Capitalism won't fall until church is removed.

Western society and captialism which are under attack by the liberal left radicals/socialists/marxists/communists, and islamics will not fall until the church is gone. (Rev 12, 13 and 17, 18)

Jesus said people would be buying, selling, eating, drinking, marrying, planting and building when the end begins...like now. Sure, gas prices are rising and radicals have a plan to bring down the West but people are still carrying on as usual.

George Soros just finished up his Bretton Woods meeting where he is plotting the demise of America and the West in order to bring about a New World Order. Even if Soros and his radicals in high places bring down the dollar, it will be replaced with something else and Capitalism will continue BECAUSE Jesus said people will be carrying on as usual when He appears and wrath begins, just like in the time of the flood.

We know that once the beast and false prophet are in charge, the financial system that is in place is facist communistic dictatorship where people cannot buy or sell unless they sware allegiance to the beast and take the mark in the right hand or forehead. Those who refuse are killed.

In Revelation 17 and 18, the beast and ten kings bring down "mystery babyon" which they hate. People often get confused, thinking that mystery babylon is part of the beast and ten kings but it is not. The beast and ten kings hate mystery babylon and destroy her. Look around...what are the devil worshippers of the world trying to destroy? - Western society (culture), capitalism (financial system), and Judeo-Christianity (religion - anti-God of Israel). From the world's perpective, where does Western Society and Christianity originate? (Europe - England/Italy)

And so who is mystery Babylon that they destroy?

Both Communism and Capitalism will have their day in the sun, but like all temporal models of human government and economics it will go the way of barter, mercantilism and all former things.

Tying Christianity and Capitalism together is dangerous and heretical.

-CryptoLutheran

CryptoLutheran said:

Both Communism and Capitalism will have their day in the sun, but like all temporal models of human government and economics it will go the way of barter, mercantilism and all former things.

Tying Christianity and Capitalism together is dangerous and heretical.

-CryptoLutheran

Click to expand...

LOL.

Legitimizing communism is even more heretical, CryptoLutheran ...Marxism/communism/socialism has done these things, CryptoLutheran.Marxism/communism/socialism has done these things, CryptoLutheran.Marxism/communism/socialism has done these things, CryptoLutheran. One might argue that communism hasn't taken over the world ... but power? No doubt about the power of communism ... Communist China holds a major portion of USA debt. China's abandonment of the US dollar may inflict great damage on the currency (arguably self-inflicted, but I digress ... ).An awful lot of people in the world seem willing to bow down to their Marxist/communist/socialist masters in totalitarian states, CryptoLutheran.On the one hand ... freedom

On the other hand ... servitude



Questions?

.

The OP gave me a good laugh.

religious&reasonable said:

The OP gave me a good laugh.

Click to expand...

Specifics please ... what specifically is funny?


.

zeke73 said:

George Soros just finished up his Bretton Woods meeting where he is plotting the demise of America and the West in order to bring about a New World Order.

Click to expand...

You know when you include garbage statements like the one above it undermines any credibility in the rest of your post.

NightHawkeye said:

LOL.

Legitimizing communism is even more heretical, CryptoLutheran ...

Click to expand...

If anything it's equally heretical.

Tying Christianity to any system of the world is generally going to pervert the message of Christ.

-CryptoLutheran

CryptoLutheran said:

Both Communism and Capitalism will have their day in the sun, but like all temporal models of human government and economics it will go the way of barter, mercantilism and all former things.

Tying Christianity and Capitalism together is dangerous and heretical.

-CryptoLutheran

Click to expand...

Really? The free market system is far more compatible with Biblical teachings than ANY statist political/economic system. The flaw of capitalism and any man made system is that the holiness of God isn't a consideration although in capitalism the faithful servant of the Lord can work and prosper; under statist systems the faithful servant of the Lord is looted, is not allowed to be the steward of the wealth that God blessed hiim with because the state run by carnal men makes that impossible, it is the state and not God who calls the shots. The strength of capitalism is that it recognizes the importance of privately owned property, of productive labor rewarding the man who extends the effort, of trade, of profit, it rewards the productive and punishes the slothful. It also recognizes that the proper role of the state is to secure the blessings of liberty and the inalienable rights that God has blessed men with.

Proverbs 10:4

Poor is he who works with a negligent hand, but the hand of the diligent makes rich.

Proverbs 12:24

The hand of the diligent will rule, but the slack hand will be put to forced labor.

Proverbs 13:4

The soul of the sluggard craves and gets nothing, but the soul of the diligent is made fat.

Proverbs 18:9

He also who is slack in his work is brother to him who destroys.

2 Thessalonians 3:10-11

For even when we were with you, we used to give you this order: if anyone is not willing to work, then he is not to eat, either. For we hear that some among you are leading an undisciplined life, doing no work at all, but acting like busybodies.

Proverbs 14:23

In all labor there is profit, but mere talk leads only to poverty.

Proverbs 28:19

He who tills his land will have plenty of food, but he who follows empty pursuits will have poverty in plenty.

Proverbs 21:5

The plans of the diligent lead surely to advantage, but everyone who is hasty comes surely to poverty

Proverbs 13:11

Wealth gathered by vanity shall be diminished; but he that gathereth by labor shall increase.

"For we brought nothing into the world, just as we shall not be able to take anything out of it. If we have food and clothing, we shall be content with that. Those who want to be rich are falling into temptation and into a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires, which plunge them into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is the root of all evils, and some people in their desire for it have strayed from the faith and have pierced themselves with many pains. But you, man of God, avoid all this. Instead, pursue righteousness, devotion, faith, love, patience and gentleness." - 1 Timothy 6:7-11

"But woe to you who are rich, for you have received your consolation. But woe to you are filled now, for you will be hungry. Woe to you who laugh now, for you will grieve and weep. Woe to you when all speak well of you, for their ancestors treated the false prophets in this way." - Luke 6:24-26

"No one can serve two masters. He will either hate one and love the other, or be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth. Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink, or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food and the body more than clothing? Look at the birds in the sky; they do not sow or reap, they gather nothing into barns, yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are not you more important than they? Can any of you by worrying add a single moment to your life-span?" - Matthew 6:24-27

"He replied to him, 'Friend, who appointed me as your judge and arbitrator?' Then he said to the crowd, 'Take care to guard against all greed, for though one may be rich, one's life does not consist of possessions.'" - Luke 12:14-15

"Put to death, then, the parts of you that are earthly: immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and the greed that is idolatry." - Colossians 3:5

"To the angel of the church in Laodicea, write this: 'The Amen, the faithful and true witness, the source of God's creation, says this: "I know your works; I know that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either cold or hot. So, because you are lukewarm, neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth. For you say, 'I am rich and affluent and have no need of anything,' and yet you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked. I advise you to buy from me gold refined by fire so that you may be rich, and white garments to put on so that your shameful nakedness may not be exposed, and buy ointment to smear on your eyes so that you may see." - Revelation 3:14-18

"My brothers, show no partiality as you adhere to the faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ. For if a man with gold rings on his fingers and in fine clothes comes into your assembly, and a poor person in shabby clothes also comes in, and you pay attention to the one wearing the fine clothes and say, 'Sit here, please,' while you say to the poor one, 'Stand there,' or 'Sit at my feet,' have you not made distinctions among yourselves and become judges with evil designs? Listen, my beloved brothers. Did not God choose those who are poor in the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom that he promised to those who love him? But you dishonored the poor person. Are not the rich oppressing you? And do they themselves not haul you off to court? Is it not they who blaspheme the noble name that was invoked over you? However, if you fulfill the royal law according to the scripture, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself,' you are doing well. But if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors." - James 2:1-9

Capitalism is often an exploitative system that hurts the poor and emphasizes the bottom line--making profit. Unregulated capitalism isn't just dangerous, it's evil.

So yes, I stand by my remark that tying Christianity together with Capitalism is heretical. And it is antichrist.

-CryptoLutheran

CryptoLutheran said:

Capitalism is often an exploitative system that hurts the poor and emphasizes the bottom line--making profit. Unregulated capitalism isn't just dangerous, it's evil.

So yes, I stand by my remark that tying Christianity together with Capitalism is heretical. And it is antichrist.

-CryptoLutheran

Click to expand...

That's your best argument, CryptoLutheran?

Capitalism is imperfect, therefore it equates with Marxism/communism/socialism?


That's really your best argument, CryptoLutheran?


.

CryptoLutheran said:

"For we brought nothing into the world, just as we shall not be able to take anything out of it. If we have food and clothing, we shall be content with that. Those who want to be rich are falling into temptation and into a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires, which plunge them into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is the root of all evils, and some people in their desire for it have strayed from the faith and have pierced themselves with many pains. But you, man of God, avoid all this. Instead, pursue righteousness, devotion, faith, love, patience and gentleness." - 1 Timothy 6:7-11

"But woe to you who are rich, for you have received your consolation. But woe to you are filled now, for you will be hungry. Woe to you who laugh now, for you will grieve and weep. Woe to you when all speak well of you, for their ancestors treated the false prophets in this way." - Luke 6:24-26

"No one can serve two masters. He will either hate one and love the other, or be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth. Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink, or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food and the body more than clothing? Look at the birds in the sky; they do not sow or reap, they gather nothing into barns, yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are not you more important than they? Can any of you by worrying add a single moment to your life-span?" - Matthew 6:24-27

"He replied to him, 'Friend, who appointed me as your judge and arbitrator?' Then he said to the crowd, 'Take care to guard against all greed, for though one may be rich, one's life does not consist of possessions.'" - Luke 12:14-15

"Put to death, then, the parts of you that are earthly: immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and the greed that is idolatry." - Colossians 3:5

"To the angel of the church in Laodicea, write this: 'The Amen, the faithful and true witness, the source of God's creation, says this: "I know your works; I know that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either cold or hot. So, because you are lukewarm, neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth. For you say, 'I am rich and affluent and have no need of anything,' and yet you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked. I advise you to buy from me gold refined by fire so that you may be rich, and white garments to put on so that your shameful nakedness may not be exposed, and buy ointment to smear on your eyes so that you may see." - Revelation 3:14-18

"My brothers, show no partiality as you adhere to the faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ. For if a man with gold rings on his fingers and in fine clothes comes into your assembly, and a poor person in shabby clothes also comes in, and you pay attention to the one wearing the fine clothes and say, 'Sit here, please,' while you say to the poor one, 'Stand there,' or 'Sit at my feet,' have you not made distinctions among yourselves and become judges with evil designs? Listen, my beloved brothers. Did not God choose those who are poor in the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom that he promised to those who love him? But you dishonored the poor person. Are not the rich oppressing you? And do they themselves not haul you off to court? Is it not they who blaspheme the noble name that was invoked over you? However, if you fulfill the royal law according to the scripture, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself,' you are doing well. But if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors." - James 2:1-9

Click to expand...

Capitalism is often an exploitative system that hurts the poor and emphasizes the bottom line--making profit

Click to expand...

The ability to exploit others is far more limited in true free markets than in ANY statist system. It is only when the state intervenes into the economiy that institutionalized expolitation becomes possible and that is when the poor are truly hurt. BTW wealth is not a static quantity and in free market trade it isn't a situation if one side profits the other side must lose, BOTH parties can profit so 'profit' in and of itself is not a bad thing and for the success of any enterprise profit is a must ... that alternative is an enterprise which loses money and goes out of business. In addition, there are plenty of people who start companies where exercising the talents that God has blessed them with, creating quality products and services is a driving factor in the business and not simply making as much money as they possible can.

Unregulated capitalism isn't just dangerous, it's evil.

Click to expand...

Ah but capitalism IS regulated ... by God (as are all other systems). What you mean is you want men regulating the market and I have to wonder why you believe men can do a better job at regulation in their fallen state than God can. Of course God regulates in His own way and time table and that may not meet your approval ... apparently it does not

So yes, I stand by my remark that tying Christianity together with Capitalism is heretical. And it is antichrist.

Click to expand...

So under what system can men work and eat the bread of their labor? Under what system is covetousness and theft not institutionalized? Under what system are the lazy and slothful more likely not to eat and be in want? Under what system are men more likely to look to God than to men for guidance and 'regulation'? What system more readily rewards virtuous behavior than wicked behavior? Under what system is private property respected and protected? The answer to all these questions is a free market system.

It is as Winston Churchill said: "The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries."

BondiHarry said:

The ability to exploit others is far more limited in true free markets than in ANY statist system. It is only when the state intervenes into the economiy that institutionalized expolitation becomes possible and that is when the poor are truly hurt. BTW wealth is not a static quantity and in free market trade it isn't a situation if one side profits the other side must lose, BOTH parties can profit so 'profit' in and of itself is not a bad thing and for the success of any enterprise profit is a must ... that alternative is an enterprise which loses money and goes out of business. In addition, there are plenty of people who start companies where exercising the talents that God has blessed them with, creating quality products and services is a driving factor in the business and not simply making as much money as they possible can.

Click to expand...

In a pure, unregulated capitalist system there is nothing limiting the exploitation of others apart from the good will of the employer. And that's exactly what happened until regulations were put into place: that's why we have child labor laws, it's why there is such a thing as a minimum wage, that's why we have safety nets that ensure that corporations don't get a free reign.

Not because the government is some benevolent entity, but because corporations aren't benevolent either, because trusting in the total benevolence of the employer is foolishness. Just as trusting in the total benevolence of the State would be foolishness.

Ah but capitalism IS regulated ... by God (as are all other systems). What you mean is you want men regulating the market and I have to wonder why you believe men can do a better job at regulation in their fallen state than God can. Of course God regulates in His own way and time table and that may not meet your approval ... apparently it does not

Click to expand...

Last I checked God called those who trust in Him to act in the world on behalf of the benefit of others; that is if we don't want an exploitative and unjust economic system that gives free reign for the corrupt to keep their wealth and keep the lower classes marginalized; if we want to ensure that their are civil laws in place that prevent the exploitation of child labor, if we want safety nets that prevent underpaying workers, then we have a responsibility to speak on behalf of mercy and justice.

Not because the State is a benevolent entity, but because of our legitimate concern in regard to injustice against the poor and the marginalized.

It's not about glorifying the State, that would be its own evil. It's about speaking out against injustice, and being an advocate of the poor. And if we are able to, through the course of civil law, protect the lives and livelihood of the least of these why would we not?

I'm not advocating a Communist state, every example of Communism attempted to put in practice has demonstrated that the basic principles are often wholly impractical since property and authority invariably never becomes the common possession of all, but falls into the hands of the select few.

My issue is not the advocacy of Communism, but to point out that Capitalism is not God's economy, and identifying Capitalism with Christ is heresy, it's dangerous, and it's evil; especially when Capitalism is given free reign without any sort of regulation whatsoever.

You wouldn't want to live in a pure, unregulated capitalistic economy any more than I would; in such a system there would be nothing but the good will of your employer to keep you from making more than just a few pennies on the hour. What would stop him if not the law? Do you have that much faith in the innate benevolence of man? I don't and I don't think you do either.

That's why I think the best Christian position I've seen in regard to the market is neither advocacy of pure Capitalism or pure Communism, but instead addresses both the need of free and good market, a fair and just and merciful market. Pope Benedict's Caritas en Veritate is, from what I've read of it, a most excellent Christian treatment of the concept of market and economy and is worth at least taking a look at.

So under what system can men work and eat the bread of their labor? Under what system is covetousness and theft not institutionalized

Click to expand...

This side of the Parousia? None. But that doesn't mean that we become complacent or apathetic, as bearers of Christ's word to the poor and the forsaken we have a job to do.

Under what system are the lazy and slothful more likely not to eat and be in want?

Click to expand...

This would seem to be a big issue for you, especially with your continual quoting of St. Paul's words to the Thessalonians. You might want to take a gander at what Paul is talking about instead of ripping it from context to serve your own purposes.

Under what system are men more likely to look to God than to men for guidance and 'regulation'? What system more readily rewards virtuous behavior than wicked behavior? Under what system is private property respected and protected? The answer to all these questions is a free market system.

Click to expand...

Conversely it's that same system that has men looking at themselves rather than God or their neighbor, it rewards wickedness and betrays the righteous, it regards private property an excuse for greed and hording, it regards a thing as mine and not to be shared with those who have less. None of which is from God, so the virtues you hold so dearly are a double-edged sword that are as much a vice as anything else.

It is as Winston Churchill said: "The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries."

Click to expand...

Good for him. Christ said feed the hungry and look out for the needy.

-CryptoLutheran

NightHawkeye said:

That's your best argument, CryptoLutheran?

Capitalism is imperfect, therefore it equates with Marxism/communism/socialism?


That's really your best argument, CryptoLutheran?


.

Click to expand...

My argument is that no economic system is tied to Christianity, or any government system; that amounts to heresy and idolatry.

It's really that simple.

I also continue to take serious issue with people willingly able to denounce the troubles and exploitative evils of Communism while turning a blind eye to the troubles and exploitative evils of Capitalism.

It's a form of arrogance and confusion of the Christian message that needs to be spoken out against because the purity of Christ and the Gospel needs to continually be announced.

It's also that simple.

-CryptoLutheran

zeke73 said:

Western society and captialism which are under attack by the liberal left radicals/socialists/marxists/communists, and islamics will not fall until the church is gone. (Rev 12, 13 and 17, 18)

Jesus said people would be buying, selling, eating, drinking, marrying, planting and building when the end begins...like now. Sure, gas prices are rising and radicals have a plan to bring down the West but people are still carrying on as usual.

Click to expand...

Agreed. But since the world banking system in the last go around has come close to the brink, we are not that far away from being gone.

CryptoLutheran said:

My argument is that no economic system is tied to Christianity, or any government system; that amounts to heresy and idolatry.

It's really that simple.

I also continue to take serious issue with people willingly able to denounce the troubles and exploitative evils of Communism while turning a blind eye to the troubles and exploitative evils of Capitalism.

Click to expand...

Pure Capitalism is certainly not ideal because it can be abusive and usually is. It has to be kept on a tight lease of social justice.

I am also in favor of limited land ownership. And big portions of public land for everyone to enjoy. Otherwise, the rich have everything and the poor nothing. And there is only so much land to go around. I need a soapbox....

As it has been so eloquently pointed out in this thread by my brethren, the reason that the Bible, even Jesus himself, describes a free market, capitalistic society is because it is the only form of financial system that rewards hard work and entreprenurialism while ensuring that "if a man does not work, he shall not eat".

Proverbs 31 also describes the "ideal woman/wife" which is full of hard work and entreprenurialism.

Jesus gave us a parable of the talents left with the servants. Some servants doubled the talents through wise decisions and investments while one very lazy servant buried the talent. The master told the lazy servant that he could have at least banked it and earned interest.

But I digress.

The point of capitalism, for a Christian, is not about gettiing rich. It's about using the talents and abilities God gave us to pursue our interests and dreams with His blessing and providing for our families and the poor at the same time.

Living in a society where the government is the provider, protector, taking care of a man from cradle to grave is not what God intended for humanity. If a man knows that he will receive provision whether he works or not, whether he pursues his interests or not, that man will sit on his tush.

The point of this thread is that, Scripturally, Western Capitalism (free market system) does not fall before the church is removed, but after. Jesus himself said that people will be buying, selling, planting, building, marrying, eating, drinking up until the point that the Day of the Lord (wrath) begins.

Last I check, Jesus said nothing at all about Capitalism. Or Communism for that matter.

Both are products of a much later era. About the earliest we can go back for Capitalism is about fifteen hundred years after Christ.

-CryptoLutheran

The fascist right wing and their lunatic conspiracy theories are leading you into doom and darkness my friend.

you need to understand a few things about this ultra-conservatism real quick and do some serious soul searching on who your real enemies are. I am honestly scared at what the republican party is leading Christians into. It is straight biblical Satanic trickery and it appears you cannot begin to see it yourself, which tells me how strong of a hold it has one you. I will pray for you my man.


straight from the www.churchofsatan.com

Satanism and Objectivism

But Ayn Rand is not a natural pin-up for American conservatives. Her individualism went beyond libertarianism. It was an exciting, revolutionary mix of greed, atheism, materialism and the Marquis de Sade. It comes as no surprise that the 1960s Church of Satan lifted most of its high-camp gospel from Ayn Rand. One of its acolytes notes with approval that, “Rand’s philosophy rejects as ethical accepting the sacrifice of another to one’s self … The Satanic view sees as ethical the reality of domination of the weak by the strong.”

Click to expand...

What have the Tea Party and the Church of Satan got in common? Answer: the sinister Ayn Rand – Telegraph Blogs

What sort of financial system is God describing here? Notice that this hard-working woman fears the Lord, not the government. God is her provider and blesses her hard work. The government is not redistributing her wealth that she earned with her labor and resourcefulness.


Proverbs 31: 10 A wife of noble character who can find?
She is worth far more than rubies.
11 Her husband has full confidence in her
and lacks nothing of value.
12 She brings him good, not harm,
all the days of her life.
13 She selects wool and flax
and works with eager hands.
14 She is like the merchant ships,
bringing her food from afar.
15 She gets up while it is still night;
she provides food for her family
and portions for her female servants.
16 She considers a field and buys it;
out of her earnings she plants a vineyard.
17 She sets about her work vigorously;
her arms are strong for her tasks.
18 She sees that her trading is profitable,
and her lamp does not go out at night.
19 In her hand she holds the distaff
and grasps the spindle with her fingers.
20 She opens her arms to the poor
and extends her hands to the needy.
21 When it snows, she has no fear for her household;
for all of them are clothed in scarlet.
22 She makes coverings for her bed;
she is clothed in fine linen and purple.
23 Her husband is respected at the city gate,
where he takes his seat among the elders of the land.
24 She makes linen garments and sells them,
and supplies the merchants with sashes.
25 She is clothed with strength and dignity;
she can laugh at the days to come.
26 She speaks with wisdom,
and faithful instruction is on her tongue.
27 She watches over the affairs of her household
and does not eat the bread of idleness.
28 Her children arise and call her blessed;
her husband also, and he praises her:
29 “Many women do noble things,
but you surpass them all.”
30 Charm is deceptive, and beauty is fleeting;
but a woman who fears the LORD is to be praised.
31 Honor her for all that her hands have done,
and let her works bring her praise at the city gate.