Futurist Only Your end times scenario

Psalm3704 said:

You need to chill out or take a chill pill Keras. All I did was finally agreed with your notion that no one goes to heaven and said "Relax Keras, the way you constantly keep pushing this abomination, I don't think you're going" and you're already having a heart attack.

If you don't want us to talk about this, stop constantly telling everyone here that no one goes to heaven. You keep preaching this as if you life depended upon it. And no I don't hate you Keras, I just think you're lost, like somewhere out in the boonies. There's a difference.



Typical of you, pulling verses out of context to emphasizing only you want others to see. Read everything below and not only verse 26. Yes it does reveal the church in heaven before God judges the world.

Hebrews 12:22-29 NKJV
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

25 See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape who refused Him who spoke on earth, much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who speaks from heaven, 26 whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, “Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also heaven.” 27 Now this, “Yet once more,” indicates the removal of those things that are being shaken, as of things that are made, that the things which cannot be shaken may remain.

28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear. 29 For our God is a consuming fire.

I've already exposed your error on this matter in post #71. Do you need to read it again? Here it is.

No, the four winds implies the cardinal directions: North, South, East, and West.

Biblical
In the Hebrew Bible, there is frequent reference to four cardinal directions.[5] The names of the directions seem to be associated with physical landmarks for the ancient Israelites living in the region of Judea, e.g. East is referred to as kedem, which derives from "edom" ("red"), and may be a reference to the color of the rising dawn, or the red sandstone cliffs of the Land of Edom to the east; North is referred to as saphon, from Mount Zaphon on the northern edge of Syria,South is often negev, from the Negev desert to the south, and West is yam ("sea", meaning the Mediterranean Sea).[6][7] Orientation seems to be to the East, in the direction of the rising sun, with the result that the terms kedem, saphon and negev became generalized with "facing", "left" and "right" side of anything.

The association of cardinal directions with winds is implied at several places in the Old Testament.[8] "Four winds" are referred to in the Bible in several places.[9] Kedem (East) is used frequently as the name of a scorching wind that blows from the east.[10] There are several passages referring to the scattering of people "to all the winds".[11]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_compass_winds​

More information on the Four Winds:

Question: "What does the Bible mean when it refers to the four winds?"

Answer: Wind is frequently used in the Bible as a metaphor for some spiritual truth (e.g., Psalm 78:39 and Jeremiah 22:22). This holds true when the Bible refers to the “four winds.” The phrase “four winds” is used principally to describe the whole of the earth or heaven. The “four winds” encompass all directions or the “four corners” of the earth: north, south, east, and west (Jeremiah 49:36; Matthew 24:31).

http://www.gotquestions.org/four-winds.html

Here it is in the King James. Matthew was referring to EVERYWHERE in heaven in ALL directions: "from one end of heaven to the other."

Matthew 24:31 KJV
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.​

************************************

Keras, wanna know how the church got to heaven, PreTrib and why the elects are gathered from heaven after the tribulation? Of course you do!

1) The church is raptured before the tribulation: Isaiah 26:19 - 27:1, Hebrews 12:22-29.

2) At the Bema Seat, Christians will be rewarded. One of the reward will be a mansion: 2 Corinthians 5:1-2, John 14:2-3, Hebrews 11:15-16.

2 Corinthians 5:1-2 NKJV
1 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven,

Isaiah 26:19-21 NKJV
19 Your dead shall live;
Together with my dead body they shall arise.
Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust;
For your dew is like the dew of herbs,
And the earth shall cast out the dead.
20 Come, my people, enter your chambers,
And shut your doors behind you;
Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,
Until the indignation is past.
21 For behold, the Lord comes out of His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
The earth will also disclose her blood,
And will no more cover her slain.

Isaiah 27:1 NKJV
In that day the Lord with His severe sword, great and strong,
Will punish Leviathan the fleeing serpent,
Leviathan that twisted serpent;
And He will slay the reptile that is in the sea.​

*Isaiah 26:19, the church is raptured.
*Isaiah 26:20, the church waits in our personal mansion in heaven until AFTER the tribulation: Until the indignation is past. The church never leaves heaven until AFTER the tribulation!

*Isaiah 26:21, Christ descends to earth and judges the world.

*Isaiah 27:1, Christ kills the beast.

3) Christ comes to earth with only His angels: Matthew 25:31, to defeat the a/c, judge the world: Matthew 13:40-42, and end the war: Matthew 24:22 before everyone nukes each other's brains out.

Christ does "NOT" come to fight the a/c and judge the world "with" the church. This is a "HUGE HUGE" error someone made and now has many people believing it. Probably someone writing bible study guides or making videos on YouTube giving their view?


4) After the indignation (after the tribulation), Christ (while on earth) sends His angels up to heaven to gather His elects (of the church) still waiting in heaven: Matthew 24:29-31.

Jesus is already on earth. He's not gonna go back up to heaven to gather His elects.

Matthew 24:29-31 NKJV
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.​

This is why you must have a gathering at the end of the tribulation. If there is no gathering, the elects (church) waiting in heaven will never be able to descend down to earth and reign with Christ the next 1000 years.

The gathering is NOT the rapture! The rapture happens before the tribulation, the gathering happens after the tribulation.

*****************************************

Keras, answer this question.

If Christ comes to earth to rapture the church after the tribulation mentioned in Matthew 24:29-31? Who causes the tribulation to end? Who defeats the a/c and destroys all enemies? Who stops the war and prevent people from annihilating each other with nukes?

"Who causes the tribulation to end?"

The fact is, Christ does not descend from heaven at Matthew 24:29-31.

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Well, this is a theory. I just don't believe the last half of it - that the church does not return with Jesus and the angels.

There is still ANOTHER gathering: for the sheep and goat judgment.

Psalm3704 said:

That's correct. Many will successfully flee Jerusalem to safety before the transgression happens.



It's ALL in the tribulation. Every scripture I posted is about the Jerusalem and Israel during the tribulation. The scripture you quoted: Isaiah 29:5-8 never happened in 70 AD. Nobody vanished (poof!) or was blown away like straws in 70 AD, least I've never found any records of it. It's in figurative language, wanna know what it means?

Isaiah 29:5-8 GNT
5 Jerusalem, all the foreigners who attack you will be blown away like dust, and their terrifying armies will fly away like straw. Suddenly and unexpectedly 6 the Lord Almighty will rescue you with violent thunderstorms and earthquakes. He will send windstorms and raging fire; 7 then all the armies of the nations attacking the city of God's altar, all their weapons and equipment—everything—will vanish like a dream, like something imagined in the night. 8 All the nations that assemble to attack Jerusalem will be like a starving person who dreams he is eating and wakes up hungry, or like someone dying of thirst who dreams he is drinking and wakes with a dry throat.​

Do you want an in-depth explanation of all the scriptures I've listed and reveal how they all show Jerusalem being nuked with a nuclear bomb during the AoD?

You can't see it just by reading Matthew 24 along. It took me many many different scriptures, old and new testament, to put a big puzzle together and finally realized this was what God was talking about. The evidence is overwhelming when they're all understood and combined together.

Your choice if you want the explanation. Might get lengthy tho.

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I have long believed that Jerusalem will get burned with fire, but not nuked.

Rev 17
16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the harlot, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth. [Jerusalem]

Please keep in mind that there will be millions of troops from nations of the world surrounding Jerusalem. Not much chance of that if Jerusalem was nuked.

Rev 18
4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

At this point there are still Jews alive in Jerusalem.

9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,

10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

No, I don't think a nuke. Perhaps another city in Israel is nuked, but not Jerusalem.

Psalm3704 said:

Yes i know. It's why i listed many other scriptures. But I don't expect you to understand them all to put the puzzle together. I just wrote this message to Lamad. Do you want an in-depth explanation too?

Do you want an in-depth explanation of all the scriptures I've listed and reveal how they all show Jerusalem being nuked with a nuclear bomb during the AoD?

You can't see it just by reading Matthew 24 along. It took me many many different scriptures, old and new testament, to put a big puzzle together and finally realized this was what God was talking about. The evidence is overwhelming when they're all understood and combined together.

Your choice if you want the explanation. Might get lengthy tho.​

An emphatic "no it is not" Doug. It's about the tribulation. Here's just the first two scriptures I listed in post #72.

Isaiah 64:9-12 NKJV
9 Do not be furious, O Lord,
Nor remember iniquity forever;
Indeed, please look—we all are Your people!
10 Your holy cities are a wilderness,
Zion is a wilderness,
Jerusalem a desolation.
11 Our holy and beautiful temple,
Where our fathers praised You,
Is burned up with fire;
And all our pleasant things are laid waste.
12 Will You restrain Yourself because of these things, O Lord?
Will You hold Your peace, and afflict us very severely?

Jeremiah 26:18 NKJV
“Micah of Moresheth prophesied in the days of Hezekiah king of Judah, and spoke to all the people of Judah, saying, ‘Thus says the Lord of hosts:

“Zion shall be plowed like a field,
Jerusalem shall become heaps of ruins,
And the mountain of the temple
Like the bare hills of the forest.”’​

Isaiah 64:10 said the cities, Zion and Jerusalem are a wilderness. Other translation's view. This didn't happen to Israel in the past.

Isaiah 64:10 (NIV) Your sacred cities have become a desert; even Zion is a desert, Jerusalem a desolation.

Isaiah 64:10 (GW) Your holy cities have become a desert. Zion has become a desert. Jerusalem is a wasteland.

Isaiah 64:10 (NCV) Your holy cities are empty like the desert. Jerusalem is like a desert; it is destroyed.

Isaiah 64:10 (NIRV) Your sacred cities have become a desert. Even Zion is a desert. Jerusalem is a dry and empty place.

In Jeremiah 26:18, the topography of Jerusalem will be change. This never happened in Jerusalem in the past and will take something devastating to alter the landscape of the city. This can only happen in the tribulation. Plus if you study Jeremiah 25-31, it's all about the final years before the tribulation leading up to the end of the tribulation.



Jerusalem is still there but it's in ruins. Read verses 6-7, the city is in utter darkness, absolutely no light. Jerusalem is in ruins with no power or electricity, covered in a blanket of dark smoke from the fire.

Zechariah 14:6-7 NKJV
6 It shall come to pass in that day
That there will be no light;
The lights will diminish.
7 It shall be one day
Which is known to the Lord—
Neither day nor night.
But at evening time it shall happen
That it will be light.​

C'mon Douggg. This sounds like something Keras would say.
Ha ha!


It's the Israelites who will be trampled down. The host is the Israelites. There will be a war there when the a/c and his army invades Jerusalem, the Israelites will fight back but be defeated. Many Israelites in Jerusalem have already scattered. Many outside Jerusalem in Judea will scatter too when they see the AoD set up in the holy place: Matthew 24:15-22. The a/c controls the city, sets up the AoD, dunno how manys later but then they're get nuked: Zechariah 14:12. What's left of the city stays under their control the entire second half of the tribulation until Christ returns to defeat the a/c and his army.

Daniel 8:13 (NKJV) Then I heard a holy one speaking; and another holy one said to that certain one who was speaking, "How long will the vision be, concerning the daily sacrifices and the transgression of desolation, the giving of both the sanctuary and the host to be trampled under foot?"

Daniel 8:13 (CEB) I then heard a certain holy one speaking. A second holy one said to the first one: "How long will this vision last—the one concerning the daily sacrifice, the desolating rebellion, and the handing over of the sanctuary and its forces to be trampled?"

Daniel 8:13 (CJB) Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to the speaker, "How long will the events of the vision last, this vision concerning the regular offering and the transgression which is so appalling, that allows the sanctuary and the army to be trampled underfoot?"

Daniel 8:13 (GW) Then I heard a holy one speaking. Another holy one said to the one who was speaking, "How long will the things in this vision--the daily burnt offering, the destructive rebellion, the surrender of the holy place, and the trampling of the army--take place?"

NOT!


That's what I was telling you. The 3rd/next Temple (Zerubbabel) and Ezekiel's Temple/4th Temple are not the same. Zerubbabel's Temple will be built where the temple mount is on Mount Moriah.

The 4th and final temple: Ezekiel's will be built on Mount Zion. Much much much bigger and 10 times better than any past temples.

If Zerubbabel's temple does not get destroy in the tribulation, why would there be a need to build Ezekiel's temple? That would put two temples in Jerusalem. Logically Zerubbabel's temple has to be destroy for anyone to build a new temple.

Go back to Jeremiah 26:18. The whole topography of Jerusalem will be change. Yes, you're probably right, maybe a hole on the ground 1/2 mile in diameters? Maybe this might be where the living water flows from? /shrugs?
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Sorry, but Daniel 8 is NOT ABOUT the tribulation in our future: that was about Antiochus. And you were doing so well....up to then.

Psalm3704 said:

You need to chill out or take a chill pill Keras. All I did was finally agreed with your notion that no one goes to heaven and said "Relax Keras, the way you constantly keep pushing this abomination, I don't think you're going" and you're already having a heart attack.

If you don't want us to talk about this, stop constantly telling everyone here that no one goes to heaven. You keep preaching this as if you life depended upon it. And no I don't hate you Keras, I just think you're lost, like somewhere out in the boonies. There's a difference.



Typical of you, pulling verses out of context to emphasizing only you want others to see. Read everything below and not only verse 26. Yes it does reveal the church in heaven before God judges the world.

Hebrews 12:22-29 NKJV
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

25 See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape who refused Him who spoke on earth, much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who speaks from heaven, 26 whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, “Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also heaven.” 27 Now this, “Yet once more,” indicates the removal of those things that are being shaken, as of things that are made, that the things which cannot be shaken may remain.

28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear. 29 For our God is a consuming fire.



I've already exposed your error on this matter in post #71. Do you need to read it again? Here it is.

No, the four winds implies the cardinal directions: North, South, East, and West.

Biblical
In the Hebrew Bible, there is frequent reference to four cardinal directions.[5] The names of the directions seem to be associated with physical landmarks for the ancient Israelites living in the region of Judea, e.g. East is referred to as kedem, which derives from "edom" ("red"), and may be a reference to the color of the rising dawn, or the red sandstone cliffs of the Land of Edom to the east; North is referred to as saphon, from Mount Zaphon on the northern edge of Syria,South is often negev, from the Negev desert to the south, and West is yam ("sea", meaning the Mediterranean Sea).[6][7] Orientation seems to be to the East, in the direction of the rising sun, with the result that the terms kedem, saphon and negev became generalized with "facing", "left" and "right" side of anything.

The association of cardinal directions with winds is implied at several places in the Old Testament.[8] "Four winds" are referred to in the Bible in several places.[9] Kedem (East) is used frequently as the name of a scorching wind that blows from the east.[10] There are several passages referring to the scattering of people "to all the winds".[11]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_compass_winds​

More information on the Four Winds:

Question: "What does the Bible mean when it refers to the four winds?"

Answer: Wind is frequently used in the Bible as a metaphor for some spiritual truth (e.g., Psalm 78:39 and Jeremiah 22:22). This holds true when the Bible refers to the “four winds.” The phrase “four winds” is used principally to describe the whole of the earth or heaven. The “four winds” encompass all directions or the “four corners” of the earth: north, south, east, and west (Jeremiah 49:36; Matthew 24:31).

http://www.gotquestions.org/four-winds.html

Here it is in the King James. Matthew was referring to EVERYWHERE in heaven in ALL directions: "from one end of heaven to the other."

Matthew 24:31 KJV
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.​

************************************

Keras, wanna know how the church got to heaven, PreTrib and why the elects are gathered from heaven after the tribulation? Of course you do!

1) The church is raptured before the tribulation: Isaiah 26:19 - 27:1, Hebrews 12:22-29.

2) At the Bema Seat, Christians will be rewarded. One of the reward will be a mansion: 2 Corinthians 5:1-2, John 14:2-3, Hebrews 11:15-16.

2 Corinthians 5:1-2 NKJV
1 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven,

Isaiah 26:19-21 NKJV
19 Your dead shall live;
Together with my dead body they shall arise.
Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust;
For your dew is like the dew of herbs,
And the earth shall cast out the dead.
20 Come, my people, enter your chambers,
And shut your doors behind you;
Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,
Until the indignation is past.
21 For behold, the Lord comes out of His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
The earth will also disclose her blood,
And will no more cover her slain.

Isaiah 27:1 NKJV
In that day the Lord with His severe sword, great and strong,
Will punish Leviathan the fleeing serpent,
Leviathan that twisted serpent;
And He will slay the reptile that is in the sea.​

*Isaiah 26:19, the church is raptured.
*Isaiah 26:20, the church waits in our personal mansion in heaven until AFTER the tribulation: Until the indignation is past. The church never leaves heaven until AFTER the tribulation!

*Isaiah 26:21, Christ descends to earth and judges the world.

*Isaiah 27:1, Christ kills the beast.

3) Christ comes to earth with only His angels: Matthew 25:31, to defeat the a/c, judge the world: Matthew 13:40-42, and end the war: Matthew 24:22 before everyone nukes each other's brains out.

Christ does "NOT" come to fight the a/c and judge the world "with" the church. This is a "HUGE HUGE" error someone made and now has many people believing it. Probably someone writing bible study guides or making videos on YouTube giving their view?


4) After the indignation (after the tribulation), Christ (while on earth) sends His angels up to heaven to gather His elects (of the church) still waiting in heaven: Matthew 24:29-31.

Jesus is already on earth. He's not gonna go back up to heaven to gather His elects.

Matthew 24:29-31 NKJV
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.​

This is why you must have a gathering at the end of the tribulation. If there is no gathering, the elects (church) waiting in heaven will never be able to descend down to earth and reign with Christ the next 1000 years.

The gathering is NOT the rapture! The rapture happens before the tribulation, the gathering happens after the tribulation.

*****************************************

Keras, answer this question.

If Christ comes to earth to rapture the church after the tribulation mentioned in Matthew 24:29-31? Who causes the tribulation to end? Who defeats the a/c and destroys all enemies? Who stops the war and prevent people from annihilating each other with nukes?

"Who causes the tribulation to end?"

The fact is, Christ does not descend from heaven at Matthew 24:29-31. There's no post tribulation rapture in Matthew 24:29-31 because there's no post trib without Christ first stopping the war.









.







.

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There are so many flaws in your last few posts I honestly don't know where to start; however after realizing you're a pre trip rapture believer I can't find it in me to bother wasting the time... No matter how many logical facts are bought to your attention with scriptures to back them up you don't comprehend. A few of your statements don't even make any sense or have any direct relation to the scriptures you quote. I honestly don't even understand how you believe the crap you conjure up in your own mind... God bless you Keras, iamlamad and Douggg... I don't think you can save this guy he is too ignorant.

JaeMelo said:

There are so many flaws in your last few posts I honestly don't know where to start; however after realizing you're a pre trip rapture believer I can't find it in me to bother wasting the time... No matter how many logical facts are bought to your attention with scriptures to back them up you don't comprehend. A few of your statements don't even make any sense or have any direct relation to the scriptures you quote. I honestly don't even understand how you believe the crap you conjure up in your own mind... God bless you Keras, iamlamad and Douggg... I don't think you can save this guy he is too ignorant.

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I think the day will come when the Posttribbers will realize their theory was only conjured up in their minds. Ask a posttribber WHY they believe in posttrib, and you will hear a MASTERPIECE, no less of one that Michael Angelo or Picasso might have produced - but it will be a masterpiece of deception. God is pretrib.

Don't give up though! Show us what you've got!

iamlamad said:

I think the day will come when the Posttribbers will realize their theory was only conjured up in their minds. Ask a posttribber WHY they believe in posttrib, and you will hear a MASTERPIECE, no less of one that Michael Angelo or Picasso might have produced - but it will be a masterpiece of deception. God is pretrib.

Don't give up though! Show us what you've got!

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I thought I was a mid tribber but according to you I'm a post lol. I guess I'm wrong since you have the authority to dictate my beliefs; perhaps you should provide that answer to your own argument. Be sure to show us scriptures so as to make your argument against your own assumptions convincing.

Because I do have a life outside of the forums, I can't keep up with this rate of posting!
Anyway, no matter how well we put the case for what we believe, it has no effect on the beliefs of others. I have been posting the truth as I see it from the Bible, for about 5 years now and although what I have said may have enlightened some, the regular posters are simply not open to any change and just keep promoting their own agenda.
I conclude that this situation is part of God's plan and as Daniel said: only a few of the wise leaders will understand the end times.
This is how we are now:
Deuteronomy 29:4 But to this day, the Lord has not given you a mind to understand, or eyes to see, or ears to hear.
Isaiah 56:10 All Israel’s watchmen are blind, perceiving nothing, they are like dumb dogs that cannot bark.
Jeremiah 6:10 To whom shall I speak? To whom give warning, who will hear me? The peoples ears are blocked, they are incapable of listening, they treat the Lord’s Word as a reproach.
Psalms 74:9 We cannot see any sign, we have no prophets now.
Isaiah 29:10-14 For you the whole vision is nothing but words in a sealed book.
Isaiah 6:9b-10 However hard you look and listen, you will never perceive.
Isaiah 48:8 You don’t understand, because your ears were stopped long ago.
Psalms 94:5 Understand, O dullest of people; when will you be wise?

Only after the Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath:
Isaiah 43:8 Bring forth this people, a people whose eyes are blind, whose ears are deaf.
Isaiah 35:4-5 Be strong, fear not; the Lord comes to save you, with His vengeance and retribution. THEN the eyes of the blind will be opened and the ears of the deaf unstopped.
Isaiah 42:18-20 You that are deaf; hear now, you that are blind; look and see! Who is so deaf and blind as My servant, the messenger that I send, the one who has My trust?
Isaiah 29:18 On that Day, the deaf will hear and the blind will see.
Isaiah 29:24 Then the confused will gain understanding and the obstinate will take instruction.
Isaiah 32:3-4 Then those who see and hear will understand clearly, the impetuous mind will know and the stammering tongue will speak fluently and plainly.
We will see that Day, be sure of it; going to be very interesting!

iamlamad said:

There is still ANOTHER gathering: for the sheep and goat judgment.

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Lamad, if you're referring to Matthew 25:32, I use to think that too. I hope you're not reading into that literally because that was my error before. I thought after the tribulation, Christ would do another judgement upon the world also. I was looking at it from a chronological order since Matthew 25 comes after Matthew 24. But Matthew 25 is all about the 7 years of the tribulation from the time of the rapture with the 10 virgins to the Bema Seat in heaven to Christ's return to earth and judge the the world: sheeps and goats. It's all in the tribulation, not after.

The old testament reveals what happens immediately after the tribulation. There's no second judgement immediately after the tribulation for sheeps and goats. Christ does all of it during the tribulation. The goats are destroy in the second half of the tribulation.

The gathering at the end is for all His elects from heaven and earth, no goats in there.

iamlamad said:

I have long believed that Jerusalem will get burned with fire, but not nuked.

Rev 17
16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the harlot, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth. [Jerusalem]

Please keep in mind that there will be millions of troops from nations of the world surrounding Jerusalem. Not much chance of that if Jerusalem was nuked.

Rev 18
4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

At this point there are still Jews alive in Jerusalem.

9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,

10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

No, I don't think a nuke. Perhaps another city in Israel is nuked, but not Jerusalem.

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Lamad, that's prophecy about Mystery Babylon. You have to be absolutely certain Mystery Babylon is Jerusalem, especially when many old testaments tells a different story about the outcome of Jerusalem compared with Rev 17-18.

iamlamad said:

I have long believed that Jerusalem will get burned with fire, but not nuked.

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You're correct, Jerusalem will get burn, as well as Mystery Babylon. But did you know the effects of a nuclear bomb creates a massive firestorm too? Everything between somewhere around 6-15 miles (somewhere around those range) radius of the blast, everything flammable will instantly engulf in flames resulting in a huge firestorm.

iamlamad said:

Please keep in mind that there will be millions of troops from nations of the world surrounding Jerusalem. Not much chance of that if Jerusalem was nuked.

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Yes exactly! God will gather his enemies to attack Jerusalem at the middle of the tribulation: the Ezekiel 38 war, and the 6th trumpet war of 200 million coalision army of Revelation 9:13-21. Yes, they're the same war and it will happen in the middle of the tribulation. Many but not all enemies will be kill there like a pool of blood covering the city: Isaiah 29:2, Zechariah 14:12.

It's kinda brilliant if you think about it. It'll end the war much faster. Guess how God will gather them to Jerusalem? Yes it's in the bible. Jerusalem will have a lot in common with Mystery Babylon. It'll be the same bait God will use to draw them to attack Mystery Babylon.

It's an old phrase too.

Yeah I know, you're probably gonna say it's nonsense. But it's in the bible, old testament. Wanna see it?











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Douggg said:

Anitochus IV did not destroy the temple when he placed the image of Zeus in the temple..... the first abomination of desolation. When Jesus said in Matthew 23 your house is left desolate, the Jews were removed from the land. The nation left desolate. He also added that the temple, a massive complex of buildings and walls would be destroyed.

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Doug, can we drop the Antiochus issue? I never mentioned anything about him.

Yes He said that in Matthew 23 and also in Luke 19:41-44. This was His prophecy of the temple for 70 AD. (Fulfilled).

His prophecy in the Olivet Discourse of the sanctuary and the massive buildings hasn't been fulfilled yet: Matthew 24:1-2, Mark 13:1-2, Luke 21:5-6. Here He was referring to everything and not just the sanctuary. You won't be able to see it just by reading the discourses alone. It takes knowing other scriptures and putting the puzzle together.

Douggg said:

There is not that same sort of future prophesy by Jesus of the temple which the Antichrist will cause to be desolate.

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He didn't specifically gave the prophecies, that's done already in the old testament. But He did imply it in the discourse when He said not one stone will be left on top of another: Matthew 24:1-2, Mark 13:1-2, Luke 21:5-6. You have to understand other prophecies about Jerusalem and the temple in the old testament to see the connect.

All those stones are massive and will take many workers weeks or months to separate them. But one nuclear bomb will easily do the work.

Douggg said:

The 70th week temple is not going to be that big of a structure to be removed by Jesus when he returns. It is not necessary for it to be destroyed aforehand in a destruction of Jerusalem that you are interpreting.

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The temple mount is currently sitting on Mount Moriah. The next temple in the tribulation will be built on the temple mount.

If the next temple is left partially standing in Jerusalem, why would Ezekiel's temple be built on Mount Zion? Wouldn't it be logically to rebuild on top of an existing temple?

Douggg said:

Those passages you are quoting have already been fulfilled. Hadrian had the city plowed. In Zechariah 14 God is going to fight against those nations that come up against Jerusalem. God is not hardly going to lose a battle He fights on the side of Jerusalem. Back in the days of the Assyrian and Babylonian captives, God did not fight against those enemies of Israel, so the northern and southern kingdoms were defeated, their cities destroyed. Coming out of the Babylonian captivity, Jerusalem had to be rebuilt as well as the temple.

Jesus is returning to rescue the Jews, not destroy them.

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God never loses a battle. He knows what He's doing. I'm sure we both agree.

Jesus is coming to rescue those Jews that accept Him. Not all of Israelites will accept Christ and at least 2/3 will perish during the 2nd half. But yes He is coming to save those Jews who will be waiting for His return - "Bless is He that comes in the name of the Lord."

















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JaeMelo said:

There are so many flaws in your last few posts I honestly don't know where to start; however after realizing you're a pre trip rapture believer I can't find it in me to bother wasting the time... No matter how many logical facts are bought to your attention with scriptures to back them up you don't comprehend. A few of your statements don't even make any sense or have any direct relation to the scriptures you quote. I honestly don't even understand how you believe the crap you conjure up in your own mind... God bless you Keras, iamlamad and Douggg... I don't think you can save this guy he is too ignorant.

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O joy, a 25 year old smarta$$ kid shows up out of nowhere with his mouth wide open. Here's an advise.....kiddo! Not exactly a good idea to call someone out like this to someone you've never spoken with before. You also might want to do a better job disguising your true intentions next time.

As far as coming here having a fit, you're not fooling anyone. People just don't nosedive face-first off a cliff in frustration over opinions made to another person unless you already know that person. People just don't get ruffled up, bent all out of shape like a pretzel over a comment made to someone else, especially when you don't even hold the same end time view as Keras.

Now the comment I made to Keras in post#78 was a reply back to Keras, not to you. Guess what? He's 3 times older than you and is holding his own 10 times better than you. You could learn something from him.

As far as knowledge of the end time views, the reason why you don't comprehend what I've written is because "how many years have you put into study prophecy..........kiddo?" It's obvious, everything you're reading here is just going right over your head. One person's ignorance does not equate to another man's knowledge. The fact is, your end time view of the rapture differs from us and you felt threaten when I revealed how the elects ended up in heaven at the end of the tribulation. Your credibility is on the line, not mines.

Take lamad's advise. Show us what you know. Impress us.












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Psalm3704 said:

O joy, a 25 year old smarta$$ kid shows up out of nowhere with his mouth wide open. Here's an advise.....kiddo! Not exactly a good idea to call someone out like this to someone you've never spoken with before. You also might want to do a better job disguising your true intentions next time.

As far as coming here having a fit, you're not fooling anyone. People just don't nosedive face-first off a cliff in frustration over opinions made to another person unless you already know that person. People just don't get ruffled up, bent all out of shape like a pretzel over a comment made to someone else, especially when you don't even hold the same end time view as Keras.

Now the comment I made to Keras in post#78 was a reply back to Keras, not to you. Guess what? He's 3 times older than you and is holding his own 10 times better than you. You could learn something from him.

As far as knowledge of the end time views, the reason why you don't comprehend what I've written is because "how many years have you put into study prophecy..........kiddo?" It's obvious, everything you're reading here is just going right over your head. One person's ignorance does not equate to another man's knowledge. The fact is, your end time view of the rapture differs from us and you felt threaten when I revealed how the elects ended up in heaven at the end of the tribulation. Your credibility is on the line, not mines.

Take lamad's advise. Show us what you know. Impress us.












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Are you ok my friend?! This is christianforums not a "I am always mad" dick measuring contest. Be happy. We must learn to love each other more. Id love to hear more of your wisdom and are willing to learn from you mam. Proceed on as if I'm not here if that helps you out my friend.

Good Day

I think we're toast pretty soon. I don't believe Vladimir Putin is our "Ally in the War on Terror". I think he's positioned himself to seize Israel's "Leviathan Natural Gas Fields" in the Mediterranean in order to stop Israel from exporting natural gas through a pipe line to Turkey, thereby breaking Russia's stranglehold and monopoly of natural gas on Western Europe. All Putin has to do is allow Hezbollah to start shooting rockets into Israel again from Syrian territory, and it's on. Israel is going to have to fly into Syria and go head to head with Russia, which is exactly what Putin wants. We're only about three moves away from checkmate (Thermo Nuclear War), and he's got the first move.

The Scripture says the antichrist called the "Abomination of Desolation" will invade Israel by attacking Judea, (Matt. 24:15-16). In ancient times the WEST BANK was called JUDEA ! I don't think it's any coincidence Vladimir Putin is the first Russian president to visit the West Bank, (2012-2014). I think the Apocalypse is coming a lot quicker than any of you imagine it is. WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE ! Forget all these Jewish myths about Pre-Trib Middle East Peace Plans and Third Jewish Temples. That's all based on unbiblical assumptions and misinterpretations of Scripture. Post one of those doctrines here and i'll prove it's made of smoke and tissue. In other words, they are MYTHS !.. Just about everything called "popular mainstream eschatology" is a myth. Why is anyone surprised it's that way ?! Isn't that how the apostles said it would be, (2 Timothy 4:3) ?! There's so much NOISE out there drowning everything else out, the End is going to arrive, and NOBODY is going to see it coming. That's exactly what the Bible says is going to happen, (Rev. 16:15).

Devouring fire, from the Lord
It should be obvious to everyone on earth with access to news information that some kind of cataclysmic event will probably occur in the near future. The lessons of history, the population explosion, natural disasters and the preparedness of nations for war are all dire warning signs for us. But we who study the Bible can, and should know what the prophets tell us about the end of this age. Amos 3:7
The Book of Revelation tells us about a sequence of terrible events called the Seal, Trumpet and Bowl judgements and we note that the Sixth Seal is referred to as ‘the great Day of the Lord’s wrath’. Then the Seventh Seal is a time gap in heaven of ‘about a ½ hour’. This calculates to approximately 16/17 years of earth time, using the one day in heaven = 1000 years on earth principal. This will allow for all that must happen until the glorious Return of Jesus.

Therefore, the Sixth Seal is the event that the Lord intends to use in order to punish the nations, who at present conspire to annihilate Israel. Their attack and its consequences are prophesied in Psalm 83 and Micah 4:11-12. Prophecies that parallel the Sixth Seal are; Isaiah 34:4 ‘the sky rolled up like a scroll’, Isaiah 2:21 ‘hide in caves, etc’, Zeph.1:14 ‘The Day of the Lords wrath, a Day of doom and disaster’, then in Amos 1 – it says how the Lord will send fire to destroy the Ishmaelite peoples [those mentioned in Psalm 83] for all their crimes. There are over 70 verses in the Bible that speak of a forthcoming fire judgement and most of them state clearly that it is the Lord Himself who instigates this fire. Joel 1:15 & 19 ‘The Day of the Lord comes, a mighty destruction from the Almighty and fire has consumed the trees and pastures.
Habakkuk 3:12 Furiously, You traverse the earth, in anger, You trample on the nations.
Isa. 66:15-16 The Lord will judge with fire....He will test all mankind, many will be slain.

How He will do this, is told to us in Isaiah 30:26-28 where it is undeniably written about ‘a devouring fire, from the Lord Himself’, that is caused by ‘the sun shining seven times stronger’. This can only be a coronal mass ejection; something that the earth has experienced in the past and is expected to happen again, that can have worldwide devastating consequences - a seemingly natural occurrence that will maintain the hidden-ness of the Lord. With this scenario in mind, many other prophecies make sense, passages like Ezekiel 20:47-48, about a fire in the Land, kindled by the Lord, and 2 Peter 3:7 & 10, where Peter says: ‘The Day of the Lord will come like a thief, the Day the heavens disappear and flames bring all the earth to judgement’. Psalm 18:7-15


The four best passages that describe the Return of Jesus in His glory, to commence His Millennial reign and visible to all and NOT as a thief and unexpectedly, are; Zechariah 14:3-15, Matthew 24:27-30, Matthew 25:31-46, Revelation 19:11-19. We are told that on that Day; ‘the Great Day of the Sovereign Lord’, Rev. 16:14, there will be an earthquake only in Jerusalem and that Jesus will destroy the attacking army of the Anti- Christ by the sword of His Word. He then gathers His elect from around the earth and commences His Millennium reign. These four descriptions do not mention a worldwide fire judgement and as the world will have just experienced the Great Tribulation, for that judgement to occur at the same time as the Return, seems unnecessary and illogical.

JaeMelo said:

Are you ok my friend?! This is christianforums not a "I am always mad" dick measuring contest. Be happy. We must learn to love each other more. Id love to hear more of your wisdom and are willing to learn from you mam. Proceed on as if I'm not here if that helps you out my friend.

Good Day

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I'm fine, never better.

If you wanna learn about prophecy, first, don't be presumptuous. Second, don't assume what doesn't make sense is always nonsense. Many times, people later learn what sounded foolish to them at first later becomes common knowledge when they research the topic and study the materials they find coming to a better understanding of it.

Case and point. Example below.

You explain to an atheist who's never heard of the rapture, never read the bible and knows nothing about Jesus. You tell him someday millions of dead people will resurrect from the grave and ascend into the sky. Millions of people alive will also ascend into the sky where they all meet Jesus in the air. He'll think you just told him a bunch of nonsense. But regardless of what he thinks, you know it to be true. The point is, what sounds foolish to one man, is knowledge to another. Remember Christopher Columbus when he told people the world was round and what everyone thought about his claim? He had knowledge that everyone else didn't. Always be open to new ideas. But always double and triple check the bible for validity. Accept only what's consistent with the bible.

A wise man can never learn anything new if he think he already knows everything. Does this make sense? There's a lot God wants to teach each of us.

Third, get to know the people in this forum; who they are and what they know. Some people know more about prophecy than others. Everyone is unique. Learn their views. Cross reference it with the bible for accuracy. Learn from people like Keras, Douggg and Lamad. They're more knowledgeable compared to most students of bible prophecy and each has their own qualities.

Take Lamad for instance. He has a tremendous love for the rapture, and wants to know as much as he can about it. So much so that God has blessed him helping him to understand the rapture better than 99% of Christians alive. He can see many scriptures revealing the rapture that others cannot. He's just that passionate about it and God blessed him to understand it that his faith on the rapture never wavers no matter what doubters throw at him. He has a lot of potential and if he can apply this passion to learn other areas of prophecy.....oh my goodness!!!

Now Douggg, he has an amazing quality for the truth. Of all the people I've met here, no one else exemplify a person that conforms his thinking to the bible better than Douggg. While some people change the bible to conform to their own thinking, Douggg is after the truth and aligns his thinking with the bible. In addition, he's very rational and shows a lot of patience dealing with people. Something that I too can learn from observing him.

And finally Keras. He's the most well rounded scholar here. He knows the old testament well. While most people here understands prophecies in the new testament very well, they don't realized how little they know overall. And because of this, many times they're in error because they read something in the new testament, they come to a conclusion of what the prophecy means based on self reasoning without double checking a reliable secondary source as confirmation: that being the old testament.

A huge majority of prophecies on the end times is found in the old testament. In the new testament, there's only about 12 pages of prophecies: the discourse from Matthew, Mark and Luke, 3 pages from Paul on 1st & 2nd Thessalonians and 6 pages from John from the 1st Seal in Rev 6 to Satan's defeat in Rev 20. While in the old testament from the prophetic books of Isaiah to Malachi plus some additional prophecies from Psalm, they make up to 1/4 of the entire bible dedicated to the study of surrounding events involving the end times and the return of Christ. 1% on the first coming, 99% on the second coming.

If you learn something new about prophecy in the new testament, always confirm for validity. Your answer can easily be found in the bible, the old testament. Don't use self reasoning as confirmation. The answer is in the old testament. This is why Keras knows prophecy better than most people here. He just knows where to look.

Get to know the people here first. First impression is a good start.









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My "end times scenario" is a follows:

*Everything we're seeing today is under the control of the Lord Jesus! He has control, and we who have faith in Him don't need to be looking at today's events as something prophesied specifically in scripture. We only need realize Jesus reigns from the right hand of the Father, and HE'S GOT IT!

*We are currently in the "Gog and Magog" war right now...it is a spiritual battle! Gog and Magog is figurative for all who don't believe. This is the warfare we are currently in now. We who are God's people are surrounded by the unbelieving world.

*Antichrist is not only an individual...but any entity that is against Christ. Just as John told us there were MANY antichrist in 1 John 4, there are, has been, and will be many antichrists.

*Jesus is going to return and at that time all will be resurrected, some to eternal life, and some to eternal damnation. This includes the rapture of all living believers at that time...who will not be caught up before the dead in Christ are raised. These are all one event.

That's where I am with it. Even so Lord Jesus, come!

Thank you, Psalm3704, I feel blessed by you!

Jeremiah 33:1-3 The Word of the Lord came to Jeremiah while he was imprisoned. The Lord says: If you call to Me, I will answer and tell you of great and mysterious things that you are unaware of.
Jeremiah prophesied to the House of Judah, some years after the House of Israel was taken into exile by the Assyrians. He foretold how things would be after the Babylonian conquest of Judah, but this was not completely fulfilled then or after the Roman conquest of Judah in 70AD:

Jeremiah 33:4-5 & 10 The houses of this city and the great buildings of Judah which are now destroyed by the sword, will be filled with dead bodies. They are those slain by the Lord Himself, because He has turned away from them. The Lord says: See this Land, now in ruins and devoid of people and animals. Jeremiah 9:10-11

Ezekiel 21:14...swing the great sword of slaughter three times, whirling about Judah. As Ezekiel says: there will be a triple fulfilment of the punishment of Judah. Two have happened, Babylon and Rome, the next is ‘by the Lord Himself’, by the means of a coronal mass ejection, a sunstrike. This event is prophesied and graphically described over 100 times in the Bible, as ‘the terrible Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath’. The entire Middle East will become ‘ruined and devoid of people and animals’. This was not the case with the two previous punishments. Ezekiel 6:14, Zephaniah 1:18, Zechariah 3:9b

But then, soon after the Lord’s Day of wrath, Isaiah 61:3-11 will take place:
Jeremiah 33:6-9 In this Land, will be heard once more the sounds of joy and gladness, of weddings and celebrations. People will shout: Praise the Lord, for He is good, His love endures forever’, as they offer thanksgiving in the House of the Lord. By the Word of the Lord: In this place and in all its towns, now ruined and cleared of all peoples and animals, flocks and herds will once more graze. My people will receive all the blessings that I have promised to them. Ezekiel 36:8-12, Isaiah 35:1-10, Amos 9:13-15
Great are the promises the Lord has made to His righteous people. They will indeed ‘shout praises to the Lord’, when they are settled into their inheritance. Isaiah 35:1-10, Amos 9:13-15‘The House of the Lord’ - the third Temple will be built in Jerusalem. Haggai 1:6-9, Revelation 11:1

Jeremiah 33:15-16 In those Days, I will raise up a righteous leader, one descended from David. He will maintain the Law and justice in all the Land, all the people will be kept safe and will live undisturbed in the place of righteousness. Ezekiel 38:8
Jesus is from the line of David, however His Return to rule comes later, because the prophesies in Jeremiah 30:21 and Hosea 1:11, say the people will elect their own leader.

Jeremiah 33:17-26 It is unthinkable that I, the Lord could annul the Covenant that I made with David, the Levitical priests, or the two families of Israel and Judah. In My compassion, I will restore their fortunes and keep My promises to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Isaiah 54:9-10
Reference: REB, NIV, KJV. Some verses abridged.

Douggg said:

My reason for referring to Antiochus was to show that Abomination of Desolation is not the same as saying Abomination of Destruction.

The destruction of the second temple in 70 AD did include the sanctuary and the all the buildings in the massive structure - or else we would still seem them standing atop the temple mount in Jerusalem.

The 70th week temple will not be very big. It will be an interim step to get the animal sacrifices going as soon as possible.

John was told to take a reed (like a rod) and measure the temple (the sanctuary building) and the altar. So imagine that if you were holding a six foot rod and told to measure a building - would that building likely to be huge? Could you imagine doing it for the size of two of your living rooms instead?

That John is told to measure the temple and the altar (the brazen altar - the big fire platform) with a rod is an indication that it will not be big.

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I can't see them building the next temple any larger beyond the boundaries of the existing temple mount either. Least I haven't come across any scriptures revealing the construction of tribulation temple to be bigger.













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