Can a Protestant be devoted to Mary And the saints ?

[pescador]

Why would one dismiss his or her whole family but his or her brother (Christ)?

As Catholic I cry for the protestants who go through life without the support of our Christian relatives.
Mary and the saints are company on the road to salvation.

They shed light on Christ our Lord and help us to follow him by their example aswell as by their intersession in heaven.

Hagiography and Mariology is very Christological in its very nature.

The problem is that it's not scriptural. You can invent anything you want outside of scripture and have a whole bunch of people agree with you, but that doesn't make it true.

If you honor Mary why not give the same honor to Joseph? Neither are divine and Joseph raised Jesus as much as Mary did. How about Jesus' brothers (and sisters?), who were also part of Jesus' family? Shouldn't they also be included as part of his family?

Also, there is no basis for singling out just a few people and calling them "saints". Everyone who has accepted Christ as their savior is sanctified, the root meaning of the word "saint".

I am devoted to God and live my life, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, in Christ. I don't need the add-ons.

 

[Albion]

Why would one dismiss his or her whole family but his or her brother (Christ)?

As Catholic I cry for the protestants who go through life without the support of our Christian relatives.
Mary and the saints are company on the road to salvation.

They shed light on Christ our Lord and help us to follow him by their example aswell as by their intersession in heaven.

As I read that, I think you've missed the mark quite badly.

First, you say we dismiss the family of Jesus. We do not.

Second, you say we do not have their support. How do you know that and why would you assume that they do not pray for all mortals as Scripture indicates?

Third, you imply that we do not benefit from their example. That's not so. Indeed, its explicit in the Holy Communion liturgy in my church.

That's quite a lot of unfortunate misses, I'm thinking.

 

[pescador]

As I read that, I think you've missed the mark quite badly.

First, you say we dismiss the family of Jesus. We do not.

Second, you say we do not have their support. How do you know that and why would you assume that they do not pray for all mortals as Scripture indicates?

Third, you imply that we do not benefit from their example. That's not so. Indeed, its explicit in the Holy Communion liturgy in my church.

That's quite a lot of unfortunate misses, I'm thinking.

First, do you give the same reverence to Joseph and Jesus' brothers (and sisters?) as you do to Mary? I have never heard anyone giving them the same status and worship. They were as much a part of Jesus' nuclear family as Mary. (Also, see my third point.)

Second, where in the Bible does it say that Jesus' family prays for all mortals?

Third, how do you benefit from their example? Mark wrote, "Then Jesus’ mother and brothers arrived. Standing outside, they sent someone in to call him. A crowd was sitting around him, and they told him, “Your mother and brothers are outside looking for you.” “Who are my mother and my brothers?” he asked. Then he looked at those seated in a circle around him and said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! Whoever does God’s will is my brother and sister and mother.” Clearly Jesus thought that his nuclear family, including his mother Mary, was no more important than any other people who did (and do) God's will.

If you want to celebrate communion as part of the liturgy of your church, go ahead. (Even though in the New Testament it was a full, celebratory meal.) But don't go beyond what the Bible clearly says.

 

[Phil 1:21]

Can a Protestant be devoted to Mary And the saints ?

I reserve my devotion for the Creator, not the creation.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I reserve my devotion for the Creator, not the creation.

Would it be wrong, in your estimation, for a man to be devoted to his wife? A mother to her children? Lifelong friends to one another? And so on?

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

The problem is that it's not scriptural. You can invent anything you want outside of scripture and have a whole bunch of people agree with you, but that doesn't make it true.

How fitting wasn't it that you brought up the topic of innovations seeing how your whole Sola Scriptura requirement is just that, a innovation made by Luther that dates back 500 years.

The " plank " is sometimes like boomerang in that way.


If you honor Mary why not give the same honor to Joseph? Neither are divine and Joseph raised Jesus as much as Mary did. How about Jesus' brothers (and sisters?), who were also part of Jesus' family? Shouldn't they also be included as part of his family?

But we do. We do honor and venerate saint Joseph quite a lot too.
There is however a very good and obvious reason as to why mother Mary hold a even higher position in the church and that rests on the fact that she is the mother of Christ's human nature and is the only person ever to hold that very intimate relation to Christ.

Christ had no earthly brothers or sisters but he had causins such as Judas Thaddeus and they sure are a part of our family in heaven, no doubt.


Also, there is no basis for singling out just a few people and calling them "saints". Everyone who has accepted Christ as their savior is sanctified, the root meaning of the word "saint".

I'm glad you're such a goodie twoshoe and a real saint, but I'm not. I have my sins I'm fighting and I'm wounded by the sins I've committed and even though I'm absolved through confession I'm left with some scars, some marks that cannot be exposed to the Holy God in heaven.
Since he's perfect we need to be perfect and unlike you I'm not so yet.


I am devoted to God and live my life, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, in Christ. I don't need the add-ons.

It's not add-ons its family and while you don't HAVE TO talk with your brethren and your uncles and aunts in order to make peace with your father it's better to stay in touch with them all.

The lone wanderer is a dangerous and lonesome road to walk. Christ is all you need, that part is true, but walking together with Christ as a horde and communion is a way of walking that in most cases helps you not to strive off of the road but to keep your eyes on the finish line.

 

[Phil 1:21]

Would it be wrong, in your estimation, for a man to be devoted to his wife? A mother to her children? Lifelong friends to one another? And so on?

If he erects statues of his wife, lights candles and burns incense to them, bows down before them and rattles off 53 rosary beads of "Hail Wifey" then I think we have a problem.

 

[Phil 1:21]

Since he's perfect we need to be perfect and unlike you I'm not so yet.

Do you think any of the people the RCC has canonized were perfect? (hint: Romans 3:23)

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

As I read that, I think you've missed the mark quite badly.

You read it wrongly and the pecking is a swing and a miss.

First, you say we dismiss the family of Jesus. We do not.

Without the perception is what I meant. If they support you and you ignore it our miss out on it due to a broken antenna then it makes little difference as you're clueless of their prayer and aid.

Second, you say we do not have their support. How do you know that and why would you assume that they do not pray for all mortals as Scripture indicates?

False, you concluded wrongly. Of course they pray for protestants too.

Third, you imply that we do not benefit from their example. That's not so. Indeed, its explicit in the Holy Communion liturgy in my church.

That's nice to hear and I'm glad I assumed wrongly.


That's quite a lot of unfortunate misses, I'm thinking.

Only one as I read it.

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

Do you think any of the people the RCC has canonized were perfect? (hint: Romans 3:23)

Quoting single passages of scripture to support your desired interpretation without reading it in its context is another absurd protestant technique that doesn't invite to a real discussion.

You and me both know that sola scripture is your innovation not mine anyway.

 

[Albion]

First, do you give the same reverence to Joseph and Jesus' brothers (and sisters?) as you do to Mary?

As far as my brief replies are concerned, I stuck strictly to what was written by our friend. There are plenty of qualifications and *ands, if, or buts* that could have been included but I decided to stay with the basic statements made by the other poster.

Where in the Bible does it say that Jesus family prays for all mortals?

It does indicate, in Revelation, that the whole heavenly host pray for mankind.

Third, how do you benefit from their example?

I'm not sure that benefit was the best word to have used. However, we Christians do acknowledge the saints as good examples to us. That's been the case since Apostolic times.

 

[Albion]

You and me both know that sola scripture is your innovation not mine anyway.

It might be worth mentioning at this point that the Early Church Fathers and even the Nicene Creed acknowledge Scripture, and only Scripture, as the basis for their theological conclusions...but not a one of them seems to have ever made any claims for Holy Tradition.

 

[Phil 1:21]

Quoting single passages of scripture to support your desired interpretation without reading it in its context is another absurd protestant technique that doesn't invite to a real discussion.

You and me both know that sola scripture is your innovation not mine anyway.

Translation: None of them were perfect, but since admitting it refutes my argument I'll pivot to something else.

 

[pescador]

Of course I believe in Sola Scriptura. Why should I believe in the inventions of men instead of the Word of God? The Catholic church has made many egregious errors.. I will mention only two: the Inquisition and the sexual abuse of children. There are many others as well.

It was said above that Jesus didn't have any brothers. So the section that I quoted from Mark is false? The Bible is wrong but Catholic doctrine is right in this case?

The veneration of Mary is unscriptural. We are to worship God, not famous people. The myths created about and the veneration of Mary and the other saints are contrary to scripture; they are the invention of men. If you don't believe in sola scriptura, then anyone can invent anything and claim it's the truth from God without any evidence.

I am a saint, as are all who are in Christ. If you think that depends on one's behavior then you should read what the Bible has to say about it. Believers are sanctified (and justified) by God's grace. There is nothing anyone can do to earn salvation. Everyone who is a Christian is a saint, since that's what the Bible says. Earning sainthood is salvation by works, not God's grace.

On another note, why aren't all believing Christians allowed to participate in Catholic communion? Are you more special to God than the rest of the body of Christ? Denying communion to others in Christ because they're not Catholics is a very dangerous, unscriptural practice.

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

Of course I believe in Sola Scriptura. Why should I believe in the inventions of men instead of the Word of God? The Catholic church has made many egregious errors.. I will mention only two: the Inquisition and the sexual abuse of children. There are many others as well.

Read up, no one has ever claimed that all the church does or what the humans serving in church do is infallible and amenable.
Infallibility is teachings about faith and morals and that's it.

Neither of your examples falls within what we consider infallible teachings or practices.

It was said above that Jesus didn't have any brothers. So the section that I quoted from Mark is false? The Bible is wrong but Catholic doctrine is right in this case?

No, but if you had a clue about the Greek used in Septuagint you wouldn't have asked such a uniformed question.

The Greek word used in mark for brothers is the same one as is used about cousins so each to his or her interpretation.

The reason we believe it's cousins is because it wouldn't have made any sense for Jesus to give his mother to the apostle if he has brothers who could take care of her.

It's a contextualized interpretation.

The veneration of Mary is unscriptural. We are to worship God, not famous people. The myths created about and the veneration of Mary and the other saints are contrary to scripture; they are the invention of men. If you don't believe in sola scriptura, then anyone can invent anything and claim it's the truth from God without any evidence.

It's what has been inherited by the first Christians, those living with the apostles and the first and persecuted generations.

It's not worship it's veneration and if your unable to grasp the difference then I'm sorry I can't help you.

You know that Christians had no NT for quite some time right?
Then what we refer to as scripture were shared as a larger oral tradition.

Then the gospels and later on the letters and the acts where written down.
Point is, not ALL of the oral Tradition was written down.

Something was so incorporated into the Christian faith that it was redundant to write it down.

For 1500 years the faithful understood this.

I am a saint, as are all who are in Christ. If you think that depends on one's behavior then you should read what the Bible has to say about it. Believers are sanctified (and justified) by God's grace. There is nothing anyone can do to earn salvation. Everyone who is a Christian is a saint, since that's what the Bible says. Earning sainthood is salvation by works, not God's grace.

Once again you don't know what I'm taking about. We sanctified by theosis, that being the Holy Spirit growing in our lives. The end goal is for us to let go of ourselves so that he's able to grow so much that our whole life is in him.

The holy spirit will sanctify us, but that doesn't happen at one Pentecostal service or so, but through a life in his service.

This doesn't mean we won't commit venial sins as that's a part of living in this world, but our will will be formed to serve God but ourselves.

On another note, why aren't all believing Christians allowed to participate in Catholic communion? Are you more special to God than the rest of the body of Christ? Denying communion to others in Christ because they're not Catholics is a very dangerous, unscriptural practice.

It's because Christ established one church and you and others with you has so far declined our invitation to join us in the body of Christ.
Furthermore communion is a outward signal of unity and to welcome people who don't share our faith would give a false picture of unity.

As a final note it's worth mentioning for the sake of clarification that it was a Catholic council that canonized the bible.

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

Translation: None of them were perfect, but since admitting it refutes my argument I'll pivot to something else.

Whatever...
Have fun.

 

[~Anastasia~]

If he erects statues of his wife, lights candles and burns incense to them, bows down before them and rattles off 53 rosary beads of "Hail Wifey" then I think we have a problem.

That wasn't the question.

You don't have to reply of course. But the conversation was ...

Can a Protestant be devoted to Mary and the Saints?

de·vo·tion
dəˈvōSH(ə)n/
noun
love, loyalty, or enthusiasm for a person, activity, or cause.

So rephrased - Can a Protestant have love for Mary and the Saints?

And you replied that you would reserve your devotion for the Creator, not the creation.

So I asked if you would feel it to be wrong for persons to be devoted to other persons (creation).

I'm really not looking to argue. It's just that folks sometimes jump to conclusions about what others are doing. I was just pointing out the question that was actually asked.

I HOPE we have love for Mary, the Apostles, and those who have gone before us, heroes of the faith. If we can't love them, I suspect we are not fulfilling Christ's commands to love one another.

I'm not Roman Catholic by the way, and not interested in arguing their devotional practices one way or another.

Peace to you.

 

[Thekla]

It might be worth mentioning at this point that the Early Church Fathers and even the Nicene Creed acknowledge Scripture, and only Scripture, as the basis for their theological conclusions...but not a one of them seems to have ever made any claims for Holy Tradition.

actually, that is not the case. St. Basil (4th century) does appeal to tradition, and the teachings were used to "measure" the heterodox teachings. On honoring the Virgin Mary, evidence is that she was honored early on, and in Churches (ex. Chaldean) that were not in communion.

 

[Albion]

That wasn't the question.

You don't have to reply of course. But the conversation was ...

Can a Protestant be devoted to Mary and the Saints?

de·vo·tion
dəˈvōSH(ə)n/
noun
love, loyalty, or enthusiasm for a person, activity, or cause.

So rephrased - Can a Protestant have love for Mary and the Saints?

It basically comes down to what it meant by the word devotion, don't you think? While the definition you offered us seems tame enough, most people would think, I believe, that in common usage it implies acts of devotion, or at least something more than just love or enthusiasm.

 

[pescador]

So what is this extreme devotion to Mary? She gave birth to Jesus and raised him, told him to make some wine, and tried (with his brothers) to visit him and was rejected. And she was there when her son died. She is a minor character in scripture.

She is no more worthy of devotion than other people that figured in Jesus' life. Jesus said nothing about venerating his mother, never mind being his adviser in heaven. There is nothing in scripture that even remotely suggests that we should pray to anyone other than God.

When people say, "Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death", not only are they praying to someone other than God, but to refer to Christians as sinners is diametrically opposite to the truth of the Word of God. We are dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus, and no historical figure can change that.