Can a Protestant be devoted to Mary And the saints ?

[Albion]

actually, that is not the case. St. Basil (4th century) does appeal to tradition

All right. I was making a point about the Fathers who were actually EARLY Church Fathers, whose testimony would tell us much about the Apostolic church.

I am aware that the Catholic churches refer to men who came three or four centuries after the establishment of the church of Christ and after many new concepts had imposed themselves upon the church. Tradition, for example.

Of course these men would, in their writings, be reflecting the changed church of their own times. That is how the ECF come to be cited in defense of Papal Supremacy, and I'm sure that you don't consider that doctrine to be Apostolic.

 

[JoeP222w]

I'm officially a United Methodist but I raised Catholic. I'm interested if any Protestants like Lutherans, Anglicans or any people from the High Church have any devotions to Blessed Virgin Mary or the saints. As for my devotions I use the Lutheran Rosary,the Pre-Trent Hail Mary,Angelus,Evangelical Praise of the Mother of God,Queen of Heaven prayer, and It is truly right to bless you prayer from a Eastern Orthodox hymn to Mary.What devotions do some Protestants use ,if any,towards Mary?

While Mary played a very important role in the history of mankind and she was very blessed by God, the Bible does not tell us to have devotions to Mary. Mary was just a human being blessed by God. She cannot hear your prayers, nor can anyone else who is dead.

We are not to pray to anyone but Jesus because He is God, and because He is our one and only intecessor. Why would you pray to anyone, or be devoted to anyone else? If it is any one else, it is clearly idolatry.

 

[~Anastasia~]

All right. I was making a point about the Fathers who were actually EARLY Church Fathers, whose testimony would tell us much about the Apostolic church.

I am aware that the Catholic churches refer to men who came three or four centuries after the establishment of the church of Christ and after many new concepts had imposed themselves upon the church. Tradition, for example.

Of course these men would, in their writings, be reflecting the changed church of their own times. That is how the ECF come to be cited in defense of Papal Supremacy, and I'm sure that you don't consider that doctrine to be Apostolic.

If you meant the ones that were THAT early, what Bible were they using?

 

[~Anastasia~]

It basically comes down to what it meant by the word devotion, don't you think? While the definition you offered us seems tame enough, most people would think, I believe, that in common usage it implies acts of devotion, or at least something more than just love or enthusiasm.

Yes, it has a lot to do with the meanings people assign to words, doesn't it?



And the remainder of my post refers to that sentence, and isn't directed at you personally, Albion.

It's always good to REALLY reflect on how we define the words when we use them, and on how we define the words when someone else uses them. Are we being charitable to others in our assumptions? Or do we automatically assume the worst? I've been shown that it's a worthwhile activity to have such awareness of ourselves, and focus on that part of the equation.

Worrying about what others do, especially if we condemn them, is much less spiritually beneficial.

 

[~Anastasia~]

When people say, "Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death", not only are they praying to someone other than God,

To "pray" is to ask. Today we often conflate it with worship, but historically it is simply asking for something.

If your pastor was there when you were about to die, and you asked him to pray for you, are you sinning? "Praying to someone other than God"?

(And we don't recite that prayer, but that's all it is.)

but to refer to Christians as sinners is diametrically opposite to the truth of the Word of God. We are dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus, and no historical figure can change that.

But then there is 1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.


If we still sin (and we all do) then we are sinners. Why read something else into it?

 

[Albion]

It's always good to REALLY reflect on how we define the words when we use them, and on how we define the words when someone else uses them. Are we being charitable to others in our assumptions? Or do we automatically assume the worst? I've been shown that it's a worthwhile activity to have such awareness of ourselves, and focus on that part of the equation.

Worrying about what others do, especially if we condemn them, is much less spiritually beneficial.

I can appreciate those sentiments, Anastasia, but at whom was this thread that we are on right now directed?

Why...it is about Protestants, most of whom presumably don't appreciate Mary sufficiently. Look at the title. It was not created in order to criticize or interrogate Catholics on account of their attitude towards the Virgin.

 

[Thekla]

All right. I was making a point about the Fathers who were actually EARLY Church Fathers, whose testimony would tell us much about the Apostolic church.

I am aware that the Catholic churches refer to men who came three or four centuries after the establishment of the church of Christ and after many new concepts had imposed themselves upon the church. Tradition, for example.

Of course these men would, in their writings, be reflecting the changed church of their own times. That is how the ECF come to be cited in defense of Papal Supremacy, and I'm sure that you don't consider that doctrine to be Apostolic.

Actually, appeals to tradition predate Basil (see Irenaeus, Papius 2nd century, Paul's instructions to keep traditions - as you know, etc.). As I'm not Catholic, the argument of bias from a Catholic position in order to impose Papal supremacy does not apply (but is revealing). You could check other early Christian groups - for example, the early and continuous Chaldean Christian teachings and beliefs, as an additional but somewhat isolated source.

Also, as you mentioned the Nicene Creed, though it does not appear in the NT, the creed is thought to have had some origin in the traditional creed of Jerusalem, "I believe in the Father, and in the Son, and in the Holy Spirit, and in one Baptism of repentance." Such an explicit statement re: the trinity is not found in the NT (except in Matthew 28, a passage that is tsk contested by some scholars and Christians).

 

[Albion]

Actually, appeals to tradition predate Basil (see Irenaeus, Papius 2nd century, Paul's instructions to keep traditions - as you know, etc.).

Paul was speaking of traditions not Holy Tradition, the alternative to Scripture, and he probably was not speaking of doctrinal matters at all. But as for ECFs from a really early period, sure, I would like to read what you are referring to.

As I'm not Catholic, the argument of bias from a Catholic position in order to impose Papal supremacy does not apply (but is revealing).

Well, it does apply to the extent that the way Rome made Papal Supremacy a doctrine was through an appeal to Tradition, the same methodology that your church uses.

 

[Thekla]

Paul was speaking of traditions not Holy Tradition, the alternative to Scripture, and he probably was not speaking of doctrinal matters at all. But as for ECFs from a really early period, sure, I would like to read what you are referring to.

Well, it does apply to the extent that the way Rome made Papal Supremacy a doctrine was through an appeal to Tradition, the same methodology that your church uses.

the writings of Irenaeus are available online. As the Arians (and other heretical teachers) relied on Scripture as well, surely history demonstrates that the interpretation of the text is not sufficient to prove right-teaching. The example I gave (the creed used in Jerusalem) and the ongoing Trinitarian debates - based on Scripture - illustrate the point. The Scriptures are indeed essential - how they are read is also a contributing factor re: doctrine. How to measure 'how they are read' leaves us with the statements of, for example, Irenaeus who notes the line of teaching he received from John, to Polycarp, to himself.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I can appreciate those sentiments, Anastasia, but at whom was this thread that we are on right now directed?

Why...it is about Protestants, most of whom presumably don't appreciate Mary sufficiently. Look at the title. It was not created in order to criticize or interrogate Catholics on account of their attitude towards the Virgin.

Actually, I wasn't concerning myself with either Catholics or Protestants, but simply in how we relate to and think of one another, all of us, as brothers and sisters in Christ.

Particularly seeing as how the thread was about a Protestant's relationship to Mary.

 

[HighCherub]

Mary is honored in all of proper Christianity- she is the principle for women to live by, having a moral affluence which a Christian woman should seek.

The historical accounts of Mary are meager outside what the Bible avails, but it's presumed by many scholars that Mary was very political in her defense of Jesus thereafter the Crucifixion.
It's very apparent that she was involved with the Apostles- naturally, being Jesus' mother, she would confide in them.

The problem with the Catholic Church is simply that they made too much a monolith of her- the Eastern Orthodox did the same. In reality, all of known Christianity exalted her as the Queen of Heaven for centuries.

People tend to only see insofar as a pope declaring it; declaring something that has already been presumed for a long time
and
calling it divine direction.

Ultimately, even beyond the otherwise rational notions like Mary being the Ark of the New Covenant, she is not a 'co redeemer'. That is simply a result of generations building upon a falsehood.

 

[PanDeVida]

I'm officially a United Methodist but I raised Catholic. I'm interested if any Protestants like Lutherans, Anglicans or any people from the High Church have any devotions to Blessed Virgin Mary or the saints. As for my devotions I use the Lutheran Rosary,the Pre-Trent Hail Mary,Angelus,Evangelical Praise of the Mother of God,Queen of Heaven prayer, and It is truly right to bless you prayer from a Eastern Orthodox hymn to Mary.What devotions do some Protestants use ,if any,towards Mary?

I'm not protestant, please forgive me for intruding, but can a protestant husband and wife be devoted to each other and also be devoted to Christ? Commonsense tells us, YES!

Was Elizabeth and The baby John in her womb devoted to Mary? Yes! "Whom am I that the Mother of the Lord should come to Me"... The Baby Leapt for Joy... If Elizabeth's PRAISE/WORDS to Mary and the baby John, LEAPING/ACTIONS for JOY is not devotion, then what is? So YEAH! You can have devotion to the Saints and the Greatest of Saints is Mary, No Doubt. Amen Words WITH Actions Speaks louder than Loud.