].

Out with old [flesh/law/death], in with the new[spirit and life]

Matthew 24:
1 And Jesus coming out went from the Temple, and His Disciples came toward Him to show to Him the buildings of the Temple
2 and Jesus is saying to them "Not ye see all these?
Amen I am saying to ye, not no be being left here stone upon stone, which not shall be being thrown down" [Mark 21:5/Luke 19:44]

Luke 19:
43 That shall be arriving days upon Thee, and Thy enemies shall be casting up a rampart/siege-work to Thee, and shall be encompassing Thee, and pressing Thee every which place.
44 And shall be leveling Thee and Thy offspring in Thee, and not shall be leaving stone upon stone in Thee, stead which not Thou knew the time of Thy visitation/inspection".

Revelation 14:8
And another Messenger, second-one follows saying "She falls, She falls, Babylon the Great, the out of the wine of the fury of the fornication of her she has given to drink all the nations".

Hebrew 8:13
in the to be saying `New,' He hath made Old the first.
The yet being aged and being obsolete nigh of disappearance.
[Revelation 14:8/18:8/]

http://www.bible.ca/pre-destruction70AD-george-holford-1805AD.htm

The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover....

The Temple now presented little more than a heap of ruins..........

In executing the command of Titus, relative to the demolition of Jerusalem, the Roman soldiers not only threw down the buildings, but even dug up their foundations, and so completely levelled the whole circuit of the city, that a stranger would scarcely have known that it had ever been inhabited by human beings.

mkgal1 · Aug 30, 2018

BABerean2 said:
Are you saying there was a time period of about 40 years when both the Sinai Covenant and the New Covenant were in effect, between Calvary and 70 AD?

.

No. I'm saying there's about a 40 year period from when Jesus declared the temple unclean and the time it was actually destroyed.

The purpose of the covenant was fulfilled in Jesus.

I think you may be conflating the covenants and the ancient city of Jerusalem and the temple.

Rapture Top Dogs Admit no Proof Exists

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Newbie

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

Well-Known Member

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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Well-Known Member

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

Newbie

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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