Can a Protestant be devoted to Mary And the saints ?

FireDragon76

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This, however, is quite a different matter from the idea of us praying to the saints.

God hears all prayers, even the ones that are directed to saints. Whether that does anything or not... of course it does. Millions of Catholics and Orthodox will attest to it. I don't necessarily mean here a kind of spectacular miracle, I mean just the common ability to talk to somebody you feel is connected to God when you feel alienated from official, high theology symbols. Even Jesus can be tainted by this sort of religion.

I read an article a long time ago talking about how alot of the trade in relics is from people alienated from the Catholic church. A surprising number of gay men. They aren't superstitious, they just feel shut out and want to keep some kind of physical contact with their faith. I realize "proper" Protestant doctrine might say, nobody is shut out, but it certainly doesn't always feel that way.
 
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Albion

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God hears all prayers, even the ones that are directed to saints.
That's somewhat separate from whether or not it's a god-pleasing practice, though, isn't it? And if this the way we should look at the matter, what of the obvious question, "Why then not just pray to God in the first place?"

Well, the reasoning there is that which is taught in the Catholic Church--praying to saints is good because they have more influence with God than do we. They can thus act as 'go-betweens' between God and Man.
 
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prodromos

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That's somewhat separate from whether or not it's a god-pleasing practice, though, isn't it? And if this the way we should look at the matter, what of the obvious question, "Why then not just pray to God in the first place?"
Because the body of Christ is a communion of love, and all interactions born of love between members of His body are pleasing to God and bear much fruit.
 
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Albion

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Because the body of Christ is a communion of love, and all interactions born of love between members of His body are pleasing to God and bear much fruit.
Not much of an answer, is it? And loving each other isn't the issue. I asked why not go directly to God in prayer, considering that we know from Scripture that He is waiting to hear from us?
 
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Not much of an answer, is it? And loving each other isn't the issue. I asked why not go directly to God in prayer, considering that we know from Scripture that He is waiting to hear from us?
I have yet to hear anyone ever suggest asking for intercession from the Saints INSTEAD OF praying to God. That would indeed be a problem. But that seems to never be what anyone is actually suggesting, so that's a strawman.
 
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Albion

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I have yet to hear anyone ever suggest asking for intercession from the Saints INSTEAD OF praying to God.
Well, let's think about that.

Am I to understand that the point there is that both are equally Biblical? Or necessary? How can "Go to God in prayer" and "Go to someone else in prayer" be seen as a "six of one; half a dozen of the other" no difference proposition?

OR is it that we are supposed to agree to the theory I referred to earlier--"the saints have more pull with God, so go through them and they will be able to get a hearing for you with God and also the answer to your prayer?"
 
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~Anastasia~

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Well, let's think about that.

Am I to understand that the point there is that both are equally Biblical? Or necessary? How can "Go to God in prayer" and "Go to someone else in prayer" be seen as a "six of one; half a dozen of the other" no difference proposition?

OR is it that we are supposed to agree to the theory I referred to earlier--"the saints have more pull with God, so go through them and they will be able to get a hearing for you with God and also the answer to your prayer?"

Neither (or none of those) frankly. Why are those positions implied as necessary reasons?


It really is as simple as - would you ask your pastor, if he is a very godly man, to pray for you?

If you absolutely would not, or object to that idea for some reason (though I can't imagine one), then forget asking anyone else to pray for you either.

(Not you personally, btw, I'm speaking generally.)

But if you would appreciate the prayers of your pastor, why not those of St. Paul, if you're starting out on a missionary journey (or you just greatly admire him?).

That's really all there is to it. I'm sure you probably know, the Saints are recognized as Saints (at least in Orthodoxy), because of reasonable surety that they died pleasing to God, and we have every reason to believe they are with Him. So why not ask?

It's ok to love and even admire them. We are commanded to love one another, to do good to one another, and to pray for one another. I can't see God being jealous of that.
 
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Albion

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Neither (or none of those) frankly. Why are those positions implied as necessary reasons?

It really is as simple as - would you ask your pastor, if he is a very godly man, to pray for you?

No. It isn't. That's the usual argument, but it's quite apparent to me that there's a difference between speaking to your pastor and praying to a deceased person, not even knowing if that person can hear your prayer. And that's to say nothing of the fact that the Bible doesn't approve of such an act, and Jesus (who in addition to everything else is believed by Christians to be our model for life choices) never prayed to a dead saint or instructed his Apostles to do such a thing, not even when he was answering a direct question about it!

To be sure, I'm not steamed over this matter, nor do I have ill feelings towards people whose religious orientation makes much of praying to the saints, but there's no sound basis for this practice. No one has yet given a solid explanation about why it's so attractive. As I mentioned, no one can even say why it is better than just praying to God or even equal to doing that.
 
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No. It isn't. That's the usual argument, but it's quite apparent to me that there's a difference between speaking to your pastor and praying to a deceased person, not even knowing if that person can hear your prayer. And that's to say nothing of the fact that the Bible doesn't approve of such an act, and Jesus (who in addition to everything else is believed by Christians to be our model for life choices) never prayed to a dead saint or instructed his Apostles to do such a thing, not even when he was answering a direct question about it!

To be sure, I'm not steamed over this matter, nor do I have ill feelings towards people whose religious orientation makes much of praying to the saints, but there's no sound basis for this practice. No one has yet given a solid explanation about why it's so attractive. As I mentioned, no one can even say why it is better than just praying to God or even equal to doing that.

When did Jesus ask anyone to pray for Him? Yet we ARE instructed to pray for one another. So the lack of Jesus having asked for prayers (by anyone) would not seem to be a definitive way of getting an answer.

(By the way, I have no animosity either. And this is not a necessary thing to salvation. I was quickly assured by Orthodox priests as an inquirer that no one is required to do such a thing, and I personally think that if it goes against one's conscience, that in itself is a problem, so I don't even encourage someone who is hesitant to do so.)

But although Jesus didn't ask anyone to pray for Him, He did speak to Moses and Elijah in the presence of Peter, James, and John at the Transfiguration. Not the same thing, of course, and I wouldn't use that as a point to say "we should ask for intercession of the Saints" ... but of course they are alive, and conscious, and within a certain context, there is obviously no sin.

Are they aware of our prayers? Only by their communion with God, I would say. But the martyrs under the throne in Revelation have knowledge of and interest in what happens on earth.

As to why a person would want to do that, I'm sure you've heard the theological reasons, so I don't think there's any point in me repeating them. They at least make logical sense to me, if not being proof in themselves. But I will say from my own personal experience, although very cautious, the first two times I asked (and by the way, I actually never "pray to" any Saint, but rather I ask God for their prayers - just my own comfort level, but apparently there is no problem with that) ... but the first two times I asked, I received answers almost immediately to things I had been praying fervently for for months, in some cases many moths. And in one case, the answer was even far more than I hoped for. That is my own personal reason for why a person might want to do this.

If we believe that we have a greater communion with God after we die, which makes sense Scripturally even (Paul said that he was torn because if he died, he would be with Christ, so one pretty much has to understand he meant to be with Him in a greater way than he was in life) ... in that case, it might be seen a LITTLE bit like a king who lives in a faraway castle. You can text or fax the King anytime you want, and He reads them all. And He cares about His subjects, and will answer them as he wills. But ... if you knew someone who lived in the King's castle, and sat down to every meal with him, might you not appreciate it if that person were to ask the King for favor on you? That's not a perfect analogy - it's just the best I can think of.

It brings glory to God to answer such prayers - we fully recognize that He is made glorious in us. It underscores His pleasure in lives greatly devoted to Him. And it strengthens bonds of love all around, which I believe pleases God.


I think if a person never prayed to God, but only asked others to do so for them, whether those others are alive or in heaven, then I think such prayers are not as effective at all as one's own prayers would be.

If one prays to God anyway, then the "effectiveness" of those prayers or of others is up to God anyway. (That's a whole other topic, what we hope or expect to "accomplish" by prayer.) But then, why do we ask others - whether our pastor, family, friends, or whoever to pray for us at all? Do we think that is more "effective"? Why? And if we don't think having others' prayers added to our is effective, then why would we do it?

Most of us DO want others to pray for us. Even in Scripture we have that instruction and example.

The only quibble here seems to be with WHO we are asking?
 
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Albion

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When did Jesus ask anyone to pray for Him?
Here's what I wrote:

"...praying to a deceased person, not even knowing if that person can hear your prayer. And that's to say nothing of the fact that the Bible doesn't approve of such an act, and Jesus (who in addition to everything else is believed by Christians to be our model for life choices) never prayed to a dead saint or instructed his Apostles to do such a thing...."

Yet we ARE instructed to pray for one another.
Yes. "We." Others in the same state as ourselves. It's clear that other people in the flesh were indicated. Not those who have passed into the afterlife and whose condition is now quite different.

But although Jesus didn't ask anyone to pray for Him, He did speak to Moses and Elijah in the presence of Peter, James, and John at the Transfiguration.
THEY didn't speak to Moses or Elijah, did they? I think that should answer your point. Jesus can do this; we cannot. And none of these were praying to Moses and Elijah, petitioning them to act as intermediaries with the Father, isn't that right?

Are they aware of our prayers? Only by their communion with God, I would say. But the martyrs under the throne in Revelation have knowledge of and interest in what happens on earth.
They have an interest in what happens on Earth and do pray for mankind, but that isn't what we have been discussing or considering. We've been discussing us praying to them.

Most of us DO want others to pray for us. Even in Scripture we have that instruction and example.

The only quibble here seems to be with WHO we are asking?
OK.
 
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Yes, but I understood your point was "Jesus didn't ask Saints to pray for Him, so we shouldn't either".

And my reply was that Jesus never asked ANYONE to pray for Him, so that is hardly an instructive point on this issue.

And we don't know but what those in heaven are instructed to pray for us. Jesus does. So if they are still emulating Him as their example?

My point has more to do with a lessening of the dividing line between the living on earth and those who are alive in heaven.

And you acknowledge the Saints in heaven are praying for us?

So you simply object to asking that they do so?
 
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Albion

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Yes, but I understood your point was "Jesus didn't ask Saints to pray for Him, so we shouldn't either".
That was part of what I said. It is one reason, from Scripture, to know that it's not justified. I also dealt with several other reasons.

And my reply was that Jesus never asked ANYONE to pray for Him, so that is hardly an instructive point on this issue.
On the contrary, this "point" proves nothing. Jesus doesn't need our prayers, so the fact that he didn't solicit them proves nothing. That's not the case with the rest of us.

And we don't know but what those in heaven are instructed to pray for us.
You can't make doctrine on the basis of what we do NOT know and have not been given by God TO know.
 
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That was part of what I said. It is one reason, from Scripture, to know that it's not justified. I also dealt with several other reasons.


On the contrary, this "point" proves nothing. Jesus doesn't need our prayers, so the fact that he didn't solicit them proves nothing. That's not the case with the rest of us.


You can't make doctrine on the basis of what we do NOT know and have not been given by God TO know.

I was only saying just as you are, that Jesus not asking Saints to pray for Him proved nothing. You seemed to be saying it was an applicable example.

I still think you can't use it as a Scriptural example of "why not to ask Saints to pray for us".

And I'm not making doctrine on the basis of what we don't know. As I said, I didn't go into the theological reasons in support, because I'm fairly sure you know them already. And I'm not interested in hashing out arguments that have already been repeated.

You don't seem to want to agree on what looks like a very basic point regarding the applicability of Christ not asking for prayer anyway. Very well. :)
 
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FireDragon76

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I don't think the issue is that praying through the saints is necessary, but that it is desired. Yes, you could always turn to God in prayer, I don't think any Catholic or Orthodox denies that. But experience has taught them, it is more difficult than it sounds at times. Human beings are not always capable of measuring up to these lofty ideals of "just go straight to the Boss and tell him". Particularly with people that are estranged from the Church for one reason or another. It can also be a sign of humility at times simply to ask another human being to pray for you, and it can be a sign of pride to reject this.

I know that praying in front of an icon sustained me during a time when I had no spiritual home, and couldn't even pray to God anymore- I just had no will to do so. Most of the time I didn't even pray to Mary, I would just have the icon lit as a reminder that, however bad I felt, however fearful I felt, Mary would be there in my home pointing to Jesus. Mary was like a rope hanging down from heaven in those times, a small church at home, without the oppressive feelings I had come to associate with religion.

A protestant would not understand this easily. If they get hurt in church, chances are God is gone, church is gone, and they walk away and become atheist. Faith is often black-and-white for them without nuance. It is not a practiced way of life necessarily, it becomes an ideology, a thought, or a feeling that either runs hot or cold.
 
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Walsinghsm Way

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I'm officially a United Methodist but I raised Catholic. I'm interested if any Protestants like Lutherans, Anglicans or any people from the High Church have any devotions to Blessed Virgin Mary or the saints. ... What devotions do some Protestants use ,if any,towards Mary?

Well it's not impossible for Protestants to form a pious devotion to Our Lady and the Saints. For myself, as an Anglican (Anglo-Catholic, though I'm not sure how qualified that makes me to be counted among "proper" Protestants) in addition to the recitation of the Rosary (though I'm not as regular or consistent as i feel i should be), veneration of Her Icons, and a special attachment to her under her title Our Lady of Walsingham (a shrine in England, traditionally dating from 1061, that preserved a copy of the Holy House of Nazareth (in exact dimensions)) I will use such devotional material as The Little Office of the Blessed Virgin Mary (both pre- and post Vatican II versions) the Angelus, True Devotion to Mary by St Louis de Montfort and the practice of Holy Slavery of Jesus in Mary, The Imitation of Mary (written ib the late eighteenth century) and I have been known to read through the Akathist Hymn to The Theotokos, and the Service of the Small Paraklesis to the Most Holy Theotokos, various Litanies to Our Lady. And that's just for Mary.

For the saints, I'll invoke their intercession, visit amd venerate their Relics amd Icons, use the Prayers attributed to them and for them, all the time knowin that all true prayer is Trinitarian in nature.
 
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wayfarersoul1978

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I am Protestant who love Our Lady, come join the society of Mary, we will welcome you with open arms. Also join my Facebook group Protestants who love Our Lady. Do you pray the rosary that wonder devotions like you can do daily. Remember we love and respect Mary, we do not worship her. We just know, she is the Mother of the Lord and gas spcial place set for her in kingdom. Rev 12:1-6 talk about the child and a woman. Well, if the child is Jesus then mary is the woman. In this passage it show how Mary has been taken up and in special place above. Who is I say she can not pray for us? As long you know Jesus is Lord and not Mary. I think you will be fine as wine.
 
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wayfarersoul1978

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Ah I see then I thought only Catholics honor them and a few Lutherans and Anglicans and I'm shocked that the Lutheran church honors the saints
But they do not pray to them.
 
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Walsinghsm Way

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Well. In my case, the Shrine at Little Walsingham, Norfolk, England is ecumenical, v or rather there is a Roman Catholic National Shrine of Our Lady of Walsingham, the larger Church of England (Anglican ) and an Orthodox Chapel and Society of OLW, located in the Anglican shrine, so i wouldn't say my church teaches angainst it
 
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Why would one dismiss his or her whole family but his or her brother (Christ)?

As Catholic I cry for the protestants who go through life without the support of our Christian relatives.
Mary and the saints are company on the road to salvation.

They shed light on Christ our Lord and help us to follow him by their example aswell as by their intersession in heaven.

Hagiography and Mariology is very Christological in its very nature.
 
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