Can a Protestant be devoted to Mary And the saints ?

[Lord's Servant]

I'm officially a United Methodist but I raised Catholic. I'm interested if any Protestants like Lutherans, Anglicans or any people from the High Church have any devotions to Blessed Virgin Mary or the saints. As for my devotions I use the Lutheran Rosary,the Pre-Trent Hail Mary,Angelus,Evangelical Praise of the Mother of God,Queen of Heaven prayer, and It is truly right to bless you prayer from a Eastern Orthodox hymn to Mary.What devotions do some Protestants use ,if any,towards Mary?

 

[FireDragon76]

In the Episcopal Church... yes, though a minority might consider some of it too catholic, most are just neutral, it's not considered a de fide issue so its more a private practice though it may be very present in some parishes. The local Episcopal Cathedral has a huge stained-glass window of Mary as the Queen of Heaven in the small Lady Chapel, but no public marian devotions there. She gets mentioned sometimes in the Eucharist, or during the Stations of the Cross... or at Christmas, of course.

I go to a Lutheran church ATM. My pastor is OK with it ,but my guess is that most Lutheran pastors would not be. There are a few Hispanic congregations in the ELCA that do have a lot of Catholic statuary and tolerate the veneration, but they are a small number.

 

[Lord's Servant]

In the Episcopal Church... yes, though some might be against it, it's not considered a de fide issue so its more a private practice though it may be very present in some parishes. The local Episcopal Cathedral has a huge stained-glass window of Mary as the Queen of Heaven in the small Lady Chapel, but no public marian devotions there. She gets mentioned sometimes in the Eucharist, or the patron of the cathedral (Luke).

I go to a Lutheran church ATM. My pastor is OK with it ,but my guess is that most Lutheran pastors would not be.

I say the Orthodox Hail Mary: "Rejoice, O Virgin Mother of God, Mary full of grace, the Lord is with you. Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb. For you have born the Savior of our souls"

I also like the Russian hymn, "O My Most Holy Queen"

Ah I see then and I've heard about the Orthodox Hail Mary and I've used it before but I've never used that hymn before and I can't believe that Episcopal church has a lady chapel. I thought only Catholics had lady chapels because I remembered when I did confession I went there to do my penance. What do you Protestants believe about the Marian apparitions like Guadelupe,Lourdes,and Fatima?

 

[Geralt]

none. the apostles never preached it, the new testament never tells anything about it. the question really is, does ignoring devotion to mary affect the preaching of the gospel message? no.

time spent to mary is redundant, unnecessary. the gospel (without having to do devotions to mary) is still the same. (im not even going to the conclusion that it is idolatrous). personally its all fiction, it gains you nothing except the wrath of God. a case in point for Proverbs 14:12, 16:25

 

[FireDragon76]

Lady Chapels were kept in churches after the reformation, though sometimes everything in the church was damaged by angry mobs. Sometimes these chapels were restored in the 19th century. The Episcopal cathedral downtown was built in the 20's in a Neo-Gothic style and resembles a medieval church. At one time that style of Episcopalian religion was more common in the US, especially in the north and midwest. Now a lot of Episcopal churches are imitating modern Catholic/charismatic stuff with modern architecture and less ornate vestments, and less emphasis on medieval piety.

Marian apparitions are a matter of private opinion. There is an Anglican shrine at Lourdes now, though many Anglicans probably would never go to it- I'm not even sure it is "official". There is also a shrine at Walsingham in East Anglia in the UK where Mary allegedly appeared and had a replica of the "Holy House" in Nazareth built, a site of ancient pilgrimage during the Crusades (about 450 years before Guadalupe). HenryVIII destroyed it in the 16th century but it was rebuilt by a group of Anglicans in the 19th century, and today there are Catholic and Anglican shrines there.

There was an English Anglican stigmatist and healer named Dorothy Kerin that had visions of the Virgin Mary (among other spiritual experiences). She lived during the early and mid 20'th century. So that type of devotion has a place in Anglicanism, it just was more common in the past than the present.

Most Protestants ignore Marian Apparitions (so do some Catholics for that matter). Some actually intensely dislike the idea of them in the first place. You aren't going to find a lot of them with warm feelings. Anglicans and a few Lutherans are about the only exception.

With more Hispanic immigrants in the US some mainline churches are changing their stances a bit because devotion to Mary is so much a part of Latin peoples cultures that it is a matter of outreach for them. I think they are more willing to put up with what they see as harmless folk religion- but that would still be a minority. Most are just content to continue to believe the practices are "silly" at best, or distractions "from the Gospel" at worst.

 

[FireDragon76]

Part of the problem was that the Roman Catholic Church used this part of Christian popular piety as a weapon against Protestants- that is why there is so much emotional reaction from Protestants on this issue, and why Mary is seldom talked about, even though she appears in the Bible more than some subjects Protestants hold dear. Also, the Catholic Church elevated Mary to a place that seemed to rise above the kind of popular piety that had always existed alongside the kerygma of the Apostolic Faith.

Bernard of Clairvaux is a good example of how much Marian theology moved in the west in 800 years. Bernard had a relatively undeveloped Mariology, but he had a deep devotion to her. Yet by the middle of the 20th century, all sorts of scholastic doctrines about Mary had risen to prominence, including the idea she was a Co-Redemptrix and Co-Mediator, as well as Scholastic speculations as to whether she actually died or not. And that's very hard for Protestants to deal with, esp. as Protestantism was not initially a movement rooted in scholasticism (it was actually rooted in not only German humanism, but also mysticism, Luther was heavily influenced by the Rhineland mystics such as Eckhart and Tauler).

Personally, I like the Orthodox theology of Mary better. Yet in the Divine Liturgy you cannot worship God without also honoring Mary, even asking for her prayers. But as in Orthodox iconography, Mary is rarely if ever separated from her Son.

FWIW, John Wesley believed Mary was ever-virgin and free from having committed personal sins. But he was opposed to Roman Catholicism quite a bit. That attitude was very common among many old-school Protestants. Look up William Wordsworth's poem The Virgin some time, this was written at a time when the Church of England wasn't exactly having a Catholic revival, yet Wordsworth's words echo Bernard of Clairvaux's piety a great deal.

 

[newlightseven]

devoted to Mary and the saints instead of Jesus.. can a man have two masters?? Aren't you afraid to not devote only to Jesus??

 

[FireDragon76]

I actually believe the lack of devotion to Mary is responsible for a lot of modern oddities in Protestantism. Like the fact that in liberal churches there is more than a little bit of real flirtation with "Goddess Worship" (ironic, huh?), as well as over-use of feminine imagery for God. In conservative churches, you can get a very hypermasculine, chest-thumping kind of "muscular Christianity", which primarily sees spirituality as something men do, and women just tag along obediently without much voice. Indeed, there are very few distinguished Protestant "saints" or historical figures that were women, until relatively recently. Women have generally played a silent, supporting role in Protestantism until very recently, and now what you are getting is a lot of anger-driven feminist theology as a result.

What is missing is the kind of humility, courage, and gentleness many Christians see in Mary. The results are theological distortions.

A good book on Mary from an Anglican standpoint that analyzes the historical evidence and record of devotion to Mary and the saints, and also looks at what the Bible itself says about the subject:

 

[Lord's Servant]

Thank you for the link to the book and To me yes we can be devoted to Mary and God because when I pray to Mary I praise God in that prayer as well and didn't Martin Luther and Protestant reformers devoted to Mary? And more than 2/3 of Christians are devoted to Mary as well as her son Jesus Christ like Roman Catholic,Eastern Orthodox,Coptics, Anglicans,and some Lutherans as well

 

[newlightseven]

none. the apostles never preached it, the new testament never tells anything about it. the question really is, does ignoring devotion to mary affect the preaching of the gospel message? no.

time spent to mary is redundant, unnecessary. the gospel (without having to do devotions to mary) is still the same. (im not even going to the conclusion that it is idolatrous). personally its all fiction, it gains you nothing except the wrath of God. a case in point for Proverbs 14:12, 16:25

I agree.. the scripture does not support devotions to Mary or saints. In fact it says beware of Idols though.

Revelation 22:9 So I fell at his feet to worship to him. But he told me, "Do not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers who rely on the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."

Colossians 2:18 18Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels .....

The Ten Commandments
Thou Shalt have no other Gods before me

Mary nor the saints are apart of the trinity of the Almighty God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit who are 1. Trying to lump Mary and the Saints in with them is to error from the gospel of truth.

 

[Lord's Servant]

I actually believe the lack of devotion to Mary is responsible for a lot of modern oddities in Protestantism. Like the fact that in liberal churches there is more than a little bit of real flirtation with "Goddess Worship" (ironic, huh?), as well as over-use of feminine imagery for God. In conservative churches, you can get a very hypermasculine, chest-thumping kind of "muscular Christianity", which primarily sees spirituality as something men do, and women just tag along obediently without much voice. Indeed, there are very few distinguished Protestant "saints" or historical figures that were women, until relatively recently. Women have generally played a silent, supporting role in Protestantism until very recently, and now what you are getting is a lot of anger-driven feminist theology as a result.

What is missing is the kind of humility, courage, and gentleness many Christians see in Mary. The results are theological distortions.

A good book on Mary from an Anglican standpoint that analyzes the historical evidence and record of devotion to Mary and the saints, and also looks at what the Bible itself says about the subject:

That's true because I've heard a Anglican priest she said called God a she and used feminine verbs to describe God during a sermon

 

[Lord's Servant]

We are not worshipping them !!!

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Thank you for the link to the book and To me yes we can be devoted to Mary and God because when I pray to Mary I praise God in that prayer as well and didn't Martin Luther and Protestant reformers devoted to Mary? And more than 2/3 of Christians are devoted to Mary as well as her son Jesus Christ like Roman Catholic,Eastern Orthodox,Coptics, Anglicans,and some Lutherans as well

Yes Luther did, and we still do mark their days by commemorating them in readings, hymns and prayers. Not only the historic, pre reformation commemorations, but many post reformation saints as well. The Chruch is alive and continues to be served by the examples provided by the "cloud of witnesses"; and remains "in communion with the saints" for eternity.

 

[Lord's Servant]

Ah I see then I thought only Catholics honor them and a few Lutherans and Anglicans and I'm shocked that the Lutheran church honors the saints

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Ah I see then I thought only Catholics honor them and a few Lutherans and Anglicans and I'm shocked that the Lutheran church honors the saints

Why shocked? God is eternal, so is His Chruch; The faithful departed are alive in Christ and remain part of the Chruch, just as we are part of the Chruch. When we worship, we worship together with, as we say in our Liturgy "and therefore with Angels and Archangels (here other saints may be mentioned by name on their days) and all the company of heaven, we laud and magnify Your most glorious Name; ever more praising you and saying:" here follows the Sanctus.

Below are links the the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod's calandar, the same one we in Lutheran Chruch Canada use. Some Congregations observe less of these; some, depending on local usage, some who are not listed. I believe that in subsequent editions of our service books that more will be added. Presently, in LCC we are exploring heroes and martyrs of the reformation.
http://www.lcms.org/page.aspx?pid=435
http://www.lcms.org/page.aspx?pid=506
http://www.lcms.org/worship/sundays-seasons

And... a couple of other examples:

http://www.canadianlutheran.ca/category/saints-of-the-reformation/

Such a rich inheritance the Chruch has.

 

[Lord's Servant]

Thanks for the links

 

[amariselle]

Why shocked? God is eternal, so is His Chruch; The faithful departed are alive in Christ and remain part of the Chruch, just as we are part of the Chruch. When we worship, we worship together with, as we say in our Liturgy "and therefore with Angels and Archangels (here other saints may be mentioned by name on their days) and all the company of heaven, we laud and magnify Your most glorious Name; ever more praising you and saying:" here follows the Sanctus.

Below are links the the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod's calandar, the same one we in Lutheran Chruch Canada use. Some Congregations observe less of these; some, depending on local usage, some who are not listed. I believe that in subsequent editions of our service books that more will be added. Presently, in LCC we are exploring heroes and martyrs of the reformation.
http://www.lcms.org/page.aspx?pid=435
http://www.lcms.org/page.aspx?pid=506
http://www.lcms.org/worship/sundays-seasons

And... a couple of other examples:

http://www.canadianlutheran.ca/category/saints-of-the-reformation/

Such a rich inheritance the Chruch has.

This is interesting. I grew up attending a Lutheran Church, (which is part of the Lutheran Church of Canada) and we never "honoured" the saints.

There is the understanding that all true Christians are "saints", but nothing more was ever said, and no specific saints were ever named and singled out for honour.

I wonder how Lutheran Churches can vary so much when they belong to the same organization, in this case, the LCC.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

This is interesting. I grew up attending a Lutheran Church, (which is part of the Lutheran Church of Canada) and we never "honoured" the saints.

There is the understanding that all true Christians are "saints", but nothing more was ever said, and no specific saints were ever named and singled out for honour.

I wonder how Lutheran Churches can vary so much when they belong to the same organization, in this case, the LCC.

Doing such is not an article of faith; that is, a requirement for salvation. However, for those Congregations which choose to do so, it provides further context and continuity to our faith. We are not alone, and we are not facing things for the first time; others have gone before.

What province are you in/from? Ontario for me.

 

[amariselle]

Doing such is not an article of faith; that is, a requirement for salvation. However, for those Congregations which choose to do so, it provides further context and continuity to our faith. We are not alone, and we are not facing things for the first time; others have gone before.

What province are you in/from? Ontario for me.

Ontario as well, but the Northwestern part.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Ontario as well, but the Northwestern part.

I have traveled through Northwester Ontario. The parish where I grew up had a Finish Pastor who had served in Thunder Bay, another former Pastor came to us from Atakokan. I find that part of our province very beautiful!

Few realize just how big our country is until they drive across Ontario. It takes way longer to drive from Southwestern Ontario to the Manitoba border than it does to drive from the border to the BC border.