666 is probably just money

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jgr said in post #74:

Calvin may have been momentarily distracted, as there is no discernible connection between Daniel 9:27 and 2 Thes. 2:4.

The connection is they will both be fulfilled by the future Antichrist.

For when Daniel 9:27 says "for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate", this is the same as "the abomination that maketh desolate" in Daniel 11:31, when the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") will make a future, third Jewish temple in Jerusalem spiritually desolate by placing a (possibly android) image of himself (Revelation 13:15) in the holy place of the temple (Matthew 24:15) to be worshipped, and by sitting himself (at least one time) in the temple and proclaiming himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36).

In Daniel 9:27, the original Hebrew word (kanaph: H3671) translated as "overspreading" can mean a wing (1 Kings 6:24), but it doesn't have to mean that every time it's used. For it can also mean "the uttermost part" (Isaiah 24:16). The "overspreading" or "uttermost part" nature of the abomination of desolation could mean it will involve not just the holy place of the temple, but the entire temple. For example, what the Antichrist could do is engrave the gematrial number of his name, "666" (Revelation 13:17b-18), all over the temple, within and without, top to bottom, thereby completely and utterly defiling it, rendering it spiritually desolate.

The Antichrist will be Luciferian, bringing the world into the conscious and open worship of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9), and railing against YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36). He will want to utterly defile the future, third Jewish temple to YHWH in Jerusalem (built by the ultra-Orthodox Jews) so he can poke his finger in YHWH's eye, so to speak, and purportedly show to the world (what he could call) "YHWH's powerlessness to defend the place that he himself has chosen" (cf. Zechariah 3:2). The Antichrist could claim that his ability to commit the abomination of desolation with impunity proves (in his words) "that YHWH cannot thwart the will of our Lord Lucifer, who empowers me" (cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:9, Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9).

But YHWH will permit the Antichrist and Lucifer to rule the world for less than four years (Daniel 12:11-12), before they are utterly defeated at Jesus Christ's Second Coming (Revelation 19:19 to 20:3).
 
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jgr

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The connection is they will both be fulfilled by the future Antichrist.

Not according to Calvin.

"To some we seem slanderous and petulant, when we call the Roman Pontiff Antichrist. But those who think so perceive not that they are bringing a charge of intemperance against Paul, after whom we speak, nay, in whose very words we speak. But lest any one object that Paul’s words have a different meaning, and are wrested by us against the Roman Pontiff, I wil1 briefly show that they can only be understood of the Papacy. Paul says that Antichrist would sit in the temple of God (2 Thess. 2:4). In another passage, the Spirit, portraying him in the person of Antiochus, says that his reign would be with great swelling words of vanity (Dan. 7:25). Hence we infer that his tyranny is more over souls than bodies, a tyranny set up in opposition to the spiritual kingdom of Christ."
 
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jgr

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King James (the King James):

"Rome is the Seat of the Antichrist."

"...Popery is in deed The mysterie of iniquitie..."

"The Pope is Antichrist..."

"Antichrist and his clergie...not only infect the earth...but rule also over the whole..."


From the 1769 King James Bible Introduction:

"...writing in defence of the Truth, (which hath given such a blow unto that man of Sin, as will not be healed,)"
 
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jgr quoted Calvin in post #76:

Paul says that Antichrist would sit in the temple of God (2 Thess. 2:4).

That's right. But this hasn't been fulfilled yet.

For note again (as in section 5 of post #56 above) that no man ever sat in the Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaimed himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36,31, cf. Matthew 24:15), just as no man ever fulfilled other detailed references to the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the "beast") in Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 16:2-16, Revelation 19:19-21, and 2 Thessalonians 2:8-9. Any mistaken teaching which claims the Antichrist has already come and gone could be employed in our future by the real Antichrist to fool some Christians into thinking he isn't the Antichrist.

Revelation 11:1-2, Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36, and 2 Thessalonians 2:4 require there will be a third Jewish temple in the earthly Jerusalem during the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. This third temple will coexist with the Church like the second temple did (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17), and like the temple building in heaven does (Revelation 11:19). The third temple could be built on Jerusalem's Temple Mount by the ultra-Orthodox Jews, after they (or great earthquakes) clear the site by destroying the Muslim Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque. Shortly after they build the temple, the Antichrist could attack and defeat them, and a false Messiah leading them (Daniel 11:22).

Then the Antichrist could "cut" a peace treaty with them and their false "Messiah" (Daniel 9:26a, Daniel 11:23a), permitting them to keep the temple, and to continue to (mistakenly) perform the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices in front of it, for at least seven years (Daniel 9:27a), so long as they give up the outer court of the temple (Revelation 11:2a) to the Muslims, so the Muslims can rebuild the Al Aqsa Mosque on the southern end of the Temple Mount and resume worship there. The ultra-Orthodox Jews could grudgingly agree to this, if the only other option is for them to lose the temple entirely. They could then build a high wall between the temple and the mosque in order to keep the temple from being "defiled".

But then, only some 3.5 years after making the peace treaty, the Antichrist will break the treaty, attack the temple, stop the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices, place the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the temple (Daniel 9:27b, Daniel 11:31, Matthew 24:15), and then sit himself (at least one time) in the temple and proclaim himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). Thus could begin the Antichrist's literal, 3.5-year Luciferian (Satanic) worldwide reign of terror (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9; 2 Thessalonians 2:9).

At the very end of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, the Antichrist (Daniel 11:45) and the world's armies will pillage Jerusalem right before Jesus Christ's Second Coming (Zechariah 14:2-21). And at the Second Coming, there will be tremendous earth changes in the vicinity of Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:4-5). These events could result in all of Jerusalem's structures, including the third temple and the Wailing Wall (also called the Western Wall), being broken down so that not one stone will be left upon another (Luke 19:44, Matthew 24:2). Then the returned Jesus (Zechariah 14:4, Acts 1:11-12) will rebuild Jerusalem and make it the capital of the world (Zechariah 14:8-19, Micah 4:1-4). He will also build a fourth temple there (Zechariah 14:20-21, Zechariah 6:12-13). It will serve a similar function for the Church during the future Millennium (of Revelation 20:4-6) as the second temple served for the Church in the 1st century AD (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17), and as the temple building in heaven (Revelation 11:19) serves for those in heaven (Revelation 7:15).

--

One reason the third Jewish temple of Revelation 11:1-2, Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36, and 2 Thessalonians 2:4 hasn't been built yet is the Israeli government has been careful to protect the Muslim Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque ever since Israel took military control of the Temple Mount back in 1967. For the Israeli government knows if the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel were to destroy these buildings (the third-holiest sites in Islam) in order to clear the Temple Mount for a third Jewish temple, this could mean the end of the current state of Israel. For enraged Muslim armies and militias could attack Israel en masse in an all-out jihad and defeat it completely.

While the ultra-Orthodox Jews are no doubt aware of this danger, they believe the third Jewish temple must nonetheless be built exactly where the prior Jewish temples stood: right over the Rock of Sacrifice (the Rock of the Dome of the Rock) on which Abraham almost sacrificed Isaac. And the ultra-Orthodox Jews could be brought to the point where they will even desire to see the end of the current, secular state of Israel, believing that only in its demise will God make it possible for them to establish a new, perfectly ultra-Orthodox, theocratic city-state of (what they could call) "the True Israel". They could establish this within the walled Old City of Jerusalem (which contains the Temple Mount), and build on the Temple Mount a third Jewish temple before which they can restart the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices, and perfectly keep every jot and tittle of the Mosaic law, and banish every non-kosher person and thing from ever entering within Old Jerusalem's "Holy walls".

(This could point to another reason why the current, secular government of Israel doesn't want to let the ultra-Orthodox Jews build a third Jewish temple: out of fear the secular authority of the Israeli government could subsequently get undermined. For once temple practices resumed and a priesthood came into power, a creep toward theocracy could ensue in Israel, where priests and rabbis would become powerful enough to replace the secular leaders. So the latter could want to simply place a hold on any drift in that direction by forbidding the building of a third Jewish temple.)

Something which could help to bring the ultra-Orthodox Jews to the point of desiring to see the end of the current, secular state of Israel would be them getting squeezed out of their settlements in Samaria and Judaea (also called the West Bank), and in eastern Jerusalem, as part of a peace deal handing these areas over to a Palestinian state. For the ultra-Orthodox Jews (rightly) see Samaria, Judaea, and Jerusalem as the historically most important and holy parts of the land promised by God to Israel since the time of Abraham (Exodus 32:13). So when they start to get squeezed out of these areas, in a rage they could suddenly mass in their tens of thousands, armed with machine guns (which they're allowed to have for self-defense against the Palestinians). And led by three huge bulldozers, they could march as a great army to the Old City of Jerusalem, and go up onto the Temple Mount and completely destroy the Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque.

(A fear of the ultra-Orthodox Jews resorting to violence could be one of the reasons the current Israeli government refuses to hinder Jewish settlement activity in Samaria, Judaea, and eastern Jerusalem. It could also be one of the reasons the U.S. government has been convinced by Israel to back off from requiring any such hindrance, even though the U.S. sometimes complains about the settlements. But if down the road, the current, geriatric, lifeless leadership of Fatah is replaced by a younger, very-energetic leadership, which is able to whip up pressure from the Middle East's Arab masses and governments (not to mention from even non-Arab governments, such as the French or the EU) for a Palestinian state, and if this pressure becomes so extreme it begins to threaten to overthrow U.S. hegemony over the Arab world, the U.S. could decide to force Israel to surrender all the Jewish settlements to a Palestinian state. Also, there could be a gradual change within Israel itself, until a majority of Israelis, including civilians, army leaders, judges, etc., decide it's time to remove the current, hard-line Israeli government, and replace it, via elections, with a more liberal government which will be willing to implement a two-state solution with the Palestinians.)

Besides the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel getting squeezed out of their settlements at some point in our future, something else which could help to tip the scales toward them becoming violent would be the rising up of a miracle-working, ultra-Orthodox Jewish false "Messiah" (cf. Matthew 24:24), who could tell the ultra-Orthodox Jews something like:

"God says that now is the time for us to take back religious control of the Holy Temple Mount, and rid it of all the detestable shrines which the Muslims have placed upon it. We are to sanctify it in the name of our God, so that we might rebuild His Holy Temple there. Listen, my brethren, fear not the Muslims' reaction when we retake religious control of the Holy Temple Mount. For God Himself is with us. He will protect us perfectly. Have I not shown you His mighty Power working through Me? Fear not any men, but fear only our Mighty God, who now commands us to rebuild His Holy Temple at the place which He determined from the time of our Father Abraham. Our God gave us back the Holy Temple Mount way back in 1967 C.E. But what have we done with it over all the time since then? Nothing! How can this be? How can we have allowed some merely-secular, so-called 'Israeli' government invented by sinful men to keep us, God's holy people, from even setting foot back on the Temple Mount, and to let it remain under the religious control of the vile Muslims? Let us all rise up now, my brethren! Let us all rise up, in the name of our God, and let us do mighty exploits to the Glory of His Holy Name!"

With such rhetoric, accompanied by his working of amazing miracles (cf. Matthew 24:24), a false ultra-Orthodox Jewish "Messiah" in Israel could whip up the ultra-Orthodox Jews there into a religious frenzy, so that they will all with great zeal, and without any fear, march in their tens of thousands to the Temple Mount, and take total control of it, and then rejoice there and dance and sing holy hymns to God "for His great and mighty Victory".

Something else which could help to tip the scales toward the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel becoming violent is the occurrence of a series of great earthquakes in Jerusalem which will severely damage the Dome of the Rock and Al Aqsa Mosque, to the point where they will stop being used. For the ultra-Orthodox Jews could see this as (in their words) "Clearly a portent from God that He will no longer allow the Muslims to trample His Holy Mountain. We must now reassert Jewish religious control over it and rebuild His Holy Temple there".

Something else which could help tip the scales toward the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel becoming violent is their finding out the location of the Ark of the Covenant, which could be buried under an ancient ruined fort in the desert east of Jerusalem. The Copper Scroll could contain the clues as to where the Ark is buried in the fort (e.g. "under the third step"). The Ark could have been located there already with ground-penetrating radar by some non-religious treasure hunters, but the Israeli government could be holding up a digging permit to retrieve the Ark, because the government is afraid the ultra-Orthodox Jews could see a retrieval of the Ark as (in their words) "An unmistakable sign from God that now is the time for us to rebuild His Holy Temple". So the Israeli government has a motive to keep the location of the buried Ark top secret.

Fearing that some ultra-Orthodox Jews could nonetheless somehow discover the top secret location of the buried Ark, and go there in the dead of night and dig it up without a permit from, or any notification to, the Israeli government, the government could have placed armed guards and surveillance cameras to watch over the buried Ark's location day and night.

But if the buried Ark's location is found out by some ultra-Orthodox Jews, they could round up tens of thousands of their fellows, armed with machine guns, and they could suddenly swarm the location, overwhelm any armed guards there, and hold off any subsequently-arrived IDF troops and tanks long enough to get the Ark out of the ground. Once it's out and the IDF troops actually see it, it's unlikely they're going to try to stop the ultra-Orthodox Jews from parading it to the Temple Mount, they will be in such awe.

Also, once the ultra-Orthodox Jews make it to the Temple Mount and begin completely destroying the Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque, it's unlikely the IDF troops are going to open fire, whether with lead bullets or rubber bullets, on their fellow Jews, slaughtering or injuring hundreds or thousands of them. Also, increasing numbers of IDF officers are very religious, so they could order their troops to stand down. And if some non-religious officers convince their troops to employ tear gas in an attempt to simply disperse the ultra-Orthodox Jews without harming them, this could be thwarted by the ultra-Orthodox Jews having brought along gas masks (which, ironically, could have been issued to them by the Israeli government itself, back when there was a fear Saddam Hussein would send Scud missiles into Israel with chemical weapons payloads).

So the Israeli government could be unable to prevent the complete destruction of the Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque at the hands of the ultra-Orthodox Jews. And so the Israeli government could be unable to prevent the subsequent, retaliatory destruction of the state of Israel at the hands of enraged Muslim armies and militias.
 
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jgr

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For note again (as in section 5 of post #56 above) that no man ever sat in the Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaimed himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4)

In every instance where Paul uses "temple" in his epistles, it is a reference to the spiritual, not a physical, temple. Hence Calvin's description of antichrist's occupancy, in the day and age in which Calvin lived:

"Hence we infer that his tyranny is more over souls than bodies, a tyranny set up in opposition to the spiritual kingdom of Christ."

2 Thes. 2:4 Greek

3485 [e]
naon
ναὸν
temple
N-AMS


1 Corinthians 3:16 N-NMS
GRK: οἴδατε ὅτι ναὸς θεοῦ ἐστὲ
NAS: Do you not know that you are a temple of God
KJV: that ye are the temple of God, and
INT: Know you that temple of God you are

1 Corinthians 3:17 N-AMS
GRK: τις τὸν ναὸν τοῦ θεοῦ
NAS: destroys the temple of God,
KJV: defile the temple of God,
INT: anyone the temple of God

1 Corinthians 3:17 N-NMS
GRK: ὁ γὰρ ναὸς τοῦ θεοῦ
NAS: will destroy him, for the temple of God
KJV: destroy; for the temple of God is
INT: indeed [the] temple of God

1 Corinthians 6:19 N-NMS
GRK: σῶμα ὑμῶν ναὸς τοῦ ἐν
NAS: that your body is a temple of the Holy
KJV: body is the temple of the Holy Ghost
INT: body of you a temple of the in

2 Corinthians 6:16 N-DMS
GRK: δὲ συνκατάθεσις ναῷ θεοῦ μετὰ
NAS: agreement has the temple of God
KJV: agreement hath the temple of God
INT: moreover agreement a temple of God with

2 Corinthians 6:16 N-NMS
GRK: ἡμεῖς γὰρ ναὸς θεοῦ ἐσμὲν
NAS: with idols? For we are the temple of the living
KJV: ye are the temple of the living God;
INT: we indeed a temple of God are

Ephesians 2:21 N-AMS
GRK: αὔξει εἰς ναὸν ἅγιον ἐν
NAS: into a holy temple in the Lord,
KJV: unto an holy temple in the Lord:
INT: increases to a temple holy in

2 Thessalonians 2:4 N-AMS
GRK: εἰς τὸν ναὸν τοῦ θεοῦ
NAS: that he takes his seat in the temple of God,
KJV: sitteth in the temple of God, shewing
INT: in the temple of God

Any mistaken teaching which claims the Antichrist has already come and gone could be employed in our future by the real Antichrist to fool some Christians into thinking he isn't the Antichrist.

Any mistaken teaching which rejects proven historical fulfillments also rejects the faith and sacrifice of those who endured them to procure the spiritual liberties which we enjoy today.
 
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jgr said in post #79:

In every instance where Paul uses "temple" in his epistles, it is a reference to the spiritual, not a physical, temple.

Note that nothing requires that. For in 2 Thessalonians 2:4, like in Revelation 11:1-2 (written down by the apostle John), the original Greek word (naos: G3485) translated as "temple" is the same word used for an actual, physical temple in John 2:20, Matthew 23:16, Matthew 23:17, Matthew 23:21, Matthew 23:35, Matthew 27:5, Matthew 27:51, Mark 15:38, Luke 1:9, Luke 1:21, Luke 1:22, and Luke 23:45.

Also, note that while the Church as a whole is a figurative temple building (Ephesians 2:21), it's not the only temple of God. For it coexisted with the literal, second temple building which was in Jerusalem in the 1st century AD (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17), just as the Church coexisted, and still coexists today, with the literal temple building in heaven (Revelation 11:19), and with the temple of Jesus Christ's individual human body (John 2:21), and with the temple of every Christian's individual human body (1 Corinthians 6:19). And if the Church-as-a-whole temple can currently coexist with all these other temples of God, it will be able to coexist with the future, third, earthly, literal temple building which Revelation 11:1-2, Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36, and 2 Thessalonians 2:4 show will exist in Jerusalem during the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. This third temple building will be accepted by God as a valid temple, just as the second temple building was accepted by God as a valid temple, even at the time of Jesus' first coming (Matthew 23:21), and even at the time of the early Church (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17).

For the ultra-Orthodox Jews will build the third temple, and they will offer animal sacrifices in front of it, under the auspices of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, which remains holy before God (Romans 7:12). This is why God still keeps an ark of the Old Covenant Mosaic law in His temple building in heaven (Revelation 11:19), and why it was possible for the apostle Paul one time to involve himself with the second temple's Old Covenant Mosaic law practices without him committing sin (Acts 21:20-26; 1 Corinthians 9:20). This isn't to say the Jesus-denying motives of the ultra-Orthodox Jews will be holy before God, but that the Old Covenant Mosaic law third temple in itself and its animal sacrifices in themselves will be holy before God, because the Old Covenant Mosaic law in itself remains holy before God (Romans 7:12), even though its letter is no longer meant to be practiced by people (Romans 7:6), because the New Covenant has been inaugurated by Jesus Christ and His once-for-all-time sacrifice on the Cross for our sins (Hebrews 10:1-23, Matthew 26:28).

jgr said in post #79:

Any mistaken teaching which rejects proven historical fulfillments also rejects the faith and sacrifice of those who endured them to procure the spiritual liberties which we enjoy today.

Note that the future Antichrist will permit no spiritual liberties at all. For he will require everyone in the world to consciously and openly worship Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") on the pain of death by beheading (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 20:4-6).

Please cease to leave Christians alive today unprepared to face this future tyranny, which has never been fulfilled.

Also, note that Calvin procured no spiritual liberties for Servetus, but instead murdered him in the name of Christ, making Protestantism no different than the Inquisition.
 
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jgr

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Note that nothing requires that. For in 2 Thessalonians 2:4, like in Revelation 11:1-2 (written down by the apostle John), the original Greek word (naos: G3485) translated as "temple" is the same word used for an actual, physical temple in John 2:20, Matthew 23:16, Matthew 23:17, Matthew 23:21, Matthew 23:35, Matthew 27:5, Matthew 27:51, Mark 15:38, Luke 1:9, Luke 1:21, Luke 1:22, and Luke 23:45.

You are correct; the same word is used to denote a physical temple. But you missed the point. As shown in the citations, when Paul uses the word in his epistles to the churches, including 2 Thes. 2:4, he uses it in the exclusively spiritual sense i.e. the temple within each believer. And it is this temple which, he informs the Thessalonians, the man of sin will occupy, and in which he will seek to usurp God's rightful place.

Also, note that Calvin procured no spiritual liberties for Servetus, but instead murdered him in the name of Christ, making Protestantism no different than the Inquisition.

Surely you jest. The death toll attributable to the Reformers, while indefensible, is an infinitesimal fraction of the 50 million or more slaughtered over more than 1200 years by the papacy. There is nothing to remotely compare before or since.

The argument that "Protestantism no different than the Inquisition" is dead on departure.
 
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jgr said in post #81:

As shown in the citations, when Paul uses the word in his epistles to the churches, including 2 Thes. 2:4, he uses it in the exclusively spiritual sense i.e. the temple within each believer.

Note that nothing requires that the apostle Paul is using naos in 2 Thessalonians 2:4 in a spiritual sense, instead of referring to a literal Jewish temple building, the same future one in Jerusalem referred to in Revelation 11:1-2, Matthew 24:15, and Daniel 11:31,36, the outer court of which will eventually be given to the Gentiles (Revelation 11:2), the same Gentiles who will later tread the earthly Jerusalem under foot for 42 literal months:

Revelation 11:2 But the court which is without [outside] the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

This refers to a literal outer court of a Jewish temple building which will be on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem during the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, just as Matthew 24:15 and Daniel 11:31 refer to that temple's holy place (inner sanctum), and just as 2 Thessalonians 2:4 and Daniel 11:36 refer to the future Antichrist eventually sitting in that temple (at least one time) and proclaiming himself God.

jgr said in post #81:

The death toll attributable to the Reformers, while indefensible, is an infinitesimal fraction of the 50 million or more slaughtered over more than 1200 years by the papacy.

Can you quote the original historical records which support the claim of 50 million deaths, so we can see what they say?

Also, how many people does the RCC claim it killed, and how has this claim been proven too low from original historical records?

Also, what is the RCC's current view regarding the Wars and Inquisitions of the Reformation and Counter-Reformation?

Also, why isn't the papacy killing anyone today if it is the Antichrist, as the Reformers mistakenly thought?

Or did the papacy stop being the Antichrist at some point, according to current Reformed doctrine?

jgr said in post #81:

The argument that "Protestantism no different than the Inquisition" is dead on departure.

Note that is isn't, in that both employed (in your own words) "indefensible" killings of people who disagreed with them doctrinally.
 
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Note that nothing requires that the apostle Paul is using naos in 2 Thessalonians 2:4 in a spiritual sense, instead of referring to a literal Jewish temple building, the same future one in Jerusalem referred to in Revelation 11:1-2, Matthew 24:15, and Daniel 11:31,36, the outer court of which will eventually be given to the Gentiles (Revelation 11:2), the same Gentiles who will later tread the earthly Jerusalem under foot for 42 literal months:

Revelation 11:2 But the court which is without [outside] the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

This refers to a literal outer court of a Jewish temple building which will be on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem during the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, just as Matthew 24:15 and Daniel 11:31 refer to that temple's holy place (inner sanctum), and just as 2 Thessalonians 2:4 and Daniel 11:36 refer to the future Antichrist eventually sitting in that temple (at least one time) and proclaiming himself God.

The first reference to "temple" in Revelation is that of a spiritual temple, consistent with God as Spirit:

Revelation 3:12
Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Confirmed in Rev. 21:22:
And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

Can you quote the original historical records which support the claim of 50 million deaths, so we can see what they say?

Legitimate question. This is a balanced objective eclectic source.

Also, what is the RCC's current view regarding the Wars and Inquisitions of the Reformation and Counter-Reformation?

Pope Apologizes for Killing Protestants

Also, why isn't the papacy killing anyone today if it is the Antichrist, as the Reformers mistakenly thought?

The spiritual reenlightenment resulting from the Reformers' faith and sacrifice, and God's grace and mercy, brought an end to its depredations. That's quite an outcome of mistaken thinking.


More to follow.
 
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jgr said in post #83:

The first reference to "temple" in Revelation is that of a spiritual temple, consistent with God as Spirit:

Revelation 3:12
Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Note that even though the first reference to "temple" in Revelation is spiritual, referring figuratively to the Church, this doesn't require every reference to "temple" in Revelation is spiritual.

For example, Revelation 11:19 refers to a literal temple building in heaven, which coexists with the temple of Jesus Christ's individual human body (John 2:21), and with the temple of every Christian's individual human body (1 Corinthians 6:19), and with the temple of the Church as a whole (Ephesians 2:20-22).

jgr said in post #83:

The first reference to "temple" in Revelation is that of a spiritual temple, consistent with God as Spirit . . .

Regarding "consistent with God as Spirit", note that God is also in the flesh (John 1:1,14, Luke 24:39).

jgr said in post #83:

Confirmed in Rev. 21:22:
And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

Note that Revelation 21:22 doesn't confirm that every reference to "temple" in Revelation must be spiritual. For Revelation 21:22 refers to the literal city of New Jerusalem, which will eventually descend from heaven to the New Earth (Revelation 21:1-8).

jgr said in post #83:

The spiritual reenlightenment resulting from the Reformers' faith and sacrifice, and God's grace and mercy, brought an end to its depredations. That's quite an outcome of mistaken thinking.

Note that nothing the Reformers said or did requires the papacy was the Antichrist.

Also, are you saying the Reformers reformed the papacy so it's no longer the Antichrist?

If so, didn't you say in an early post that the papacy still believes it's God/Christ, it's just not saying that publicly right now?

jgr said in post #83:

Pope Apologizes for Killing Protestants

How can the papacy apologize if it still believes it's God/Christ?
 
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Dither

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This is the antichrist,

Axial tilt - Wikipedia

Stop hating each other and looking for scapegoats.

QUOTE:
Earth currently has an axial tilt of about 23.4°.[7] This value remains about the same relative to a stationary orbital plane throughout the cycles of axial precession.[8] But the ecliptic (i.e., Earth's orbit) moves due to planetary perturbations, and the obliquity of the ecliptic is not a fixed quantity. At present, it is decreasing at a rate of about 47″ per century (see details in Short term below).
 
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Uncle Mikey

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666 is the Carbon Atom.

We are Carbon Based Life Forms.

The number of Man.

Simple and to the point.

Now stop pointing your finger at the Jews, the Muslims the Popes and everyone else, and focus on the sinner in the mirror.

YOU are the Beast.

Wise up and humble yourselves.
 
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Uncle Mikey said in post #86:

The number of Man.

Revelation 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

Note that this, like the original Greek, can and does mean six hundred and sixty-six is "the number of a man", meaning the gematrial number of the name (Revelation 13:17c-18, Revelation 15:2) of the individual man who is the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast"). Six hundred and sixty-six isn't the gematrial number of the names of all men, or the gematrial number of the word "man".

Uncle Mikey said in post #86:

666 is the Carbon Atom.

We are Carbon Based Life Forms.

Note that so is Jesus Christ with regard to His humanity (John 1:14, Luke 24:39). And He isn't the Antichrist.

Beware the Gnostic/antichrist lie that Christ isn't in the flesh (2 John 1:7; 1 John 4:3).

Uncle Mikey said in post #86:

666 is the Carbon Atom.

Note that the carbon atom isn't "Six hundred threescore and six" (Revelation 13:18b), but only three separate sizes: 6 - 6 - 6, with regard to its number of protons, neutrons, and electrons. And there's nothing at all evil about carbon in itself.

Indeed, all diamonds are made of pure carbon.
 
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Uncle Mikey

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Here is wisdom...

When God says "here is Wisdom", you better believe it.

We are talking Wisdom that has taken Mankind thousands of years to comprehend, not silly "Gematria" that any cave dweller can scribble down.

Note that so is Jesus Christ with regard to His humanity

Yep, the likeness of sinful flesh...

Romans 8:3
"For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh"


I.e. a Carbon Based Life Form.

Indeed, all diamonds are made of pure carbon...

You mean like the Diamonds on the forehead... where the Mark is?

Ezekiel 3:9 (Holman)
"I have made your forehead like a diamond, harder than flint. Don't be afraid of them or discouraged by the look on their faces, even though they are a rebellious house"

What are ashes made of?

What are we made of?

Genesis 18:27

"And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, which am but dust and ashes"

If Abraham says we are made of Carbon, I believe it.
 
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Uncle Mikey

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Don't forget that smoke is Carbon...

Revelation 9:2
"And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit"


I can do this all day.

What do we breath out?

Carbon Dioxide?

2 Samuel 22:9
"There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it"


What are coals made of?

Is it so hard to believe that God knew about the Elements before we did?

Was the Bible written by cavemen, thus they knew nothing of the Periodic Table?

Is this what I'm hearing from you people?

That the Bible really wasn't written by God?

:doh:
 
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jgr

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Note that even though the first reference to "temple" in Revelation is spiritual, referring figuratively to the Church, this doesn't require every reference to "temple" in Revelation is spiritual.

For example, Revelation 11:19 refers to a literal temple building in heaven, which coexists with the temple of Jesus Christ's individual human body (John 2:21), and with the temple of every Christian's individual human body (1 Corinthians 6:19), and with the temple of the Church as a whole (Ephesians 2:20-22).



Regarding "consistent with God as Spirit", note that God is also in the flesh (John 1:1,14, Luke 24:39).



Note that Revelation 21:22 doesn't confirm that every reference to "temple" in Revelation must be spiritual. For Revelation 21:22 refers to the literal city of New Jerusalem, which will eventually descend from heaven to the New Earth (Revelation 21:1-8).



Note that nothing the Reformers said or did requires the papacy was the Antichrist.

Also, are you saying the Reformers reformed the papacy so it's no longer the Antichrist?

If so, didn't you say in an early post that the papacy still believes it's God/Christ, it's just not saying that publicly right now?



How can the papacy apologize if it still believes it's God/Christ?

Capital A Antichrist is ubiquitous in scriptural commentary but nonexistent in Scripture itself. It is most appropriately used as an umbrella term covering the little horn descriptions in Daniel 7, the man of sin in 2 Thessalonians 2, the small a antichrist in John's epistles, and the beast in Revelation 13.

Regarding continued papal fulfillment of the associated prophecies of the:
1. little horn:
a. eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things - continued proclamations of spiritual supremacy as the only true church, with no repudiation of essentially terrestrial divinity
b. made war with the saints, and prevailed against them - eventually extinguished by the Reformation
c. speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High - as above
d. think to change times and laws - unscriptural rituals and rites, holy days, edicts, shrines, canonizations, etc. still prevail
e. they (i.e. the saints) shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time - 1260 years of papal depredations eventually extinguished by the Reformation

2. man of sin:
a. Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God - consistent with Daniel, continued proclamations of spiritual supremacy as the only true church, with no repudiation of essentially terrestrial divinity

3. antichrist:
a. He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son - not a denial of Their existence, but of their own supremacy, by claiming to be Their substitutes on earth
b. And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist - not denying that Christ is come through humanity, but that He is come through fleshly, i.e. sinful, humanity. Mary is claimed to be sinless through immaculate conception.

4. beast:
a. Similar to descriptions of the little horn in Daniel; the same considerations apply.


So while the Reformation brought the papacy's war on the saints to an end, the papacy's claims continue. It is no longer the Antichrist, but is still an antichrist.

How can the papacy apologize if it still believes it's God/Christ? Only the pope can answer that one.
 
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Uncle Mikey said in post #88:

When God says "here is Wisdom", you better believe it.

The "wisdom" given in Revelation 13:18 is that six hundred and sixty-six is the number of the Antichrist's name (Revelation 13:17c-18). And the "understanding" in Revelation 13:18 which is required to properly "count", to add up, the number of his name, is having an understanding of gematria, which scripture itself employs with the three Greek letters at the end of Revelation 13:18 (in the original Greek Textus Receptus), and which scriptural gematria, sadly, many Christians today are either unaware of, or, even if they know about it, they refuse to employ it, mistakenly thinking it's some sort of occult numerology/divination.

Uncle Mikey said in post #88:

We are talking Wisdom that has taken Mankind thousands of years to comprehend, not silly "Gematria" that any cave dweller can scribble down.

Note that even the early Church understood that gematria must be applied with regard to the number of the Antichrist's name. Irenaeus (born c. 140 AD) said: "this number [666] being found in all the most approved and ancient copies [of Revelation], and those men who saw John face to face bearing their testimony; while reason also leads us to conclude that the number of the name of the beast, according to the Greek mode of calculation by the [value of] the letters contained in it, will amount to six hundred and sixty and six" (Against Heresies 5:30:1). This mode of calculation, or method of gematria, is the same in the Greek alphabet, the Hebrew alphabet, the English alphabet, and any other alphabet: the first nine letters in the alphabet are 1 through 9, the next nine letters are 10 through 90 (counting by tens), and the rest of the letters are 100, 200, 300, etc., to the end of the alphabet.

Uncle Mikey said in post #88:

Yep, the likeness of sinful flesh...

Romans 8:3
"For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh"

Romans 8:3 isn't denying Jesus Christ is in flesh per se. For Paul started Romans out by saying Jesus "was made of the seed of David according to the flesh" (Romans 1:3). And the whole point of Romans 8:3 is that Jesus was made flesh so that on the Cross, sin could be condemned in the flesh (Romans 8:3c; 2 Corinthians 5:21). Instead, Romans 8:3 is denying Jesus was sent into the world in "sinful" flesh. For Jesus was without sin (Hebrews 4:15; 2 Corinthians 5:21).

Also, if original sin (Romans 5:19a) is genetic, could it be passed on only through the male "seed", so that Jesus Christ could be conceived without original sin by being conceived without any human father (Luke 1:34-35)?

Uncle Mikey said in post #88:

If Abraham says we are made of Carbon, I believe it.

Indeed we are, but carbon doesn't make us or Jesus the Antichrist.
 
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jgr said in post #91:

d. think to change times and laws - unscriptural rituals and rites, holy days, edicts, shrines, canonizations, etc. still prevail

Daniel 7:25 isn't referring to a pope changing, for example, the time of the sabbath, but to the future Antichrist, who could radically change the calendar to where he will even get rid of the seven-day week, with its connotation to YHWH God and His seven-day creation of the world (Genesis 2:2). For the future Antichrist will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36).

The Antichrist could do what the atheists of the French Revolution did: Change the calendar to one consisting of 10-day weeks. Then he could say every month will consist of three of these 10-day weeks, so a year will consist of 12 months of 30 days each. But because this will make a year only 360 days, he could add a 5 or 6-day holiday period at the end of the year.

Like they did in the French Revolution, the Antichrist could also change the names of the 12 months to whatever pleases him. And he could change the names of his 10 days of the week to whatever pleases him.

The Antichrist's changing of "times" could even extend to the hour, minute, and second. For he could replace the 60-second minute with a 10-second "new minute", and the 60-minute hour with a 10-new-minute "new hour", so the decimal-based metric system will finally be extended to time-keeping.

But because a new, 100-second new-hour would mean there would be 864 new-hours in a day, the Antichrist could change the length of the second to a "new-second" consisting of about 86.4 of our current seconds, so there will be exactly 10 new-hours in every day. Times shorter than the new-second will be metric: the deci-new-second, the centi-new-second (about .864 the length of our current second), the milli-new-second, etc.

So the Antichrist's "changing of times" could seem pretty neat to the world (and to metric-system-loving scientists): 10 days in a week, 10 hours in a day, 10 minutes in an hour, and 10 seconds in a minute.

This could be sold to the world as part of a "New World Order", as a way of "finally shedding all the archaic time-keeping conventions, and replacing them with a modern and scientific system of time-keeping in line with the metric system of weights and measures, which has already proven to be such a boon to mankind".

jgr said in post #91:

How can the papacy apologize if it still believes it's God/Christ? Only the pope can answer that one.

He could answer that easily by denying your claim the papacy still believes it's God/Christ.
 
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Daniel 7:25 isn't referring to a pope changing, for example, the time of the sabbath

I would consider that to be a perfect example of what the papacy has changed, and one which matches the prophecy precisely. That and others below.

Catholic catechisms show that the Papacy has tried to change the law of God. The Ten Commandments have been tampered with. The Second Commandment, which refers to images and idols, is absent in Catholic literature. And to make up for the loss of one commandment, the Tenth is divided into two. The Fourth Commandment, which talks about the Sabbath, becomes the third commandment in the Catholic catechism. The day of worship is shifted by papal decree from Saturday to Sunday.

He could answer that easily by denying your claim the papacy still believes it's God/Christ.

Why does it not then demonstrate such by denying and repudiating its own historical claims rather than continuing to affirm them?
 
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