666 is probably just money

[jgr]

Also, note that the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast"), during his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), won't support Catholicism in its past and current form, insofar as Catholicism affirms Jesus is the Christ, while the Antichrist will deny Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22). And Catholicism affirms Jesus is the Son of God, while the Antichrist will deny Jesus is the Son of God (1 John 2:22b). And Catholicism affirms Christ is in the flesh, while the Antichrist (like the Gnostics) will deny Christ is in the flesh (2 John 1:7). And Catholicism affirms the God of the Bible (YHWH) is the true God, while the Antichrist (like the Gnostics) will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36). And Catholicism affirms the only man who is God is Jesus Christ of Nazareth, while the Antichrist will say that he (the Antichrist) is God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). And Catholicism affirms Lucifer (Satan) is evil, while the Antichrist will bring the world into the conscious and open worship of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9). So the Antichrist's religion during his 3.5-year worldwide reign won't be Catholicism in its past and current form, but a blend of Luciferianism and Gnosticism.

If Catholicism was to affirm everything shown above, but at the same time to affirm everything shown below; would the affirmations shown above be considered genuine, or would they be considered spurious?

Catholicism’s other affirmations:

Pius IX was described as "the living Christ", and "the Lamb of the Vatican".

Pius X said: "The Pope...is Jesus Christ Himself, hidden under the veil of flesh."

Pius XI, on 30 April 1922, in the Vatican throne room, said: "You know that I am the Holy Father, the representative of God on the earth, the Vicar of Christ, which means that I am God on the earth."

The Canon Law in the Gloss on the Extravaganza of John XXII, AD 1316-1334, calls the Roman pontiff "Our Lord God the Pope."

Martin V was addressed as: "The most holy and most blessed, who holds the celestial jurisdiction, who is Lord over all the earth...the anointed...the ruler of the universe, the father of kings, the Light of the World."

During the Vatican Council, 9 January 1870, it was stated: "The Pope is Christ in office, Christ in jurisdiction and power...we bow down before thy voice, O Pius, as before the voice of Christ, the God of truth; in clinging to thee, we cling to Christ."

The Roman Catholic theologian Thomas Aquinas said: "There is no difference between the Pope and Jesus Christ."

Cardinal Henry Edward Manning said: "He [the Roman pope] was elevated to be, in his Divine Master's Name, King of kings and Lord of lords."

“All the names which in the Scripture are applied to Christ, by virtue of which it is established that He is over the church, all the same names are applied to the Pope.” Robert Cardinal Bellarmine, De Conciliorum Auctoriatate (On the Authority of the Councils) Bk 2, chap. 17 Bellarmine (1542-1621), a professor and rector at the Jesuit Gregorian University in Rome, is generally considered to have been one of the outstanding Jesuit instructors in the history of this organization.

“The pope is of so great dignity and so exalted that he is not mere man, but as it were God, and the vicar of God. He is the divine monarch and supreme emperor, and king of kings. Hence the pope is crowned with a triple crown, as Kind of heaven and of earth and of the lower regions.” Lucius Ferraris, Prompta Bibliotheca, vol.6, art. “Papa II” (Ferraris was an Italian Catholic canonist and consultor to the Holy Office in Rome.)

“We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty.” Pope Leo XIII, in an encyclical letter dated June 20, 1894, The Great Encyclical Letters of Leo XIII, p. 304.

 

[Bible2+]

jgr said in post #50:

If Catholicism was to affirm everything shown above, but at the same time to affirm everything shown below; would the affirmations shown above be considered genuine, or would they be considered spurious?

Note that Catholicism per se can include both true and false claims, just as Reformationism can. But note that still, nothing requires Catholicism per se (as it stands today) will be the religion of the future Antichrist.

But the beast which comes up out of the earth in Revelation 13:11-16 represents the individual man who will become the Antichrist's False Prophet (Revelation 19:20, Revelation 16:13). And he could be a secretly-apostate pope who at some point during his tenure will make a great push for peace and unity between Christianity and Islam. He could say something like: "Why do we fight each other? Are we not all the spiritual children of Abraham and of his God, the one God? Can't we lay aside our foolish, man-made differences of theology, which have done us no good at all, but have only brought us hatred and violence, and unite into one religion of Abraham, one religion of peace, based on love for the one God and love for our fellow man? What is more important than this?"

He could be so skillful in elucidating what the moderate Muslims could call "the true, peaceful, loving nature of Islam", that he could be hailed by them worldwide as (in their words) "a Great Imam, come to rescue our beloved Islam from the bad reputation falsely given to it by the terrorists". In this way, a pope could come to hold high positions of power in two religions at the same time, which could be symbolized by the two horns of the False Prophet lamb (Revelation 13:11). This would be similar to how the seven horns of the true-Jesus lamb in Revelation 5:6 could represent the true Jesus holding seven positions of power at the same time (compare Jesus wearing many crowns at the same time in Revelation 19:12). The False Prophet could even say he is Jesus. But he won't say he's Christ, for the False Prophet and the Antichrist will deny Jesus is the Christ, and will deny Christ is in the flesh (1 John 2:22; 2 John 1:7).

Once the False Prophet by his amazing miracles has brought the world under his spell (Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), including many Muslims and Christians who may not care much for scriptural dogma, but could go wild over his signs and wonders, he could begin to (in his words) "restore to the world the real message which was spoken by me (Jesus) at my first coming, and by the great prophet Mohammed, but which message became corrupted by power-hungry men when they copied and changed the early manuscripts of the Bible and the Koran". He could then gradually initiate the world into the Antichrist's Gnostic Luciferianism (1 John 4:3, Revelation 13:4-6), a religion which could have existed since ancient times in some "mystery" cults, and still exists today in the highest degree of initiation of a worldwide secret society. The False Prophet could present his miraculously calling fire down from heaven (Revelation 13:13) as purported proof that Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and the Antichrist are the true God (Revelation 13:4-8, Revelation 12:9), in an inversion of how back in Old Testament times, Elijah miraculously called fire down from heaven to prove YHWH is the true God (1 Kings 18:37-39).

-

If a secretly apostate pope does become the Antichrist's False Prophet (of Revelation 13:11-16, Revelation 19:20, and Revelation 16:13), adherents of Catholicism will have to decide what their ultimate source of truth is: Is it the pope and the RCC, or God and the Bible? Many adherents of Catholicism who know God and the Bible well and hold to them as their ultimate source of truth will no doubt be utterly aghast at the false doctrines of a False Prophet pope. Such adherents of Catholicism could demand he be removed for heresy and apostasy, and that the cardinals elect a new pope. But other adherents of Catholicism, including many cardinals, bishops, and priests, could be deceived (along with most of the rest of the world) into believing the False Prophet pope's false doctrines, because of his ability to perform the most amazing miracles (Revelation 13:13-14, Revelation 19:20; cf. Matthew 24:24).

And so a great schism could arise within the RCC. Compare the Akita prophecy: "The work of the devil will infiltrate even into the Church in such a way that one will see cardinals opposing cardinals, bishops against bishops". Many adherents of Catholicism could follow the False Prophet pope, while other adherents of Catholicism could reject him and elect their own, new pope (or reinstall a former pope who's still alive), whom they could declare to be the "True Pope". But this new (or reinstated) "True Pope" could be murdered, along with many of his followers, by the False Prophet pope's soldiers. Compare the Third Secret of Fatima: "he [the pope] was killed by a group of soldiers who fired bullets and arrows at him, and in the same way there died one after another the other Bishops, Priests, men and women Religious, and various lay people of different ranks and positions". Could the soldiers firing "arrows" be the Vatican's Swiss Guards, whose weapons and colorful uniforms hark back to the Middle Ages?

After this slaughter, the False Prophet pope could manage to retain the papacy and full control of the Vatican, and through his (deceived) cardinals, bishops, and priests, retain full control of all RCC cathedrals, parishes, churches, etc., throughout the world. And when the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") obtains power over all nations, he and the False Prophet will make war against true, Biblical Christians (whether they're adherents of Catholicism or not) throughout the world, and will physically overcome them and kill them (by beheading) in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

It's only when the Antichrist has completely broken the physical power of the true Church (which consists of all true Christians, whether they're adherents of Catholicism or not: Ephesians 4:4-6) that the future Tribulation will end (Daniel 12:7b) and Jesus Christ's Second Coming will immediately occur, at which time He will physically resurrect and rapture (gather together) the Church (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). And at His Second Coming, Jesus will tread the winepress of God's wrath alone (Isaiah 63:3, Revelation 19:15-21), and so He/God will get all the glory for defeating the power of evil on the earth (Deuteronomy 32:39-43). For He/God won't share this glory with the Church (cf. Isaiah 42:8-14, Isaiah 26:18).

 

[jgr]

Note that Catholicism per se can include both true and false claims, just as Reformationism can.

We aren't talking just any false claims here. We're talking the claim to be God, and the claim to be Christ, the ultimate blasphemies. This is consistent with:

Dan. 7
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.

Rev. 13
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

It is consistent with:

1 John 2:22
Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

What greater denial of the Father is there than to claim that oneself is "God on the earth?"
What greater denial of the Son is there than to claim that oneself is "the living Christ?"

You allege that Reformationism can include true and false claims. The Reformers as human beings were not infallible, but they were personally living in the midst of, witnessing, experiencing, and with great frequency dying for, the truths of the prophetic fulfillments which they were proclaiming. Estimates place the death toll of those who refused to submit to Rome over the centuries of the papacy at 50 million.

What false claims of the Reformers would you be referring to?

 

[Bible2+]

jgr said in post #52:

We aren't talking just any false claims here. We're talking the claim to be God, and the claim to be Christ, the ultimate blasphemies.

Note that if you ask almost any Catholic: "Is the pope God?", or "Is the pope Christ?", you will get the answer: "Of course not!"

Try even asking the current pope the same questions. He will laugh kindly in your face, considering the questions absurd. For he has even admitted publicly that he himself is a sinner (like the rest of us), and so has no right to judge others. He once said: "Who am I to judge?"

So, please, stop with the cherry-picked quotes from some nutty popes hundreds of years ago, and some nutty "churchmen" in councils or writings trying to impress their leader.

Catholics worship Jesus Christ of Nazareth Himself, up in heaven, and they worship YHWH God the Father Himself, up in heaven. And so they are unlike the future Antichrist, who will bring the whole world into the conscious and open worship of Lucifer/Satan/the dragon himself, and into the worship of the Antichrist himself (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9).

Also, note that no pope has ever fulfilled all the detailed references to the Antichrist in Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 16:2-16, Revelation 19:19-21, Revelation 20:4, 2 Thessalonians 2:3-9, and Daniel 11:31,36; cf. Matthew 24:15.

jgr said in post #52:

Dan. 7
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.

Regarding Daniel 7, note that there the first three beasts (Daniel 7:3-6) represent the ancient empires of Babylon (lion), Medo-Persia (bear), and Greece (leopard). The fourth beast, or fourth "king"/"kingdom" (Daniel 7:17,23), represents the ancient Roman empire. And the ten horns/kings which come out of it (Daniel 7:7,24) could represent ten major kingdoms/nations today which came out the former territory of the Roman empire, which consisted not only of Western Europe, but also the Middle East and North Africa. These ten nations could be Germany, the U.K., France, Italy, Spain, Turkey, Egypt, Iraq, Algeria, and Syria. The ten part-iron/part-clay toes of Daniel 2:42 could represent the same thing as the ten horns of Daniel 7:7. The Europeans could be the iron, and the Arabs and Turks could be the clay. In Daniel 2:43, the inability of the iron to mix with the clay could represent how, for example, there are many Turks living in Germany, but they remain separated in ghettoes within German cities. Similarly, there are many Arab Algerians living in France, but they remain separated in ghettoes within French cities.

But despite this social separation, which could endure indefinitely, the people of Western Europe on the one hand and the people of the Middle East and North Africa on the other could still one day put aside their political separation and become united into one federation. For Daniel 2:42 refers to the ten as a singular "kingdom". The person who will bring this about could be the Antichrist.

The arising of the "little" horn (Daniel 7:8, Daniel 8:9), which is "diverse" from the ten major nations (Daniel 7:24), could mean that the Antichrist will arise from a little country. And the little horn arising from "among" the ten major nations (Daniel 7:8) could mean that the Antichrist's country's territory used to be part of the Roman empire. And before that, it was part of one of the four Diadochian Greek kingdoms which succeeded the Greek empire of Alexander the Great (Daniel 8:8-9,21-25). The territory of these four kingdoms stretched from Greece over to Iran, and down into Egypt. So the Antichrist could come from the Middle East. He could be an Arab who will come from the little country of Lebanon, from the modern city of Tyre (Ezekiel 28:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:4).

The Antichrist could start out by claiming to be a Baathist. After becoming the leader of Lebanon, he could peacefully gain control of a Baathist federation of three of the ten major nations (Daniel 7:24): Egypt, "toward the south" of Lebanon (Daniel 8:9), and Iraq and Syria, "toward the east" of Lebanon (Daniel 8:9). This federation could also include the minor nation of a United Palestine, that is, a defeated Israel, "the pleasant land" (Daniel 8:9).

This Baathist federation could be put together in the future by an Iraqi Baathist General who could completely defeat and occupy Israel and Egypt with a huge Iraqi Army (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17 the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath"), but who could then mysteriously disappear (Daniel 11:19) shortly before the Antichrist arises on the world stage (Daniel 11:21-45). Years later, when the Antichrist gains control of all ten of the major nations, he could appoint kings over them (Revelation 17:12) who will defer to him (Revelation 17:13), like how when Napoleon gained control of different nations, he appointed kings over them who would defer to him.

jgr said in post #52:

Rev. 13
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

Christians need to be aware that during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18), even though the world will consciously and openly worship Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:4-8, Revelation 12:9), this won't require that the Antichrist's one-world religion will say Jesus is evil, or will turn the world against Jesus. For almost the entire world reveres Jesus, at least as being a good man. The Antichrist could confirm this basic world belief, but simply (in his words) "clarify" that while Jesus is indeed a good man, he isn't the Christ or the Son of God (1 John 2:22). No doubt the Antichrist will also deny Jesus suffered and died on the Cross for our sins, as this, just as believing Jesus is the Christ and the Son of God (John 20:31, John 3:36), is one of the core beliefs of the Gospel by which people become saved (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

So what the Antichrist could do is keep the idea of a good Jesus, but strip it of everything by which Jesus saves people from hell. And this wouldn't require the Antichrist deny Jesus' second coming. Indeed, the Antichrist and his False Prophet (of Revelation 19:20) could even try to employ to their own ends the Biblical prophecy of Jesus' second coming, as well as the Muslim prophecy which says the miracle-working prophet Jesus will return bodily from heaven in the last days to bring the whole earth into the worship of the true God. For the False Prophet could claim he is Jesus returned (via reincarnation). And he could perform amazing miracles (Revelation 13:13) as purported proof of his claim (cf. John 3:2). This is one reason why it's important to know when and how the real Jesus' Second Coming will occur (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21).

Once the False Prophet by his amazing miracles has brought the world under his spell (Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), including many Muslims and Christians who may not care much for scriptural dogma, but could go wild over his signs and wonders, he could begin to (in his words) "restore to the world the real message which was spoken by me (Jesus) at my first coming, and by the great prophet Mohammed, but which message became corrupted by power-hungry men when they copied and changed the early manuscripts of the Bible and the Koran". He could then gradually initiate the world into the Antichrist's Gnostic Luciferianism (1 John 4:3, Revelation 13:4-6), a religion which could have existed since ancient times in some "mystery" cults, and still exists today in the highest degree of initiation of a worldwide secret society. The False Prophet could present his miraculously calling fire down from heaven (Revelation 13:13) as purported proof that Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and the Antichrist are the true God (Revelation 13:4-8, Revelation 12:9), in an inversion of how back in Old Testament times, Elijah miraculously called fire down from heaven to prove YHWH is the true God (1 Kings 18:37-39).

The person whom the Antichrist will revile is YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36), whom many people mistakenly think of as being (in their words) "the God of only the Old Testament, that cruel and hateful God who commanded people to commit genocide and kill babies (1 Samuel 15:3), whereas Jesus came and preached love for everyone (Matthew 5:44)". The truth is Jesus Christ confirmed the God of the Old Testament, YHWH (Deuteronomy 6:4-5, Leviticus 19:18), is the same as the God of the New Testament (Mark 12:29-31), and that the Old Testament is true (Matthew 5:17-18, Luke 24:44-48). Jesus suffered and died for our sins in fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy from YHWH (Isaiah 53; 1 Peter 2:24). And He rose from the dead in fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy from YHWH (e.g. Psalms 16:10, Acts 2:31). Jesus died to establish the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28), which YHWH had foretold in the Old Testament (Jeremiah 31:31-34). And Jesus died to bring about the defeat of Satan (Hebrews 2:14), which YHWH had foretold from even the first book of the Old Testament (Genesis 3:15).

Nonetheless, building on many people's misconceptions of YHWH as being (in their words) "the cruel God of the Old Testament", no doubt one of the Antichrist's chief blasphemies against YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36) will be that YHWH is an evil god. This is one of the ancient blasphemies of Gnosticism, another being the antichrist lie that Christ isn't in the flesh (2 John 1:7). The world will be deceived into completely rejecting YHWH, and worshipping Satan and the Antichrist instead (Revelation 13:4-8, Revelation 12:9). But Satan might not be worshipped as "Satan", which most everyone sees as a bad name (it means "Adversary"), but as "Lucifer" (Isaiah 14:12), which means "the morning star". The Antichrist could falsely say it's YHWH who is the true "Satan", the true "Adversary" of mankind. And he could claim even 2 Samuel 24:1 and 1 Chronicles 21:1 together prove this by showing it was the single entity of YHWH/Satan who moved David to number Israel. Of course, the truth is 2 Samuel 24:1 and 1 Chronicles 21:1 together simply mean YHWH used Satan to move David. YHWH elsewhere rebuked Satan (Zechariah 3:2), so they're in no way the same person.

Because the Antichrist and his False Prophet (possibly masquerading as Jesus) will deny Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22), and will deny Christ is in the flesh (1 John 4:3), and because they will bring the unsaved world into the worship of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) instead (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9), they could falsely say (the non-mortal flesh) Lucifer is the Christ, that the new name of Christ (Revelation 3:12c) is "Lucifer Christ". For just as "Lucifer" means "the morning star", so Christ is the morning star (Revelation 22:16b). Also, Christ identified himself with the serpent (John 3:14), and Lucifer is the serpent (Revelation 12:9). Also, Christ said "Ye are gods" (John 10:34), and it was the serpent who said "ye shall be as gods" (Genesis 3:5).

But the truth is Lucifer fell from his office of morning star (Isaiah 14:12) and became Satan (cf. Luke 10:18). Jesus Christ has taken over the office of morning star (Revelation 22:16). And Jesus Christ identified Himself only with the brass serpent on the pole in Numbers 21:8-9 (John 3:14), which typified Jesus Christ's crucifixion for our sins (John 19:16, Matthew 26:28). And in John 10:34, Jesus Christ (John 20:31) was quoting YHWH in Psalms 82:6-7, which shows that even though humans have knowledge of good and evil as gods do (Genesis 3:22), they will still die like humans (Psalms 82:7), contradicting the serpent's lie (Genesis 3:4). Nonetheless, the Antichrist could falsely say Lucifer is the Christ and the true and beneficent God of mankind, and that the False Prophet is the miracle-working prophet Jesus (cf. John 3:2, Acts 3:22-24), returned to point the world to the true Christ/God. The Antichrist could falsely say he (the Antichrist) is the human/divine "Son" of Lucifer, who must be worshipped as God along with Lucifer (Revelation 13:4,8). This would be similar to how Biblical Christians rightly worship the human/divine Jesus Christ (John 1:1,14) as YHWH God (the Son) along with YHWH God the Father (John 20:28, Hebrews 1:8).

Near the end of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, unclean spirits like frogs will come out of the mouths of Lucifer, the Antichrist, and the False Prophet (Revelation 16:13). And these unclean spirits like frogs will go forth and perform amazing miracles to convince the world's armies to gather together at Armageddon (Har Megiddo: Mount Megiddo in northern Israel) (Revelation 16:16) in an attempt to fight and defeat YHWH Himself (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19). After gathering together at Armageddon, the armies will travel south and pillage Jerusalem, right before the real Jesus (who is YHWH: John 10:30) returns from heaven and defeats them completely (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:20 to 20:3).

So the Second Coming of Jesus Christ will be a total shock to the world. The world will have been expecting to wage war against some evil Old Testament god named "YHWH" with the help of the good Jesus (played by the False Prophet) and with the help of the true and beneficent Christ/God (played by Lucifer) and with the help of the good Son of God (played by the Antichrist) and with the help of the good angels of God (played by the fallen angels of Lucifer: Revelation 12:9). But then instead of some evil god appearing in the sky, the world could see the glorious sign of the Cross (cf. Matthew 24:30), the symbol of the good YHWH suffering and dying for our sins (Acts 20:28b). And then the world will see the glorious appearance of the real Jesus, sitting on a white horse descending from the sky (Revelation 19:11-21).

When the people of the world realize at that moment how thoroughly they have been duped, and see in the sky the huge angelic armies (2 Thessalonians 1:7, Matthew 25:31) of the true Jesus, the true Christ, the true Son of God, and the good YHWH, who are all the one and the same Jesus Christ of Nazareth, they could utterly mourn and wail for themselves (Matthew 24:30, Revelation 1:7), knowing in their spirits that Jesus has returned in wrath to destroy most of them for their unrepentant sins (2 Thessalonians 1:8-9, Revelation 19:15-21).

 

[Bible2+]

jgr said in post #52:

What false claims of the Reformers would you be referring to?

Have you read Luther's virulent, anti-Semitic comments?

Also, someone on this forum once quoted Luther as saying about the Biblical book of Revelation: "Christ is neither taught nor known in it".

But the truth is that the entire book of Revelation is from Jesus Christ to the Church (Revelation 1:1, Revelation 22:16). And Christ is taught and known throughout the book. For Revelation 1 is about Christ's appearance and His speaking to John the apostle while John was on Patmos. And Revelation chapters 2-3 are letters which Christ spoke directly to seven churches. And Revelation 5 is about Christ as the Lamb (cf. John 1:36, Acts 8:32; 1 Peter 1:19), now in heaven. And Revelation 6 is about how Christ will unseal the seven seals of the future Tribulation. And Revelation 7:9-17 is about Christ comforting the souls of dead Christians in heaven. And Revelation 11:8 refers to Christ as our Lord. And Revelation 11:15 refers to Christ, in our future, taking legal possession of all the kingdoms of the world away from the Antichrist. And Revelation 12:10 mentions the power of Christ. And Revelation 12:11 refers to Christian martyrs overcoming Satan by the blood of Christ. And Revelation 12:17 refers to Christians having the testimony of Christ (Revelation 12:17). And Revelation 13:8 mentions Christ. And Revelation 14:1 refers to Christ standing on the heavenly Mount Zion (cf. Hebrews 12:22). And Revelation 14:4 refers to how the 144,000 will be Christ's followers (Revelation 14:4).

And Revelation 14:10 refers to those in hell being tormented in the presence of Christ. And Revelation 14:12-13 refers to Christians keeping the faith of Christ even unto martyrdom. And Revelation 14:14-16 refers to Christ reaping their souls into heaven after their death. And Revelation 15:3 refers to the song of Christ. And Revelation 16:15 quotes something Christ says. And Revelation 17:6 refers to those martyred for Christ. And Revelation 17:14 refers to Christ's future victory, as Lord of lords and King of kings, over the powers of the non-Christian world. And Revelation 19:7 refers to Christ's future marriage to the Church. And Revelation 19:9 refers to the marriage supper of Christ. And Revelation 19:10 refers to those who have the testimony of Christ, and says the testimony of Christ is the spirit of prophecy. And Revelation 19:11-21 describes Christ's future, Second Coming. And Revelation 20:4-6 refers to Christ's subsequent Millennial reign on the earth with the physically resurrected Church. And Revelation 20:11-15 refers to when Christ will resurrect and judge (cf. John 5:22,28-29) all the non-Christians of all times. And Revelation 21:9 refers to how the city of New Jerusalem pictures Christ's bride, the Church. And Revelation 21:14 mentions Christ's apostles.

And Revelation 21:22 refers to Christ Himself and God the Father as the temple of New Jerusalem. And Revelation 21:23 refers to Christ being the light of New Jerusalem. And Revelation 21:27 refers to Christ's Book of Life. And Revelation 22:1,3 refers to the throne of Christ and of God the Father. And Revelation 22:3 refers to the servants of Christ and of God the Father. And Revelation 22:7,12-13,16,20a quotes Christ. And Revelation 22:17,20b refers to the Church calling for Christ's (still unfulfilled) Second Coming. And Revelation 22:21 closes the book with: "The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen", just as the book had opened with: "The Revelation of Jesus Christ" (Revelation 1:1). So it doesn't seem possible that anyone could say Christ is neither taught nor known in the book of Revelation.

jgr said in post #52:

What false claims of the Reformers would you be referring to?

Wasn't it Luther who said the Biblical book of James was "an epistle of straw?" (Like with Revelation, so much for sola scriptura.)

But the truth is that the issue in James 2:14-24 is how Christians are to be saved (James 2:14b), how they are to be justified before God (James 2:23-24), just as the issue in Romans 4:1-5 is how Christians are to be saved, how they are to be justified before God (cf. Romans 5:9, Romans 1:16). That's why both James 2:23-24 and Romans 4:1-5 employ the same Old Testament verse (Genesis 15:6, Romans 4:3, James 2:23). Romans 4:1-5 refers to initial salvation/justification before God, which is based on faith apart from works (Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5), while James 2:23-24 refers to ultimate salvation/justification before God, which is based on both faith and works (Romans 2:6-8, Matthew 7:21, Philippians 2:12b; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9; 2 Peter 1:10-11, Hebrews 6:10-12, Philippians 3:11-14; 1 John 2:17b), as in works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law).

For faith is like a body, and works of faith are like the breathing (spirit) of that body (James 2:26). Faith without works of faith will die, just as a body without breathing will die (James 2:26). That's why our ultimate salvation will depend on both our faith and our continued works of faith (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21). If a Christian refuses to continue to perform works of faith, without repentance, he will ultimately lose his salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a), just as if someone stops himself from breathing by hanging himself, he will die.

The breathing analogy (James 2:26) doesn't include the automatic aspect of breathing. For Christians must be careful to maintain good works (Titus 3:8). The analogies in the Bible don't include every aspect of the analogous thing. For example, Christians, born-again people, being like newborn babies (1 Peter 2:2) doesn't mean Christians have no ability to talk, walk, or control their bowels.

jgr said in post #52:

What false claims of the Reformers would you be referring to?

Note that Calvin's mistaken doctrine of once-saved-always-saved through assured perseverance unwittingly ends up logically requiring Christians are robots. For if Christians can't choose to do evil to the point where they can ultimately lose their salvation, then they no longer have free will. Also, the mistaken doctrine of assured perseverance unwittingly ends up logically requiring a Christian can have no present assurance he's truly saved. For if a Christian who doesn't persevere to the end was never truly saved, then no Christian can presently have the assurance he's truly saved. For no Christian can know if he will persevere to the end. Down the road, he could fail to persevere, and so end up showing he was all along only a fake Christian, a self-deceived hypocrite.

But under true, Biblical doctrine, every believer in the Gospel of Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, John 20:31) can know he's presently saved (1 John 5:13; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4), if after he became a Christian he repented from his sins (1 John 3:6) and confessed them to God (1 John 1:9). And he can be sure as a saved person he can never be separated from the love of God, so long as he loves God (Romans 8:28-39), which means to obey Him (1 John 5:3, John 14:21-24). And no matter how many tests a Christian fails during his lifetime, sometime subsequent to his initial repentance, even if he fails and commits sin 70-times-seven times in a single day (Matthew 18:21-22, Luke 17:4), he can be sure that so long as he sincerely repents from every act of sin and confesses it to God, he will be completely forgiven (1 John 1:9). He will lose his salvation ultimately only if he wrongly employs his free will to do something like committing a sin without repentance (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46), or becoming utterly lazy without repentance (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8), or committing apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12).

 

[jgr]

Note that if you ask almost any Catholic: "Is the pope God?", or "Is the pope Christ?", you will get the answer: "Of course not!"

Try even asking the current pope the same questions. He will laugh kindly in your face, considering the questions absurd. For he has even admitted publicly that he himself is a sinner (like the rest of us), and so has no right to judge others. He once said: "Who am I to judge?"

So, please, stop with the cherry-picked quotes from some nutty popes hundreds of years ago, and some nutty "churchmen" in councils or writings trying to impress their leader.

What would “almost any Catholic” know about the historical transgressions of the papacy? I would suggest nothing, or next to it.

Your attempt to trivialize blasphemy by characterizing the blasphemers as nutty is an indefensible failure. The ancient popes were fully convinced of what they were claiming. Their persecution of those who refused to submit to their claims was anything but nutty. The death toll of 50 million was anything but nutty.

Have you heard of any pope past or present who has publicly repudiated the historical papal claims? I haven’t. Might the doctrine of papal infallibility account for that? I would suggest yes. So while the rhetoric may have diminished, the underpinning doctrines have remained unchanged.

Regarding Daniel 7, note that there the first three beasts (Daniel 7:3-6) represent the ancient empires of Babylon (lion), Medo-Persia (bear), and Greece (leopard). The fourth beast, or fourth "king"/"kingdom" (Daniel 7:17,23), represents the ancient Roman empire. And the ten horns/kings which come out of it (Daniel 7:7,24) could represent ten major kingdoms/nations today which came out the former territory of the Roman empire, which consisted not only of Western Europe, but also the Middle East and North Africa. These ten nations could be Germany, the U.K., France, Italy, Spain, Turkey, Egypt, Iraq, Algeria, and Syria. The ten part-iron/part-clay toes of Daniel 2:42 could represent the same thing as the ten horns of Daniel 7:7. The Europeans could be the iron, and the Arabs and Turks could be the clay. In Daniel 2:43, the inability of the iron to mix with the clay could represent how, for example, there are many Turks living in Germany, but they remain separated in ghettoes within German cities. Similarly, there are many Arab Algerians living in France, but they remain separated in ghettoes within French cities.

Historically:

The ten kings of Dan. 7:24 find fulfillment in the ten kingdoms of the Heruli, Suevi, Burgundians, Huns, Ostrogoths, Visigoths, Vandals, Lombards, Franks, and Anglo-Saxons.

The little horn was a Roman power, growing as it did out of a Roman beast (v. 8). The Roman Catholic papacy, headquartered in Rome, is the fulfillment.

The little horn subdued three of the foregoing kings and kingdoms (v. 24), the Heruli, Vandals, and Ostrogoths. The papacy was the fulfillment.

The little horn was diverse (v. 24), or different, from the ten, in that it claimed spiritual as well as temporal power. The papacy claims superiority to every other institution, surpassing them “as far as the light of the sun exceeds that of the moon.” The papacy is the fulfillment.

The little horn was equipped with a mouth that spoke very great things (v. 20) against the most High (v. 25). There was and is no precedent for its claims, as already seen. The papacy is the fulfillment.

The little horn had eyes, and a look that was “more stout than his fellows.” (v. 20). This connotes its arrogated authority to inquire and interrogate, as evidenced by the inquisitions. The papacy was the fulfillment.

The little horn would make war with the saints (v. 21) and wear out the saints (v. 25). The persecutions and pogroms against the true Church over the centuries of the papacy are unparalleled in the annals of Christendom. The papacy was the fulfillment.


These truths are what the Reformers proclaimed and died for. It is true that there were occasions when their own tactics were no better than those of their papal oppressors, and there were those who did die at their hands. But that number is an infinitesmal fraction of the toll of the papacy.

I presume that you’re aware of the origin of the dispensational futurism that you advocate. It’s found in the Jesuit Francisco Ribera’s counter-reformation attempt to discredit the Reformation declaration of the papacy as antichrist and the man of sin. Any pope would have appreciated your support.

In his tract, Who is the Antichrist?, former Catholic priest Joseph Zacchello writes “The Jesuits, a militant order of priests…were the first ones to introduce a new theory in order to divert men’s minds from perceiving the fulfillment of the prophecies of the antichrist in the papal church. The Jesuit Ribera…brought out the futuristic system, which asserts that the antichrist is yet to appear.” “Protestants who advocate the futuristic system are pleasing the pope and are playing into the hands of Rome.”

Historical prophetic fulfillment is anathema to dispensational futurized speculation.

 

[Bible2+]

jgr said in post #55:

Your attempt to trivialize blasphemy by characterizing the blasphemers as nutty is an indefensible failure. The ancient popes were fully convinced of what they were claiming.

Note that nutty people are fully convinced of what they claim, no matter how absurd. That's what makes them nutty.

jgr said in post #55:

Their persecution of those who refused to submit to their claims was anything but nutty. The death toll of 50 million was anything but nutty.

Note that acting on one's claims in a murderous fashion is not incompatible with being nutty. Compare Manson or any other psychopathic killer.

jgr said in post #55:

The persecutions and pogroms against the true Church over the centuries of the papacy are unparalleled in the annals of Christendom.

Note that early Christendom also suffered terribly under pagan Rome.

Also, the future Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") will be worse than any past pope, for he will be given power over every nation on the entire earth (Revelation 13:7b), and he will make war against and overcome physically (by beheading) every Biblical Christian whom he can get his hands on throughout the world (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13). And this will include even adherents of Catholicism who will reject his religion of Gnostic Luciferianism.

jgr said in post #55:

I presume that you’re aware of the origin of the dispensational futurism that you advocate.

Note that Christian Futurism per se should be distinguished from Dispensationalism.

For Futurism per se is correct, because the Tribulation and subsequent Second-Coming prophecies of Revelation chapters 6 to 19 and Matthew 24 haven't yet been fulfilled, just as the prophecies of the subsequent Millennium (e.g. Revelation 20:4-6 and Zechariah 14) haven't yet been fulfilled.

But Dispensationalism is mistaken, because it sets up a mutual exclusiveness between the Church and Israel, while the Bible shows that just as the Gentile Ruth (a genetic forbear of Israel's Messiah: Matthew 1:5-16, Luke 3:23-32) could say to the Israelite Naomi: "thy people shall be my people, and thy God my God" (Ruth 1:16), so Gentiles in the Church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29).

That is, all Jews in the Church remain members of whichever tribe of Israel they were born into (Romans 11:1, Acts 4:36). And all Gentiles in the Church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), and so have been grafted into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23). So the entire Church is the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). This is necessary, for all those in the Church are saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), which is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). John 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of Gentile Christians being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the "one fold" of the Church (1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Revelation 21:9,12). A Gentile Christian can pray and ask which tribe of Israel he has been grafted into, and he will receive an answer from God, if he asks in faith (cf. Matthew 21:22), without any wavering (cf. James 1:6-7).

Also, all those in the Church, no matter whether they're Jews (Acts 22:3) or Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have become spiritually-circumcised Jews, if they have undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus Christ (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).

-

Also, Dispensationalism is mistaken because it teaches a pre-tribulation rapture, while the Bible shows that Jesus won't come and gather together (rapture) the church until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).

jgr said in post #55:

It’s found in the Jesuit Francisco Ribera’s counter-reformation attempt to discredit the Reformation declaration of the papacy as antichrist and the man of sin.

Regarding the man of sin (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4), note that no man ever sat in the Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaimed himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36,31, cf. Matthew 24:15), just as no man ever fulfilled other detailed references to the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the "beast") in Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 16:2-16, Revelation 19:19-21, and 2 Thessalonians 2:8-9. Any mistaken teaching which claims the Antichrist has already come and gone could be employed in our future by the real Antichrist to fool some Christians into thinking he isn't the Antichrist.

The Antichrist will fulfill 2 Thessalonians 2:4 after he by force takes control of a future, third Jewish temple in Jerusalem, stops the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices which the ultra-Orthodox Jews will have restarted in front of it, and has the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the temple (Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew 24:15).

The Antichrist could then make quite a show of his sitting himself in the temple and declaring himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36,31). In a television and internet spectacle which will be seen live by the world, he could first be shown entering the temple's most holy place in magnificent golden robes. He could then step up to the Ark of the Covenant (which could have been discovered, and placed in the temple by the Jews) and lift the Mercy Seat off the Ark, showing it to be empty. He could then look into the camera and say: "Where's YHWH? He's not here! He's a distant fraud! His power on this earth is as hollow as this empty Ark!" (The Antichrist will utterly revile YHWH: Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36.)

Then the Antichrist could raise the Mercy Seat high above his head only to suddenly smash it down violently to the ground, breaking it into pieces. The piped-in sound of crowds roaring with approval could then be heard in the background. Then the Antichrist could place his hands on the Ark and stare into the camera: "WE can do better than this". He could then knock over the Ark and stamp it with his foot, bashing in its side. Two of the Antichrist's followers in robes could then quickly come in and clear away the rubble of the Mercy Seat and the Ark, while four strong men in robes carry into the temple's most holy place a magnificent golden throne and place it right where the Ark had been before. The men could then bow down and motion with their arms for the Antichrist to sit on the throne. He could then grandly take his seat upon it.

Glorious symphonic music could then swell as the sound of crowds roaring with approval increases. Then the Antichrist's False Prophet (Revelation 19:20) (who could be an apostate pope) could enter the temple's most holy place and approach the Antichrist carrying a majestic golden crown encrusted with large diamonds and all kinds of precious stones. The Antichrist could take the crown from the pope's outstretched hands. And as the Antichrist is placing the crown on his own head, a camera could slowly zoom in on his face as he says in a deep voice: "I AM THAT I AM. I AM YOUR GOD. WORSHIP ME, ALL YE NATIONS OF THE EARTH!"

(Compare Revelation 13:8, Daniel 11:36; 2 Thessalonians 2:4)

jgr said in post #55:

Historical prophetic fulfillment is anathema to dispensational futurized speculation.

Note that historicism (in its various modern forms), as well as preterism (whether full or partial), and pre-tribulation rapturism, symbolicism, and spiritualism, could all be animated by the same spirit of fear: that the Church alive today throughout the world would otherwise have to physically suffer through the future, almost-entirely literal, worldwide Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. For these five views of historicism, preterism, pre-tribulation rapturism, symbolicism, and spiritualism, in their different ways, each gives a mistaken assurance to the Church alive today that it won't have to physically suffer through the Tribulation.

Preterism says the Tribulation happened in 70 AD (or a few years before and including 70 AD). Historicism says it happened over a long period in history, such as during the rise and height of the RCC's power in Europe during the Middle Ages and after, or during the rise and spread of Islam in the Middle East and elsewhere during the Middle Ages and after. Pre-tribulation rapturism says Jesus Christ will return and rapture the Church into the third heaven before the Tribulation. Symbolicism says the Tribulation is only symbolic of theological themes which Christians have always had to struggle with (e.g. Matthew 6:24), and is symbolic of only-local physical persecutions which some Christians have always had to face, and are still facing today in some places. And spiritualism says the Tribulation is only spiritual events which go on only within the hearts of individuals.

But when the almost-entirely literal, worldwide Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 begins in our future, the shaky doctrinal wall which (in their different ways) these five views have each tried to build up between the Church and the Tribulation, will be completely shattered (Ezekiel 13:10-12) as the Church worldwide begins to physically suffer through the Tribulation (Matthew 24:9-31, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). These five views may have left some Christians unprepared mentally to undergo this physical suffering, to where these five views could even contribute to some Christians ultimately losing their salvation because of committing apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12) during the Tribulation, when they will become "offended" that God is letting them and their little ones physically suffer through it (Matthew 24:9-12, Matthew 13:21, Isaiah 8:21-22, Luke 8:13).

Even though the Church today throughout the world will have to physically suffer through the future Tribulation, the Church need not fear this (cf. 1 Peter 4:12-13, Revelation 2:10). For even though many Christians will suffer and die during that time (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13), this will be to their gain, as it will bring their still-conscious souls into heaven to be with Jesus Christ (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8; see also 2 Corinthians 4:17-18; 2 Timothy 2:12), and it won't rob them of the blessed hope (Titus 2:13) of obtaining eternal life (Titus 1:2, Titus 3:7) in an immortal, physical resurrection body (Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39) at Jesus Christ's Second Coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), which will occur immediately after the future Tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

 

[jgr]

Note that nutty people are fully convinced of what they claim, no matter how absurd. That's what makes them nutty.

Note that acting on one's claims in a murderous fashion is not incompatible with being nutty. Compare Manson or any other psychopathic killer.

You’ll have to extend the nuttiness to John Paul II:

“Have no fear when people call me the "Vicar of Christ," when they say to me "Holy Father," or "Your Holiness," or use titles similar to these, which seem even inimical to the Gospel”

“We readily understand the devotion of Saint Francis of Assisi for "the Lord Pope",the daughterly outspokenness of Saint Catherine of Siena towards the one whom she called "sweet Christ on earth", the apostolic obedience and the sentire cum Ecclesia of Saint Ignatius Loyola,and the joyful profession of faith made by Saint Teresa of Avila: "I am a daughter of the Church”

And to reiterate: None of such claims by any pope to this day has ever been publicly repudiated. Thus they still stand.

For Futurism per se is correct, because the Tribulation and subsequent Second-Coming prophecies of Revelation chapters 6 to 19 and Matthew 24 haven't yet been fulfilled, just as the prophecies of the subsequent Millennium (e.g. Revelation 20:4-6 and Zechariah 14) haven't yet been fulfilled.

Let me ensure that I understand you accurately.

You are claiming that futurism, which was a speculative contrivance created during the counter-Reformation era by an apostate Roman Catholic papacy, is correct; while the historic prophetic fulfillments believed and experienced by the Reformers whom God had raised up to deliver His Church from those spiritual dark ages; are not correct.

Could you confirm?

 

[Bible2+]

jgr said in post #57:

None of such claims by any pope to this day has ever been publicly repudiated.

Note that no pope has ever fulfilled the details regarding the future Antichrist.

For example, the Antichrist's mark, called "the mark of the beast" (Revelation 13:16-17, Revelation 16:2) will be a literal, physical mark which will be visible to people, so they can easily tell in every situation whether or not someone should be permitted to buy or sell (Revelation 13:17). It will also be visible because the original Greek of Revelation 13:16 shows the mark will be placed only "on" (epi), not inside, people's right hands or foreheads. Also, it will be placed on people probably by scarification. For in Revelation 13:16, one of the definitions of the original Greek word (charagma: G5480) translated as the "mark" is "a scratch or etching" (Strong's Greek Dictionary), and scarification is the scratching or etching (that is, the cutting) of the skin to leave a permanent mark. The reason people will be given the mark in Revelation 13:16, in the context of what was shown previously in Revelation 13:4,8,15, will be to serve as a visible indicator to other people they're loyal worshippers of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9) and of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) and his image (Revelation 13:4,8,15), just as some Luciferians today put a mark on themselves by scarification.

The mark will consist of only the Antichrist's name "or" some representation of the gematrial number of his name (666) (Revelation 13:17-18), meaning the mark will be the Antichrist's name for some people and a representation of the gematrial number of his name for other people. And the mark will be placed only on the right hand (probably on the palm) "or" on the forehead (Revelation 13:16), meaning it will be placed on the right hand of some people and on the forehead of other people.

Those who refuse to receive the Antichrist's mark won't be allowed to buy or sell anything (Revelation 13:17), and they will be executed by being beheaded if they refuse to worship the Antichrist and his image (Revelation 13:15, Revelation 20:4). Christians must be willing to suffer this fate rather than agree to receive the Antichrist's mark or worship him or his image, for those people who agree to do these things, even if they're Christians, will suffer God's wrath in fire and brimstone forever (Revelation 14:9-13), while those Christians who refuse to do these things, even though they will be beheaded by the Antichrist, will subsequently be physically resurrected into immortality (along with the rest of the obedient Church of all times) at Jesus Christ's Second Coming (Revelation 20:4-6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-58), immediately after the Tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). And even before their resurrection, at the moment of their death their still-conscious souls will be brought into the presence of Jesus in heaven (cf. 2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21,23, Revelation 6:9-10, Luke 23:43,46).

In the future, when the world begins to worship the Antichrist as God (Revelation 13:8; 2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36), some people could gladly be willing to have his name placed by scarification on their right palm, just as lovers in the past were sometimes known to have their loved ones' initials placed by scarification on their palm (compare also Isaiah 49:16, Jeremiah 48:37, Leviticus 19:28, and Leviticus 21:5). Other of the Antichrist's worshippers could gladly be willing to have his name placed by scarification on their forehead, thinking (mistakenly) that they're fulfilling the Christian idea of Revelation 22:4, which refers to the future point in time when Jesus will put God's name visibly on the forehead of obedient Christians (Revelation 3:12). The Antichrist's miracle-working False Prophet, who will be the one who will cause everyone to be marked with the Antichrist's mark (Revelation 13:16-18), could even convince people that he (the False Prophet) is Jesus returned. But he won't say he's Christ, for he and the Antichrist will deny Jesus is the Christ, and deny Christ is in the flesh (1 John 2:22; 2 John 1:7).

Instead of having the Antichrist's name engraved on their right hand or forehead, some of his worshippers will have the gematrial number of his name (666) (Revelation 13:17c-18) engraved on their right hand or forehead. But because some people could refuse to have "666" placed on their body, in order to make a mark of 666 acceptable to all people, it could be disguised to look like something else in those cases where people demand something other than "666". For example, it could be disguised in some cases to look like "777", or "111", or "WWW", or "VVV", or "|| || ||", or "FFF". For the 6th letter of the ancient Hebrew alphabet (Vav) represents the number 6, but it looks like a "7", or a "1", and it's transliterated into English as either a "W" or a "V". Also, two thin vertical lines "||" represent the number 6 on many UPC codes. And the letter "F" has a numerical value of 6 in English gematria.

In an awful coincidence (or maybe it's not just a coincidence), "FFF" also stands for an extremely powerful type of nuclear bomb: Fission-Fusion-Fission. Could this be the type of bomb which the 10 kings of the Antichrist's empire will employ to burn up the cities of the nations at the end of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Revelation 17:12,16-17a, Revelation 16:19, Revelation 19:2,11)?

The "WWW" which has been placed on many internet addresses, and the "|| || ||" which has been placed across many UPC codes on products (that is, they have a "||" at the beginning, middle, and end of their UPC codes), are harbingers of when Lucifer will give the Antichrist ownership of everything on the earth (Revelation 13:2b; cf. Luke 4:7), and of the Antichrist placing his "brand" on everything, like how a rancher places his "brand" on all his cattle. For both "WWW" and "|| || ||" are disguised representations of the gematrial number of the Antichrist's name: 666 (Revelation 13:17c-18). But Revelation 13:16 isn't fulfilled by some internet addresses having a "WWW", nor by some products having "|| || ||" on their UPC codes. For Revelation 13:16 refers only to when people will be given the Antichrist's mark, on either their right hand or forehead.

Those assigned to have the mark placed on their forehead (instead of on their right hand) (Revelation 13:16) could be an elite, illumined, cognoscenti class of Gnostic Luciferians who alone will have been given knowledge of the ultimate secrets of the Antichrist's Gnostic Luciferianism. The Antichrist will be both a Luciferian, a worshipper of Lucifer/Satan the dragon (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9), and a Gnostic, someone who denies Christ is in the flesh (1 John 4:3), and forbids marriage and the eating of meat (1 Timothy 4:1-3). The cream of his cognoscenti could be a faux 144,000, consisting of male virgins (as a counterfeit of Revelation 14:4) who have never eaten meat. If they receive on their forehead the mark of the Antichrist's name (instead of a representation of the number of his name) (Revelation 13:17), this will be as a counterfeit of YHWH's 144,000 in Revelation 14:1. But the Antichrist won't pretend he's YHWH, just as he won't pretend he's Christ. Instead, as a Gnostic, he will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36). And his Gnostic denial that Christ is in the flesh (1 John 4:3) will disqualify him (under his mistaken Gnostic doctrine) from being Christ.

jgr said in post #57:

You are claiming that futurism, which was a speculative contrivance created during the counter-Reformation era by an apostate Roman Catholic papacy, is correct . . .

Note that futurism is based on the details of the Bible itself, which have never been fulfilled with regard not only to the future Antichrist, but also more generally with regard to the future Tribulation.

That is, the Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, which Jesus Christ will return immediately after (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), hasn't started yet. It will begin with a horrible war, which, with its aftermath of famines and epidemics, will end up killing a fourth of the world (Revelation 6:4-8). The "great sword" of this war (Revelation 6:4) could be Israel's nuclear weapons. After this war, there will be a terrible series of natural disasters historically unprecedented in their magnitude, such as a gigantic volcanic eruption (Revelation 6:12-14), possibly of the Yellowstone Caldera, and then the collapse into the ocean of another erupting volcano (Revelation 8:8-9), possibly one of the Canary Islands, the collapse of which could set up a huge tsunami which could destroy the eastern seaboard of the U.S.

If such a tsunami occurs, it could also cause a string of awful, Fukushima-type, nuclear-meltdown radiation disasters in the nuclear power plants and their nuclear-waste storage facilities all along the eastern seaboard of the U.S. Also, if the tsunami breaks open the germ-containment structures on Plum Island, just off the coast of Connecticut, especially-deadly viruses and bacteria could be washed inland and spread across the U.S. and Canada as they infect animals and people.

After the volcanic activity and possible tsunami, a comet will strike the earth (Revelation 8:10-11), possibly in the U.S. and Canadian Great Lakes region. As the comet falls from the sky, it will look like a great star, or like a burning lamp in the sky (Revelation 8:10). It will strike a region of the earth which contains a third of the world's fresh surface water (Revelation 8:10b), and it will contain some poisonous element which will poison that water so that many who drink from it will die (Revelation 8:11b).

Sometime after that, weird locust-like beings will swarm up from the bottomless pit of the earth to torment mankind with excruciating stings for five months (Revelation 9:2-10). The world could see them as "aliens" who had been hibernating for thousands of years in a cavern deep underground. The locust-like beings won't kill anyone, but they will make those they sting want to die, the pain will be so bad (Revelation 9:5-6).

After that, an army of 200 million weird horse-like beings and their (possibly unclean spirit) riders will come upon the earth (Revelation 9:16-19). If they descend from the sky in spaceships, the world could see them as aliens. But they and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") could (falsely) say they're YHWH God's main army. In fact, they could be loyal to Lucifer (Satan, the dragon, Revelation 12:9). The four fallen angels now bound at the Euphrates who will lead this army (Revelation 9:14-16) could employ it to make mankind desperate before its takeover by Lucifer and the Antichrist mid-tribulation (Revelation 12:9 to 13:18). For when this army starts killing a third of mankind (Revelation 9:16-19), then could also begin one of the biggest deceptions ever wrought on humanity. For the Antichrist, who by that time could have managed to have been elected as the President of a Mediterranean Union formed by the joining of the European Union with an Arab Union stretching from Oman to Morocco, could announce to the world he has sent a mental distress call to (what he could call) "My Father, our Lord Lucifer, to come with his legions of angels, and rescue mankind from this murderous army of YHWH".

(And all this will be part of only the first half of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.)

It's at this point that Lucifer and his fallen angels could be cast down out of heaven to the earth permanently after losing a mid-tribulation war in heaven (Revelation 12:7-9). But instead of coming down as a defeated force, they could descend for all the world to see in gigantic, magnificent golden spaceships onto the "Champ de Mars", Mars being the same as Marduk the dragon, the chief god of ancient Babylon. The "Champ de Mars" is the large open area in front of the Eiffel Tower in Paris. After landing there, Lucifer, a literal seven-headed, red dragon (Revelation 12:3,9), could emerge in great splendor and command his angels to capture the army of 200 million weird horse-like beings and their (possibly unclean spirit) riders, who could then pretend to defect from serving YHWH to serving Lucifer. Lucifer could then confirm that he came to rescue mankind because the Antichrist, whom he could say is his only-begotten "Son", called upon him (like in an Antichrist counterfeit of Matthew 26:53). Lucifer and the Antichrist could then be received wholeheartedly by the unsaved world as the saviors of mankind. And the unsaved world could be left thinking (mistakenly) that Lucifer and his angels were more powerful than even YHWH God's main army.

Lucifer and the Antichrist, along with the Antichrist's miracle-working False Prophet, will then deceive the world into actually worshipping Lucifer and the Antichrist and a speaking (possibly an android) image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4-16, Revelation 19:20; 2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). And everyone will be made to receive a (possibly scarification) mark of the Antichrist either on their right hand or forehead, consisting of either the Antichrist's name or some representation of the gematrial number of his name (666) (Revelation 13:16-18). After Lucifer and the Antichrist have ruled the world for 3.5 literal years (Revelation 13:4-18), YHWH will send seven vials of wrath against the unsaved world (Revelation 16).

Near the end of these seven vials, unclean spirits like frogs will come out of the mouths of Lucifer, the Antichrist, and the False Prophet (Revelation 16:13). And these unclean spirits like frogs will go forth and perform amazing miracles to convince the world's armies to gather together at Armageddon (Har Megiddo: Mount Megiddo in northern Israel) (Revelation 16:16) to battle against YHWH himself (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19). After gathering together at Armageddon as a staging area, the world's armies will travel south and pillage Jerusalem, right before Jesus Christ (who is YHWH: John 10:30) returns from heaven and defeats them completely (Revelation 19:11 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:2-21).

When Jesus Christ returns, immediately after the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Revelation 19:7-21, Matthew 24:29-31), He will descend physically from heaven on a white horse (Revelation 19:7-21; 1 Thessalonians 4:16, Zechariah 14:3-4, Acts 1:11-12) with all the holy angels (Matthew 25:31; 2 Thessalonians 1:7) for all the world to see (Matthew 24:27,30, Revelation 1:7). Then the Church will be physically resurrected (if dead) or changed (if alive) into immortal physical bodies (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:16, Revelation 20:4-6) and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that meeting, Jesus will judge the Church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27; 2 Corinthians 5:10, Luke 12:45-48) and marry its obedient part (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12) in the clouds, before it mounts white horses and comes back down from sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as He defeats the world's armies (Revelation 19:19,21), and the Antichrist and False Prophet (Revelation 19:20), and has Lucifer (Satan) bound in the bottomless pit for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-3), a time period commonly called the Millennium.

At Jesus' return, He will also make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the obedient part of the Church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54), while the birds will feast on the corpses of the world's defeated armies (Revelation 19:17-18). Then Jesus and the obedient part of the Church will rule the surviving nations with a rod of iron during the Millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 2). After the Millennium, Lucifer will be released from the bottomless pit and bring about the Gog/Magog rebellion, only to be defeated for the last time (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

At least seven years after that defeat (Ezekiel 39:9b), the Great White Throne Judgment will occur, in which all those who hadn't been resurrected and judged at Jesus' return will be resurrected and judged (Revelation 20:11-15). Then God will create a New Heaven (a new first heaven: a new sky/atmosphere for the earth) and a New Earth (a new surface for the earth) (Revelation 21:1; 2 Peter 3:10b,13). Then God the Father will descend from the third heaven in the literal city of New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:2), the Father's house (John 14:2, Revelation 21:3), and He will dwell on the earth with Jesus and the Church (Revelation 21:3).

In one area outside the walls of New Jerusalem on the New Earth will be the lake of fire (Revelation 22:15, Revelation 21:8), in which all of unsaved humanity will suffer forever in fire and brimstone with Lucifer and his fallen angels (Revelation 20:10,15, Matthew 25:41,46).

 

[jgr]

Note that no pope has ever fulfilled the details regarding the future Antichrist.

Are the descriptions of the little horn in Dan. 7 descriptions of the future Antichrist?

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[jgr]

Are the descriptions of the little horn in Dan. 7 descriptions of the future Antichrist?

Silence typically signals assent.

Reiterating:

The ten kings of Dan. 7:24 find fulfillment in the ten kingdoms of the Heruli, Suevi, Burgundians, Huns, Ostrogoths, Visigoths, Vandals, Lombards, Franks, and Anglo-Saxons.

The little horn was a Roman power, growing as it did out of a Roman beast (v. 8). The Roman Catholic papacy, headquartered in Rome, is the fulfillment.

The little horn subdued three of the foregoing kings and kingdoms (v. 24), the Heruli, Vandals, and Ostrogoths. The papacy was the fulfillment.

The little horn was diverse (v. 24), or different, from the ten, in that it claimed spiritual as well as temporal power. The papacy claims superiority to every other institution, surpassing them “as far as the light of the sun exceeds that of the moon.” The papacy is the fulfillment.

The little horn was equipped with a mouth that spoke very great things (v. 20) against the most High (v. 25). There was and is no precedent for its claims, as already seen. The papacy is the fulfillment.

The little horn had eyes, and a look that was “more stout than his fellows.” (v. 20). This connotes its arrogated authority to inquire and interrogate, as evidenced by the inquisitions. The papacy was the fulfillment.

The little horn would make war with the saints (v. 21) and wear out the saints (v. 25). The persecutions and pogroms against the true Church over the centuries of the papacy are unparalleled in the annals of Christendom. The papacy was the fulfillment.

 

[Bible2+]

jgr said in post #63:

Are the descriptions of the little horn in Dan. 7 descriptions of the future Antichrist?

They refer to the future Antichrist's little country, Lebanon.

(See paragraph 3 of the Daniel 7 section of post #53 above)

jgr said in post #63:

The little horn would make war with the saints (v. 21) and wear out the saints (v. 25). The persecutions and pogroms against the true Church over the centuries of the papacy are unparalleled in the annals of Christendom. The papacy was the fulfillment.

Daniel 7:21,25, like Daniel 12:7b, refers to the future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist, the individual-man aspect of the beast (Revelation 13:4-18), which reign will occur during the second half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

Note that the papacy never fulfilled the details regarding the future Antichrist. For example, his image, called "the image of the beast" (Revelation 13:15) could be an android image of the Antichrist which the Antichrist's False Prophet (of Revelation 13:11-16, Revelation 19:20) could cause to be made after the Antichrist receives a terrible head wound (Revelation 13:3,14b). For this injury could leave the Antichrist's facial and bodily appearance permanently marred, and could render him unable to speak clearly, like someone after a bad stroke, so the Antichrist won't want to appear or speak in public again.

Did you ever see that movie "Dave"? It had a President who was in a coma, so his handlers found a regular guy who looked exactly like the President, and had him be a public stand-in for the President. He was able to speak just like the President did. It could be like that with the Antichrist's image. It could be the Antichrist's "Dave", his double, which appears and speaks (Revelation 13:15) before the world instead of his wounded self. But instead of letting people think the Antichrist's android image is the Antichrist himself, the False Prophet could tell people from the beginning the image isn't the Antichrist himself, but still fully represents him.

In Revelation 13:15, the original Greek word translated as "life" or "breath" (pneuma: G4151) can mean "spirit" in the sense of consciousness (1 Corinthians 2:11a, Luke 1:47), so that the android could appear to have a spirit, to have consciousness. The way this could be achieved would be through the android having wireless connections to huge banks of neural network supercomputers running highly advanced artificial intelligence software. The False Prophet could claim the Antichrist's consciousness dwells within the android by means of the neural networks having been imprinted with the Antichrist's own brain patterns. But this could be a lie, in that the android won't actually have the Antichrist's consciousness, or any true consciousness, but will only appear to have consciousness, by its being able to pass even the most stringent Turing Test. This is a test whereby one speaks with a computer and can't tell whether or not it has consciousness, because its answers are the same as if it had consciousness.

But the android's "consciousness" could appear far more advanced than any human's. For it could have access to huge databases containing every fact known to man, so that the android will appear omniscient. In this way, it could convince the world it's not just a machine, but a material incarnation, a machine avatar, of the true God, a literal "deus ex machina", a literal "God from a machine". And this machine "God" could boast not only of his mental powers, but also of his physical powers: his android body could be extremely strong. And he could boast of the "immortality" of his body, which could be made of titanium, covered with some practically everlasting flesh-like silicone. People could be completely awestruck by his (what they could call) "omniscient wisdom, his strength, his indestructibility". They could consider him more than worthy of worship by (in their words) "mere humanity, which is so mentally and physically limited, made out of mere flesh and blood, which is so weak and so mortal". The world will actually worship the Antichrist's image (Revelation 13:15), just as it will actually worship Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) and the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4,8, Revelation 12:9).

The Antichrist's image could be placed standing in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a third Jewish temple in Jerusalem, so that the image will become the abomination of desolation (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31). And in order to make it easy for everyone in the world to see the image and worship it (Revelation 13:15), it could appear on every smartphone, tablet, laptop, television, GPS navigation system, and electronic billboard at set times each day. And to make it possible for everyone to interact with it personally, it could appear as a computer-generated image on each individual's smartphone, speaking in and understanding each individual's language, conversing with each individual with personalized messages and responses devised by supercomputers running artificial intelligence and language software.

And it could discuss with them even the most intimate details of their lives, for it could have access to huge databases compiled by the Antichrist's worldwide intelligence, law enforcement, economic, and health agencies, databases containing all the facts about everyone: who their family and friends are, where they live and work, who their neighbors and coworkers are, how much they make, what cars and properties they own and use, where they go, where they shop, what they buy, where they eat out, what shows and videos they watch, what they read, what they say, what they post on the internet, what their health problems are, etc., so that the Antichrist's image could seem to know everything about everyone.

And the worship of the image could be connected with a daily surveillance and subjugation of everyone. For the image's supercomputers could make his image automatically appear on everyone's smartphone at set times each day to be worshipped. And smartphones contain GPS chips which can be secretly pinged remotely in order to determine the exact location of the smartphones. So when the image appears on everyone's smartphone, the image's supercomputers could ping the GPS chip of everyone's smartphone and know exactly where everyone is.

Also, smartphones contain cameras and microphones, which can be remotely opened secretly in order to see and hear what's going on around the smartphones. So when the image appears on everyone's smartphone, the image's supercomputers could open the cameras and microphones of everyone's smartphone to determine what everyone is doing and saying, and the image could then demand the individuals worship him as God, saying some set prayer of praise and adoration. And if any individual refuses, the image's supercomputers could detect his noncompliance, and notify the nearest police officers of his exact location, and order the officers to arrest him for blasphemy and treason. He could then be given a chance to be "reformed" (that is, in a brainwashing prison, or through physical torture, if necessary), but if he proves recalcitrant, he will be executed (Revelation 13:15) by being beheaded (Revelation 20:4).

The beheading process itself could be made into a televised and webcasted spectacle, to serve not only as a dire warning to anyone thinking of refusing to worship the image, but also to serve as an amazingly horrific entertainment for the masses, like how the ancient Romans made it an entertainment for the masses to gather them into the Colosseum in Rome and let them watch Christians being thrown to lions and devoured alive.

Huge beheading structures could be built, by which 20 "traitors" could be beheaded at one time by one fall of one blade. The "traitors" could be bound in a row along an upright "U"-shaped device with a track for a large guillotine blade, which could start out in a resting position at the top of one side. The blade could be so massive and so sharp that when it's released it will easily slice down through 10 necks on one side of the "U" and continue by its own momentum up the other side of the "U", shearing off another 10 heads. This could happen so quickly it will appear as if all 20 heads are struck off almost in unison, followed immediately by 20 geysers of blood rushing out in unison for all the Antichrist's "faithful" to gawk at and cheer over in the comfort of their own homes before their televisions and computers.

Also, immediately after the show, at the site where it took place, teams of surgeons could rush in to "harvest" all the fresh organs and other body parts from the beheaded bodies to be used for transplants (beheading being the best way for a body to die if you want to harvest its parts). What's left of the bodies could then be stuffed in shipping containers, which, once full, could be painted black and stacked like stones into a gigantic "Black Pyramid of Death", which could eventually reach some 30 stories high and contain tens of millions of bodies. A huge plaque could be erected in front of the Pyramid which will read: "This is a monument to the shame of YHWH, who created everything to die". (Of course, the truth is He didn't, for He created Adam and Eve immortal; it wasn't until they sinned that they became mortal: Genesis 2:17. And YHWH will restore immortality to Christians through Jesus Christ: Romans 6:23. Also, any such plaque would be hypocritical, for it will be the Antichrist who will have murdered the people entombed in the Pyramid, not YHWH. And so it will actually be a monument to how those who hate YHWH and his wisdom, love death: Proverbs 8:36b.)

Regarding the worship of the Antichrist's image, to help foster a group dynamic, every neighborhood and village in the world could be helped to create a group worship center in which everyone in that neighborhood or village will have to gather together at a set time each evening to bow down and prostrate himself or herself before a life-size, lifelike image of the Antichrist, which could be a computer-generated, animated, holographic or widescreen 3D HDTV image of him clothed in beautiful golden robes and standing majestically before them (or sitting on a magnificent golden throne), and speaking computer-generated customized messages to them as a group.

This worship could be accompanied by the most beautiful symphonic music (cf. Daniel 3:5), or whatever is the most beautiful music to the local people, to help them (in the words of the Antichrist's propaganda machine) "Be uplifted into the true spirit of praise and worship of our Great Lord and Master. Praised be His Majestic Name forever and ever!", etc. And what with the wonderful music, and all their fellow worshippers around them, and customized messages of encouragement spoken in a deep, soothing voice by a life-size, holographic or 3D HDTV image of the Antichrist to certain members of each "worship group", some people in each group could really get into the evening worship sessions, and even (in their words) "Truly feel the Living Presence of our loving God among us, loving us so tenderly, so personally! Oh, how I love Him! He's So Great!"

For example, as a worshipper named Mary, a housewife with two little children, is bowing down before the image of the Antichrist, he could speak forth to her: "Mary! Mary! My beloved handmaid! You are so precious to me, my love. You so faithfully take care of dear little Johnnie and Michelle, whom I have entrusted to you, that you might raise them up to become My servants and faithful worshippers, just as you are. How I love thee, my Mary. How I cherish thee, my precious dove!". And poor Mary could begin to cry with happiness over her dear Lord's kind words to her, not realizing they're merely the concoction of an artificial-intelligence program running in a neural network supercomputer down in the basement of some government building.

Also, the world's worship of the Antichrist's image (Revelation 13:15), no matter how blissful it may become for some people, and the world's worship of the Antichrist and Lucifer (Satan) the dragon (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9), will last for less than four years (Revelation 13:5, Daniel 12:11-12) before Jesus Christ returns from heaven and completely defeats the Antichrist and Lucifer, and the Antichrist's False Prophet (Revelation 19:20 to 20:3), and Jesus then sets up his own, 1,000-year physical kingdom on the earth with the physically resurrected Church (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

 

[jgr]

They refer to the future Antichrist's little country, Lebanon.

(See paragraph 3 of the Daniel 7 section of post #53 above)



Daniel 7:21,25, like Daniel 12:7b, refers to the future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist, the individual-man aspect of the beast (Revelation 13:4-18), which reign will occur during the second half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

Note that the papacy never fulfilled the details regarding the future Antichrist. For example, his image, called "the image of the beast" (Revelation 13:15) could be an android image of the Antichrist which the Antichrist's False Prophet (of Revelation 13:11-16, Revelation 19:20) could cause to be made after the Antichrist receives a terrible head wound (Revelation 13:3,14b). For this injury could leave the Antichrist's facial and bodily appearance permanently marred, and could render him unable to speak clearly, like someone after a bad stroke, so the Antichrist won't want to appear or speak in public again.

Did you ever see that movie "Dave"? It had a President who was in a coma, so his handlers found a regular guy who looked exactly like the President, and had him be a public stand-in for the President. He was able to speak just like the President did. It could be like that with the Antichrist's image. It could be the Antichrist's "Dave", his double, which appears and speaks (Revelation 13:15) before the world instead of his wounded self. But instead of letting people think the Antichrist's android image is the Antichrist himself, the False Prophet could tell people from the beginning the image isn't the Antichrist himself, but still fully represents him.

In Revelation 13:15, the original Greek word translated as "life" or "breath" (pneuma: G4151) can mean "spirit" in the sense of consciousness (1 Corinthians 2:11a, Luke 1:47), so that the android could appear to have a spirit, to have consciousness. The way this could be achieved would be through the android having wireless connections to huge banks of neural network supercomputers running highly advanced artificial intelligence software. The False Prophet could claim the Antichrist's consciousness dwells within the android by means of the neural networks having been imprinted with the Antichrist's own brain patterns. But this could be a lie, in that the android won't actually have the Antichrist's consciousness, or any true consciousness, but will only appear to have consciousness, by its being able to pass even the most stringent Turing Test. This is a test whereby one speaks with a computer and can't tell whether or not it has consciousness, because its answers are the same as if it had consciousness.

But the android's "consciousness" could appear far more advanced than any human's. For it could have access to huge databases containing every fact known to man, so that the android will appear omniscient. In this way, it could convince the world it's not just a machine, but a material incarnation, a machine avatar, of the true God, a literal "deus ex machina", a literal "God from a machine". And this machine "God" could boast not only of his mental powers, but also of his physical powers: his android body could be extremely strong. And he could boast of the "immortality" of his body, which could be made of titanium, covered with some practically everlasting flesh-like silicone. People could be completely awestruck by his (what they could call) "omniscient wisdom, his strength, his indestructibility". They could consider him more than worthy of worship by (in their words) "mere humanity, which is so mentally and physically limited, made out of mere flesh and blood, which is so weak and so mortal". The world will actually worship the Antichrist's image (Revelation 13:15), just as it will actually worship Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) and the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4,8, Revelation 12:9).

The Antichrist's image could be placed standing in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a third Jewish temple in Jerusalem, so that the image will become the abomination of desolation (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31). And in order to make it easy for everyone in the world to see the image and worship it (Revelation 13:15), it could appear on every smartphone, tablet, laptop, television, GPS navigation system, and electronic billboard at set times each day. And to make it possible for everyone to interact with it personally, it could appear as a computer-generated image on each individual's smartphone, speaking in and understanding each individual's language, conversing with each individual with personalized messages and responses devised by supercomputers running artificial intelligence and language software.

And it could discuss with them even the most intimate details of their lives, for it could have access to huge databases compiled by the Antichrist's worldwide intelligence, law enforcement, economic, and health agencies, databases containing all the facts about everyone: who their family and friends are, where they live and work, who their neighbors and coworkers are, how much they make, what cars and properties they own and use, where they go, where they shop, what they buy, where they eat out, what shows and videos they watch, what they read, what they say, what they post on the internet, what their health problems are, etc., so that the Antichrist's image could seem to know everything about everyone.

And the worship of the image could be connected with a daily surveillance and subjugation of everyone. For the image's supercomputers could make his image automatically appear on everyone's smartphone at set times each day to be worshipped. And smartphones contain GPS chips which can be secretly pinged remotely in order to determine the exact location of the smartphones. So when the image appears on everyone's smartphone, the image's supercomputers could ping the GPS chip of everyone's smartphone and know exactly where everyone is.

Also, smartphones contain cameras and microphones, which can be remotely opened secretly in order to see and hear what's going on around the smartphones. So when the image appears on everyone's smartphone, the image's supercomputers could open the cameras and microphones of everyone's smartphone to determine what everyone is doing and saying, and the image could then demand the individuals worship him as God, saying some set prayer of praise and adoration. And if any individual refuses, the image's supercomputers could detect his noncompliance, and notify the nearest police officers of his exact location, and order the officers to arrest him for blasphemy and treason. He could then be given a chance to be "reformed" (that is, in a brainwashing prison, or through physical torture, if necessary), but if he proves recalcitrant, he will be executed (Revelation 13:15) by being beheaded (Revelation 20:4).

The beheading process itself could be made into a televised and webcasted spectacle, to serve not only as a dire warning to anyone thinking of refusing to worship the image, but also to serve as an amazingly horrific entertainment for the masses, like how the ancient Romans made it an entertainment for the masses to gather them into the Colosseum in Rome and let them watch Christians being thrown to lions and devoured alive.

Huge beheading structures could be built, by which 20 "traitors" could be beheaded at one time by one fall of one blade. The "traitors" could be bound in a row along an upright "U"-shaped device with a track for a large guillotine blade, which could start out in a resting position at the top of one side. The blade could be so massive and so sharp that when it's released it will easily slice down through 10 necks on one side of the "U" and continue by its own momentum up the other side of the "U", shearing off another 10 heads. This could happen so quickly it will appear as if all 20 heads are struck off almost in unison, followed immediately by 20 geysers of blood rushing out in unison for all the Antichrist's "faithful" to gawk at and cheer over in the comfort of their own homes before their televisions and computers.

Also, immediately after the show, at the site where it took place, teams of surgeons could rush in to "harvest" all the fresh organs and other body parts from the beheaded bodies to be used for transplants (beheading being the best way for a body to die if you want to harvest its parts). What's left of the bodies could then be stuffed in shipping containers, which, once full, could be painted black and stacked like stones into a gigantic "Black Pyramid of Death", which could eventually reach some 30 stories high and contain tens of millions of bodies. A huge plaque could be erected in front of the Pyramid which will read: "This is a monument to the shame of YHWH, who created everything to die". (Of course, the truth is He didn't, for He created Adam and Eve immortal; it wasn't until they sinned that they became mortal: Genesis 2:17. And YHWH will restore immortality to Christians through Jesus Christ: Romans 6:23. Also, any such plaque would be hypocritical, for it will be the Antichrist who will have murdered the people entombed in the Pyramid, not YHWH. And so it will actually be a monument to how those who hate YHWH and his wisdom, love death: Proverbs 8:36b.)

Regarding the worship of the Antichrist's image, to help foster a group dynamic, every neighborhood and village in the world could be helped to create a group worship center in which everyone in that neighborhood or village will have to gather together at a set time each evening to bow down and prostrate himself or herself before a life-size, lifelike image of the Antichrist, which could be a computer-generated, animated, holographic or widescreen 3D HDTV image of him clothed in beautiful golden robes and standing majestically before them (or sitting on a magnificent golden throne), and speaking computer-generated customized messages to them as a group.

This worship could be accompanied by the most beautiful symphonic music (cf. Daniel 3:5), or whatever is the most beautiful music to the local people, to help them (in the words of the Antichrist's propaganda machine) "Be uplifted into the true spirit of praise and worship of our Great Lord and Master. Praised be His Majestic Name forever and ever!", etc. And what with the wonderful music, and all their fellow worshippers around them, and customized messages of encouragement spoken in a deep, soothing voice by a life-size, holographic or 3D HDTV image of the Antichrist to certain members of each "worship group", some people in each group could really get into the evening worship sessions, and even (in their words) "Truly feel the Living Presence of our loving God among us, loving us so tenderly, so personally! Oh, how I love Him! He's So Great!"

For example, as a worshipper named Mary, a housewife with two little children, is bowing down before the image of the Antichrist, he could speak forth to her: "Mary! Mary! My beloved handmaid! You are so precious to me, my love. You so faithfully take care of dear little Johnnie and Michelle, whom I have entrusted to you, that you might raise them up to become My servants and faithful worshippers, just as you are. How I love thee, my Mary. How I cherish thee, my precious dove!". And poor Mary could begin to cry with happiness over her dear Lord's kind words to her, not realizing they're merely the concoction of an artificial-intelligence program running in a neural network supercomputer down in the basement of some government building.

Also, the world's worship of the Antichrist's image (Revelation 13:15), no matter how blissful it may become for some people, and the world's worship of the Antichrist and Lucifer (Satan) the dragon (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9), will last for less than four years (Revelation 13:5, Daniel 12:11-12) before Jesus Christ returns from heaven and completely defeats the Antichrist and Lucifer, and the Antichrist's False Prophet (Revelation 19:20 to 20:3), and Jesus then sets up his own, 1,000-year physical kingdom on the earth with the physically resurrected Church (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

This is all certainly nothing if not imaginative.

I counted the word "could" used 54 times in the discourse. I do commend you for the use of that word, denoting conjecture, rather than "will" or "shall" which other authors in their dogma would insist on using.

But, back to small bites to digest.

They refer to the future Antichrist's little country, Lebanon.

The only location-related information associated with the little horn in Dan. 7 is that of Rome, or the Roman Empire, from which the little horn arose. Where does Lebanon appear?

Note that the papacy never fulfilled the details regarding the future Antichrist. For example, his image, called "the image of the beast" (Revelation 13:15)...

There's no mention of antichrist in Dan. 7, only of the little horn.

Note that the expression "little horn" appears only in the book of Daniel, so while the language of Rev. 13 is similar, the "little horn" does not appear therein, thus a connection cannot be directly drawn. Our focus is exclusively on the little horn in Dan. 7.

So which details associated with the little horn in Dan. 7 are not fulfilled by the papacy?

 

[Bible2+]

jgr said in post #68:

The only location-related information associated with the little horn in Dan. 7 is that of Rome, or the Roman Empire, from which the little horn arose. Where does Lebanon appear?

Lebanon is a little country which arose from the former territory of the Roman empire.

Just as in Daniel 7:17 the four "kings" were four kingdoms/empires, the Roman empire being the fourth (Daniel 7:23); and just as the two horns in Daniel 8:3 which Alexander the Great broke in Daniel 8:7 were the two kingdoms of the Medes and the Persians (that is, the Medo-Persian empire) (Cyrus and Darius had already been dead for about 200 and 150 years, respectively, by the time of Alexander's conquest); and just as the four horns in Daniel 8:8 were four kingdoms (Daniel 8:22); so in Daniel 7:24 the ten horns/"kings" can be ten major kingdoms/nations which exist today, and which arose into prominence from the former territory of the Roman empire. "And another shall rise after them" (Daniel 7:24) can refer to the country of Lebanon, from which the Antichrist could arise and bring to prominence on the world stage. The Antichrist could come from Lebanon's modern city of Tyre (Ezekiel 28:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:4).

-

If Ezekiel 28:2 has application to future events because of its similarity to the never-fulfilled 2 Thessalonians 2:4, then the prince of Tyre could be the future human ruler commonly called the Antichrist (Daniel 11:36, Revelation 13:5-18). If that is the case, then the king of Tyre (Ezekiel 28:12) could be Lucifer (Satan, the dragon), who will empower the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9; 2 Thessalonians 2:9). Lucifer, before his fall and Adam's fall, could have been placed as a covering cherub over Eden (Ezekiel 28:13-15).

There is a curious correlation between the prince and the king of Tyre on the one hand (Ezekiel 28), and the use of the name "Hiram" in the mystical teachings of a worldwide secret society which teaches Gnostic Luciferianism at its highest degree of initiation. For Hiram was the name of the human king of Tyre at the time of the building of king Solomon's temple (1 Kings 5). Also, Hiram was the name of another person from Tyre, the human master workman who helped Solomon to build the temple (1 Kings 7:13-14). If the king and the prince of Tyre addressed in Ezekiel 28 are Lucifer and the Antichrist, then the name "Hiram" would be a perfect code name (not the actual name) for both of them, a name by which their identity within the Gnostic Luciferian teachings of the worldwide secret society could be kept secret from all but its highest-level initiates. Just as the human workman named Hiram built a temple to God in which all the world was to worship (1 Kings 8:41-43), so the Antichrist will bring the world into the conscious and open worship of Lucifer (Revelation 13:4), when the Antichrist gains power over the earth (Revelation 13:7).

The Antichrist's future, Luciferian rule over the earth could be pictured by the most common, publicly known symbol for the worldwide secret society, in which a drafting/measuring compass, an instrument shaped like the two legs of an "A" (as in "Antichrist"), is sometimes shown standing on top of a globe of the earth. And beneath, as in support of, the "A" is a drafting/measuring square, an instrument shaped like an "L" (as in "Lucifer"). Also, found within the "L" is the letter "G", which could ultimately stand for the (false) "Gnosis" (knowledge) of Gnosticism (cf. the original Greek of 1 Timothy 6:20b), which the secret society (mistakenly) thinks can be found in Lucifer. The Antichrist will teach the ancient Gnostic lie that YHWH God is evil (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36), and the ancient Gnostic lie that Christ is not in the flesh (1 John 4:3). The Antichrist will also deny that Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22).

-

Ultimately, the power behind the future Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") will be Lucifer/Satan (the dragon) (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9; 2 Thessalonians 2:9), just as the controllers of the unsaved world have always been (and are still currently) Lucifer and his fallen angels (Ephesians 6:12, Ephesians 2:2-3). But there could also be a secret cabal of human world leaders in big business, finance, intelligence agencies, federal law enforcement, politics, the media/entertainment, the military, and religion, who know this fact, and so have secretly become worshippers of Lucifer in order to obtain from him all of the world's power, wealth, and pleasures that they can (cf. Matthew 4:9).

These Luciferians could have been working secretly together for some time (including through a worldwide secret society which teaches Gnostic Luciferianism at its highest degree of initiation) to prepare the way politically, economically, culturally, militarily, and religiously for a single Luciferian human world leader (the Antichrist) to take hegemony over the whole earth (Revelation 13:7b) and, along with his miracle-working False Prophet, to bring the world into the conscious and open worship of Lucifer and the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 19:20). God will let them succeed in this, but for less than four years (Revelation 13:5b, Daniel 12:11-12), before Jesus Christ returns from heaven and defeats them completely (Revelation 19:20 to 20:3). Jesus will then set up his own, 1,000-year, physical kingdom on the earth with the physically resurrected Church (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:8-21).

jgr said in post #68:

Our focus is exclusively on the little horn in Dan. 7.

Note that just as the future Antichrist's country will fulfill the details of the little horn in Daniel 7, so it will fulfill the details of the little horn in Daniel 8.

In Daniel 8, the ram represented the ancient empire of the Medes and Persians (Daniel 8:20). The goat represented the ancient empire of the Greeks, beginning with Alexander the Great (Daniel 8:21). After he died, his empire broke up into four Diadochian Greek kingdoms (Daniel 8:22).

Daniel 8:8-9,21-25 means that the future Antichrist will come from a country the territory of which used to be part of one of these four Diadochian Greek kingdoms. For Daniel 8:9 means that the Antichrist will come out of one of the four kingdoms referred to in Daniel 8:22. And while Antiochus IV could have fulfilled Daniel 8:9,23-25 typically, the Antichrist will fulfill it antitypically. The Antichrist will fulfill Daniel 8:24a because he will be mighty, but not by his own power (Revelation 13:4; 2 Thessalonians 2:9). And he will fulfill Daniel 8:24b because he will prosper, and will physically destroy the holy people, the church (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13). And he will fulfill Daniel 8:25a because he will magnify himself (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). And he will fulfill Daniel 8:25b because he will stand up against the Prince of princes (Revelation 19:19), Jesus Christ, but will be broken without hand (Revelation 19:20).

jgr said in post #68:

Our focus is exclusively on the little horn in Dan. 7.

Our focus should be on the Biblical details regarding the future Antichrist, which weren't fulfilled by the papacy.

For example, note that Christians need to be careful not to be deceived by the Gnostic/antichrist lie that Christ isn't in the flesh (2 John 1:7) and that Christians won't forever be in the flesh. For the Bible shows that on the third day after His death (Luke 24:46; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4), Jesus Christ wasn't resurrected as a disembodied spirit, but in his human, flesh and bones body (Luke 24:39, Hebrews 2:17). That's why His tomb is empty (Matthew 28:6), and why He still has the wounds of the crucifixion on His resurrection body (John 20:25-29). And Luke 24:39 didn't stop being true once Jesus ascended into heaven. For He will remain forever the human mediator/high priest of Christians (1 Timothy 2:5, Hebrews 7:24-26), in human flesh, just like they're in human flesh (Hebrews 2:17). And when He returns, He will still have the wounds of the crucifixion on His resurrection body (Zechariah 13:6, Zechariah 12:10-14).

Gnosticism mistakenly thinks that flesh is evil in itself, and that only pure spirit can be good. But Jesus proves that flesh isn't evil in itself, for He has been made flesh (John 1:1,14, Romans 1:3, Luke 24:39), and remains wholly without sin (Hebrews 4:15). Genesis also proves that flesh isn't evil in itself, but was created by God as something very good (Genesis 1:31). Adam and Eve were flesh, for they were the progenitors of the human race alive today. And they were immortal before they fell into sin, for it was only their falling into sin which made them become mortal (Genesis 2:17). So Adam and Eve started out as immortal flesh. And so the future resurrection (if dead) or changing (if alive) of saved people into immortal flesh bodies like Jesus has (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39, Romans 8:23-25) will be God allowing them to partake of the original, immortal-flesh condition of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden before their fall into sin.

Also, beware the more-general Gnostic lie that even the entire physical universe is evil in itself, and that only a purely-spiritual heaven can be good. For this lie is employed by Gnosticism to wrongly revile the Creator God YHWH as an evil, tyrant, lesser god, whom Gnosticism says created the physical universe to be the foul prison house of human spirits, whom Gnosticism says by some mistake fell from bliss in a purely-spiritual heaven down into the physical universe, to become trapped in suffering, fleshly bodies. No doubt the future Antichrist will employ this lie as part of his utter reviling of YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36). But Genesis shows that our physical world was created by YHWH as something very good (Genesis 1:31).

And the Bible shows that the whole plan of Creation wasn't that humans, who are both flesh and spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:23, Luke 24:39), would become purely-spiritual ghosts and float forever on clouds in a purely-spiritual heaven with God, but that God would become both flesh and spirit like man (John 1:1,14), and that God would ultimately come down from heaven to live with man on a future, new earth (Revelation 21:1-4), just as God had walked on the earth in the Garden of Eden with Adam and Eve (Genesis 3:8). Also, on the new earth, saved humanity will be allowed to eat from the literal tree of life (Revelation 2:7, Revelation 22:2,14), just as Adam and Eve hadn't been forbidden to eat from it in their unfallen state (Genesis 2:9,16-17). So, with regard to saved people, God will completely undo the effect of the fall of Adam and Eve. Saved people will be able to live in an earthly, physical paradise forever with God (Revelation 2:7), just as Adam and Eve and their descendants might have done had not Adam and Eve fallen into sin.

So beware the Gnostic lie. Beware the Antichrist.

 

[jgr]

Lebanon is a little country which arose from the former territory of the Roman empire.

Just as in Daniel 7:17 the four "kings" were four kingdoms/empires, the Roman empire being the fourth (Daniel 7:23); and just as the two horns in Daniel 8:3 which Alexander the Great broke in Daniel 8:7 were the two kingdoms of the Medes and the Persians (that is, the Medo-Persian empire) (Cyrus and Darius had already been dead for about 200 and 150 years, respectively, by the time of Alexander's conquest); and just as the four horns in Daniel 8:8 were four kingdoms (Daniel 8:22); so in Daniel 7:24 the ten horns/"kings" can be ten major kingdoms/nations which exist today, and which arose into prominence from the former territory of the Roman empire. "And another shall rise after them" (Daniel 7:24) can refer to the country of Lebanon, from which the Antichrist could arise and bring to prominence on the world stage. The Antichrist could come from Lebanon's modern city of Tyre (Ezekiel 28:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:4).

-

If Ezekiel 28:2 has application to future events because of its similarity to the never-fulfilled 2 Thessalonians 2:4, then the prince of Tyre could be the future human ruler commonly called the Antichrist (Daniel 11:36, Revelation 13:5-18). If that is the case, then the king of Tyre (Ezekiel 28:12) could be Lucifer (Satan, the dragon), who will empower the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9; 2 Thessalonians 2:9). Lucifer, before his fall and Adam's fall, could have been placed as a covering cherub over Eden (Ezekiel 28:13-15).

There is a curious correlation between the prince and the king of Tyre on the one hand (Ezekiel 28), and the use of the name "Hiram" in the mystical teachings of a worldwide secret society which teaches Gnostic Luciferianism at its highest degree of initiation. For Hiram was the name of the human king of Tyre at the time of the building of king Solomon's temple (1 Kings 5). Also, Hiram was the name of another person from Tyre, the human master workman who helped Solomon to build the temple (1 Kings 7:13-14). If the king and the prince of Tyre addressed in Ezekiel 28 are Lucifer and the Antichrist, then the name "Hiram" would be a perfect code name (not the actual name) for both of them, a name by which their identity within the Gnostic Luciferian teachings of the worldwide secret society could be kept secret from all but its highest-level initiates. Just as the human workman named Hiram built a temple to God in which all the world was to worship (1 Kings 8:41-43), so the Antichrist will bring the world into the conscious and open worship of Lucifer (Revelation 13:4), when the Antichrist gains power over the earth (Revelation 13:7).

The Antichrist's future, Luciferian rule over the earth could be pictured by the most common, publicly known symbol for the worldwide secret society, in which a drafting/measuring compass, an instrument shaped like the two legs of an "A" (as in "Antichrist"), is sometimes shown standing on top of a globe of the earth. And beneath, as in support of, the "A" is a drafting/measuring square, an instrument shaped like an "L" (as in "Lucifer"). Also, found within the "L" is the letter "G", which could ultimately stand for the (false) "Gnosis" (knowledge) of Gnosticism (cf. the original Greek of 1 Timothy 6:20b), which the secret society (mistakenly) thinks can be found in Lucifer. The Antichrist will teach the ancient Gnostic lie that YHWH God is evil (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36), and the ancient Gnostic lie that Christ is not in the flesh (1 John 4:3). The Antichrist will also deny that Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22).

-

Ultimately, the power behind the future Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") will be Lucifer/Satan (the dragon) (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9; 2 Thessalonians 2:9), just as the controllers of the unsaved world have always been (and are still currently) Lucifer and his fallen angels (Ephesians 6:12, Ephesians 2:2-3). But there could also be a secret cabal of human world leaders in big business, finance, intelligence agencies, federal law enforcement, politics, the media/entertainment, the military, and religion, who know this fact, and so have secretly become worshippers of Lucifer in order to obtain from him all of the world's power, wealth, and pleasures that they can (cf. Matthew 4:9).

These Luciferians could have been working secretly together for some time (including through a worldwide secret society which teaches Gnostic Luciferianism at its highest degree of initiation) to prepare the way politically, economically, culturally, militarily, and religiously for a single Luciferian human world leader (the Antichrist) to take hegemony over the whole earth (Revelation 13:7b) and, along with his miracle-working False Prophet, to bring the world into the conscious and open worship of Lucifer and the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 19:20). God will let them succeed in this, but for less than four years (Revelation 13:5b, Daniel 12:11-12), before Jesus Christ returns from heaven and defeats them completely (Revelation 19:20 to 20:3). Jesus will then set up his own, 1,000-year, physical kingdom on the earth with the physically resurrected Church (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:8-21).



Note that just as the future Antichrist's country will fulfill the details of the little horn in Daniel 7, so it will fulfill the details of the little horn in Daniel 8.

In Daniel 8, the ram represented the ancient empire of the Medes and Persians (Daniel 8:20). The goat represented the ancient empire of the Greeks, beginning with Alexander the Great (Daniel 8:21). After he died, his empire broke up into four Diadochian Greek kingdoms (Daniel 8:22).

Daniel 8:8-9,21-25 means that the future Antichrist will come from a country the territory of which used to be part of one of these four Diadochian Greek kingdoms. For Daniel 8:9 means that the Antichrist will come out of one of the four kingdoms referred to in Daniel 8:22. And while Antiochus IV could have fulfilled Daniel 8:9,23-25 typically, the Antichrist will fulfill it antitypically. The Antichrist will fulfill Daniel 8:24a because he will be mighty, but not by his own power (Revelation 13:4; 2 Thessalonians 2:9). And he will fulfill Daniel 8:24b because he will prosper, and will physically destroy the holy people, the church (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13). And he will fulfill Daniel 8:25a because he will magnify himself (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). And he will fulfill Daniel 8:25b because he will stand up against the Prince of princes (Revelation 19:19), Jesus Christ, but will be broken without hand (Revelation 19:20).



Our focus should be on the Biblical details regarding the future Antichrist, which weren't fulfilled by the papacy.

For example, note that Christians need to be careful not to be deceived by the Gnostic/antichrist lie that Christ isn't in the flesh (2 John 1:7) and that Christians won't forever be in the flesh. For the Bible shows that on the third day after His death (Luke 24:46; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4), Jesus Christ wasn't resurrected as a disembodied spirit, but in his human, flesh and bones body (Luke 24:39, Hebrews 2:17). That's why His tomb is empty (Matthew 28:6), and why He still has the wounds of the crucifixion on His resurrection body (John 20:25-29). And Luke 24:39 didn't stop being true once Jesus ascended into heaven. For He will remain forever the human mediator/high priest of Christians (1 Timothy 2:5, Hebrews 7:24-26), in human flesh, just like they're in human flesh (Hebrews 2:17). And when He returns, He will still have the wounds of the crucifixion on His resurrection body (Zechariah 13:6, Zechariah 12:10-14).

Gnosticism mistakenly thinks that flesh is evil in itself, and that only pure spirit can be good. But Jesus proves that flesh isn't evil in itself, for He has been made flesh (John 1:1,14, Romans 1:3, Luke 24:39), and remains wholly without sin (Hebrews 4:15). Genesis also proves that flesh isn't evil in itself, but was created by God as something very good (Genesis 1:31). Adam and Eve were flesh, for they were the progenitors of the human race alive today. And they were immortal before they fell into sin, for it was only their falling into sin which made them become mortal (Genesis 2:17). So Adam and Eve started out as immortal flesh. And so the future resurrection (if dead) or changing (if alive) of saved people into immortal flesh bodies like Jesus has (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39, Romans 8:23-25) will be God allowing them to partake of the original, immortal-flesh condition of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden before their fall into sin.

Also, beware the more-general Gnostic lie that even the entire physical universe is evil in itself, and that only a purely-spiritual heaven can be good. For this lie is employed by Gnosticism to wrongly revile the Creator God YHWH as an evil, tyrant, lesser god, whom Gnosticism says created the physical universe to be the foul prison house of human spirits, whom Gnosticism says by some mistake fell from bliss in a purely-spiritual heaven down into the physical universe, to become trapped in suffering, fleshly bodies. No doubt the future Antichrist will employ this lie as part of his utter reviling of YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36). But Genesis shows that our physical world was created by YHWH as something very good (Genesis 1:31).

And the Bible shows that the whole plan of Creation wasn't that humans, who are both flesh and spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:23, Luke 24:39), would become purely-spiritual ghosts and float forever on clouds in a purely-spiritual heaven with God, but that God would become both flesh and spirit like man (John 1:1,14), and that God would ultimately come down from heaven to live with man on a future, new earth (Revelation 21:1-4), just as God had walked on the earth in the Garden of Eden with Adam and Eve (Genesis 3:8). Also, on the new earth, saved humanity will be allowed to eat from the literal tree of life (Revelation 2:7, Revelation 22:2,14), just as Adam and Eve hadn't been forbidden to eat from it in their unfallen state (Genesis 2:9,16-17). So, with regard to saved people, God will completely undo the effect of the fall of Adam and Eve. Saved people will be able to live in an earthly, physical paradise forever with God (Revelation 2:7), just as Adam and Eve and their descendants might have done had not Adam and Eve fallen into sin.

So beware the Gnostic lie. Beware the Antichrist.

Martin Luther:

"We here are of the conviction that the papacy is the seat of the true and real Antichrist, against whose deceit and vileness all is permitted for the salvation of souls. Personally I declare that I owe the Pope no other obedience than that to Antichrist."

"Oh, Christ, my Lord, look down upon us and bring upon us thy day of judgment, and destroy the brood of Satan in Rome. There sits the Man, of whom the Apostle Paul wrote (2 Thess. 2:3,4) that he will oppose and exalt himself above all that is called God,—that Man of Sin, that Son of Perdition. What else is papal power but sin and corruption? It leads souls to destruction under thine own name, 0 Lord! . . . I hope the day of judgment is soon to dawn. Things can and will not become worse than they are at this time. The papal see is practicing iniquity to its heights. He suppresses the Law of God and exalts his commandments above the commandments of God."

"Since, however, there are but few who understand the glory of baptism and the happiness of Christian liberty, or who can understand them for the tyranny of the Pope—I for my part will set free my own mind and deliver my conscience, by declaring aloud to the Pope and to all papists, that, unless they shall throw aside all their laws and traditions, and restore liberty to the churches of Christ, and cause that liberty to be taught, they are guilty of the death of all the souls which are perishing in this wretched bondage, and that the papacy is in truth nothing else than the kingdom of Babylon and of very Antichrist. For who is the man of sin and the son of perdition, but he who by his teaching and his ordinances increases the sin and perdition of souls in the Church; while he yet sits in the Church as if he were God? All these conditions have now for many ages been fulfilled by the papal tyranny. It has extinguished faith, darkened the sacraments, crushed the gospel; while it has enjoined and multiplied without end its own laws, which are not only wicked and sacrilegious, but also most unlearned and barbarous."

"Wherefore, wheresoever the substance of the word and sacraments remaineth, there is the holy church, although Antichrist there reign, who (as the Scripture witnesseth) sitteth not in a stable of fiends, or in a swine-sty, or in a company of infidels, but in the highest and holiest place of all, namely in the temple of God."

 

[Bible2+]

jgr quoted Luther in post #70:

We here are of the conviction that the papacy is the seat of the true and real Antichrist . . .

Note that the future Antichrist will sit on the seat of Satan himself (Revelation 13:2b)

That is, Revelation 13:2b refers to when Satan (the dragon, Revelation 12:9) will give the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") Satan's own earthly throne (seat) and power, so the Antichrist will have power over all nations (Revelation 13:7). This is what Satan offered Jesus Christ, if He would worship Satan (Luke 4:5-7). In the 1st century AD, Satan's earthly throne was in the city of Pergamos (Revelation 2:12-13), also called Pergamum (in what's now western Turkey). Satan's earthly throne could be the Great Altar of Pergamum, also called the Pergamon Altar, which in ancient times was sometimes included as one of the seven wonders of the world.

It may not be just a coincidence that shortly after the Pergamon Altar was moved to Berlin around 1900 AD, both World Wars were started from Berlin, or that "the Nazi-era architect Albert Speer used the Pergamon Altar as the model for the Zeppelintribüne, 1934-37. The Führer's pulpit was in the center of the tribune" (Pergamon Altar - Wikipedia) (quote has been deleted for some reason). When the Antichrist is given power over the whole earth (Revelation 13:7), his throne could be located in the center of the actual Pergamon Altar, which he could move from Berlin to a main temple to himself (and to Lucifer/Satan) in the literal, rebuilt city of Babylon (in Iraq). For a temple to "wickedness" will be built in Shinar (Babylonia) (Zechariah 5:8,11), and the Antichrist is called "that Wicked" (2 Thessalonians 2:8). Also, the dragon has been the god worshipped in the city of Babylon since ancient times.

jgr quoted Luther in post #70:

. . . the papacy is in truth nothing else than the kingdom of Babylon . . .

Was he thinking of Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" (Revelation chapters 17-18)?

If so, note that the corrupt aspects of the papacy (as of all other church leaderships) are included in what Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" represents, but it represents much more than just the corrupt aspects of the papacy. For the papacy just by itself doesn't reign over the kings of the earth (Revelation 17:18). Nor is the papacy the only institution which buys merchandise (Revelation 18:11). Nor is the papacy responsible for the killing of all Christian martyrs (Revelation 18:24). Nor has the papacy just by itself corrupted the entire world (Revelation 18:3). Nor has the papacy been continuously supported by the empires of fallen man throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10). Instead, Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" represents all of fallen man's corrupt political (Revelation 17:18), economic (Revelation 18:11), and religious (Revelation 18:24) systems throughout the earth (Revelation 18:3), and throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10).

The 10 kings of the future Antichrist's empire will destroy with fire what Revelation's "Babylon" represents (Revelation 17:16-17) when they destroy the cities of the nations (Revelation 16:19), probably with nukes (and probably with Fission-Fusion-Fission, "FFF", or "666", nukes, "F" representing the number 6 in English gematria), at the time of the seventh vial (Revelation 16:17,19), which will be the final event (Revelation 16:17) of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before Jesus Christ's Second Coming (Revelation 19:2 to 20:6, Matthew 24:29-31). They could do this under the direction of Lucifer/Satan (Isaiah 14:17,12), who could want to leave only a literal "scorched earth" for Jesus to return to.

Near the very end of the future Tribulation, Lucifer (employing the ancient lies of Gnosticism) could say to the Antichrist and his 10 kings something like: "Our great battle against the evil, tyrant god YHWH is about to begin [Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19], a battle which we will win, and so we will be able to escape YHWH's prison house, this material universe, and return to the wholly-spiritual Pleroma [i.e. Heaven]. So let us now destroy this prison cell, this foul planet, and let us, as it were, burn up all the gewgaws which we have hung upon our cell walls. Let us burn up all our great cities, all our magnificent systems. Let us break all our chains of attachment to this vile, physical realm, that we might more freely ascend back to our rightful place in the Pleroma [cf. Isaiah 14:13-14]".

Of course this will be a lie. For at His Second Coming, Jesus Christ (who is YHWH: John 10:30, Zechariah 14:3-4) will completely defeat the world's armies, arrayed against YHWH (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19-21). And Jesus will have Lucifer bound in the bottomless pit for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-6, Isaiah 14:15), a time period commonly called the Millennium. During that time, Jesus will restore ruined parts of the earth and make them like the Garden of Eden (Ezekiel 36:35, Isaiah 51:3). And after the Millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15), God will create a New Heaven (a new first heaven, a new sky/atmosphere for the earth) and a New Earth (a new surface for the earth) (Revelation 21:1). And then God will descend from the third heaven in the literal city of New Jerusalem to live with saved humanity on the New Earth (Revelation 21:2-4).

 

[jgr]

Note that the future Antichrist will sit on the seat of Satan himself (Revelation 13:2b)

That is, Revelation 13:2b refers to when Satan (the dragon, Revelation 12:9) will give the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") Satan's own earthly throne (seat) and power, so the Antichrist will have power over all nations (Revelation 13:7). This is what Satan offered Jesus Christ, if He would worship Satan (Luke 4:5-7). In the 1st century AD, Satan's earthly throne was in the city of Pergamos (Revelation 2:12-13), also called Pergamum (in what's now western Turkey). Satan's earthly throne could be the Great Altar of Pergamum, also called the Pergamon Altar, which in ancient times was sometimes included as one of the seven wonders of the world.

It may not be just a coincidence that shortly after the Pergamon Altar was moved to Berlin around 1900 AD, both World Wars were started from Berlin, or that "the Nazi-era architect Albert Speer used the Pergamon Altar as the model for the Zeppelintribüne, 1934-37. The Führer's pulpit was in the center of the tribune" (Pergamon Altar - Wikipedia) (quote has been deleted for some reason). When the Antichrist is given power over the whole earth (Revelation 13:7), his throne could be located in the center of the actual Pergamon Altar, which he could move from Berlin to a main temple to himself (and to Lucifer/Satan) in the literal, rebuilt city of Babylon (in Iraq). For a temple to "wickedness" will be built in Shinar (Babylonia) (Zechariah 5:8,11), and the Antichrist is called "that Wicked" (2 Thessalonians 2:8). Also, the dragon has been the god worshipped in the city of Babylon since ancient times.



Was he thinking of Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" (Revelation chapters 17-18)?

If so, note that the corrupt aspects of the papacy (as of all other church leaderships) are included in what Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" represents, but it represents much more than just the corrupt aspects of the papacy. For the papacy just by itself doesn't reign over the kings of the earth (Revelation 17:18). Nor is the papacy the only institution which buys merchandise (Revelation 18:11). Nor is the papacy responsible for the killing of all Christian martyrs (Revelation 18:24). Nor has the papacy just by itself corrupted the entire world (Revelation 18:3). Nor has the papacy been continuously supported by the empires of fallen man throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10). Instead, Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" represents all of fallen man's corrupt political (Revelation 17:18), economic (Revelation 18:11), and religious (Revelation 18:24) systems throughout the earth (Revelation 18:3), and throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10).

The 10 kings of the future Antichrist's empire will destroy with fire what Revelation's "Babylon" represents (Revelation 17:16-17) when they destroy the cities of the nations (Revelation 16:19), probably with nukes (and probably with Fission-Fusion-Fission, "FFF", or "666", nukes, "F" representing the number 6 in English gematria), at the time of the seventh vial (Revelation 16:17,19), which will be the final event (Revelation 16:17) of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before Jesus Christ's Second Coming (Revelation 19:2 to 20:6, Matthew 24:29-31). They could do this under the direction of Lucifer/Satan (Isaiah 14:17,12), who could want to leave only a literal "scorched earth" for Jesus to return to.

Near the very end of the future Tribulation, Lucifer (employing the ancient lies of Gnosticism) could say to the Antichrist and his 10 kings something like: "Our great battle against the evil, tyrant god YHWH is about to begin [Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19], a battle which we will win, and so we will be able to escape YHWH's prison house, this material universe, and return to the wholly-spiritual Pleroma [i.e. Heaven]. So let us now destroy this prison cell, this foul planet, and let us, as it were, burn up all the gewgaws which we have hung upon our cell walls. Let us burn up all our great cities, all our magnificent systems. Let us break all our chains of attachment to this vile, physical realm, that we might more freely ascend back to our rightful place in the Pleroma [cf. Isaiah 14:13-14]".

Of course this will be a lie. For at His Second Coming, Jesus Christ (who is YHWH: John 10:30, Zechariah 14:3-4) will completely defeat the world's armies, arrayed against YHWH (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19-21). And Jesus will have Lucifer bound in the bottomless pit for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-6, Isaiah 14:15), a time period commonly called the Millennium. During that time, Jesus will restore ruined parts of the earth and make them like the Garden of Eden (Ezekiel 36:35, Isaiah 51:3). And after the Millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15), God will create a New Heaven (a new first heaven, a new sky/atmosphere for the earth) and a New Earth (a new surface for the earth) (Revelation 21:1). And then God will descend from the third heaven in the literal city of New Jerusalem to live with saved humanity on the New Earth (Revelation 21:2-4).

We see no futurized speculation by the Reformers. Their declarations were born directly out of their own personal observation and experience, frequently to the death.

John Calvin:

"Daniel and Paul foretold that Antichrist would sit in the temple of God (Dan. 9:27;2 Thess. 2:4); we regard the Roman Pontiff as the leader and standard-bearer of that wicked and abominable kingdom."

"Shall we recognise the Apostolic See where we see nothing but horrible apostacy? Shall he be the vicar of Christ who, by his furious efforts in persecuting the Gospel, plainly declares himself to be Antichrist? Shall he be the successor of Peter who goes about with fire and sword demolishing everything that Peter built? Shall he be the Head of the Church who, after dissevering the Church from Christ, her only true Head, tears and lacerates
her members? Rome, indeed, was once the mother of all the churches, but since she began to be the seat of Antichrist she ceased to be what she was."

"To some we seem slanderous and petulant, when we call the Roman Pontiff Antichrist. But those who think so perceive not that they are bringing a charge of intemperance against Paul, after whom we speak, nay, in whose very words we speak. But lest any one object that Paul’s words have a different meaning, and are wrested by us against the Roman Pontiff, I wil1 briefly show that they can only be understood of the Papacy. Paul says that Antichrist would sit in the temple of God (2 Thess. 2:4). In another passage, the Spirit, portraying him in the person of Antiochus, says that his reign would be with great swelling words of vanity (Dan. 7:25). Hence we infer that his tyranny is more over souls than bodies, a tyranny set up in opposition to the spiritual kingdom of Christ."

 

[Bible2+]

jgr said in post #72:

John Calvin:

"Daniel and Paul foretold that Antichrist would sit in the temple of God (Dan. 9:27;2 Thess. 2:4); we regard the Roman Pontiff as the leader and standard-bearer of that wicked and abominable kingdom."

Regarding Daniel 9:27, note that back in Daniel 9:26 the original Hebrew word (karath: H3772) translated as "cut off" can refer to when a peace treaty/covenant is "made" (Genesis 21:27). The first century AD fulfillment of Daniel 9:26a was at the Crucifixion, when the true Messiah, Jesus, made the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 9:15-17). But a future fulfillment of Daniel 9:26a will be when the Antichrist makes a peace treaty, which will be a fulfillment of the covenant in Daniel 9:27 and the league in Daniel 11:23, with a future, ultra-Orthodox Jewish false "Messiah" in Jerusalem, after he and his followers are militarily defeated by the Antichrist (Daniel 11:22-23). So this future fulfillment of Daniel 9:26a can refer to this false Messiah being "cut off" in the sense of being "covenanted", peace-treatied.

This treaty will allow this false "Messiah" and his followers to keep a third Jewish temple which they will have built on Jerusalem's Temple Mount (after they or great earthquakes have destroyed the Muslim structures there), and to (mistakenly) continue to perform the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices in front of the temple for at least seven years (Daniel 9:27a), so long as they give up the outer court of the temple (Revelation 11:2a) to the Muslims so that the Muslims can rebuild the (by that time destroyed) Al Aqsa Mosque on the southern end of the Temple Mount and resume worship there. After "cutting" this treaty (Daniel 9:26a), the Antichrist could appear before the "many" (Daniel 9:27) nations represented at the U.N. General Assembly, and "confirm" (Daniel 9:27) that for at least seven years he will keep this treaty with the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Jerusalem, using this as purported proof to the world that he is (in his words) "a man of peace, and no Hitler".

In Daniel 9:27, "he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease" refers to when, only some 3.5 years after making the peace treaty of Daniel 9:26a,27a and Daniel 11:23a, the Antichrist will break the treaty, attack the third temple, stop the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices, place the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the temple (Daniel 9:27b, Daniel 11:31, Matthew 24:15), and then sit himself (at least one time) in the temple and proclaim himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). Thus could begin the Antichrist's literal, 3.5-year Luciferian (Satanic) worldwide reign of terror (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9; 2 Thessalonians 2:9).

 

[jgr]

Regarding Daniel 9:27, note that back in Daniel 9:26 the original Hebrew word (karath: H3772) translated as "cut off" can refer to when a peace treaty/covenant is "made" (Genesis 21:27). The first century AD fulfillment of Daniel 9:26a was at the Crucifixion, when the true Messiah, Jesus, made the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 9:15-17). But a future fulfillment of Daniel 9:26a will be when the Antichrist makes a peace treaty, which will be a fulfillment of the covenant in Daniel 9:27 and the league in Daniel 11:23, with a future, ultra-Orthodox Jewish false "Messiah" in Jerusalem, after he and his followers are militarily defeated by the Antichrist (Daniel 11:22-23). So this future fulfillment of Daniel 9:26a can refer to this false Messiah being "cut off" in the sense of being "covenanted", peace-treatied.

Calvin may have been momentarily distracted, as there is no discernible connection between Daniel 9:27 and 2 Thes. 2:4. Possibly he was thinking of something in Daniel 7.

That said, his understanding of 2 Thes. 2:4 is entirely consistent with the events and conditions of his day, and of the preceding centuries leading up to it.

There is no evidence that he considered there to be any future fulfillment. He was observing and experiencing it in real time.