The Great Tribulation

Has the Great Tribulation begun

  • Yes, the Great Tribulation has begun

  • No, the Great Tribulation has not begun

  • The Great Tribulation is going to begin soon

  • I do not know and do not care about the Great Tribulation

  • I am not sure, but count this vote


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Douggg

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Doug, I am glad we agree that the 6th Seal and 7th vial are not the same event. But I do disagree with a few of your points:

The sixth seal takes place over a very short period of time. imo, between 8 and 12 hrs. When the universe is rolled up like a scroll the world will see heaven where God dwells. So the sun darkening/moon turning red/universe parting and the appearance of Jesus before the throne of God could be considered one event. That takes place 45 days before Jesus descends to this earth as described in Revelation 19.

The seventh vial takes place during that 45 days interval, near the end of it.

45 days -- I don't know where you get this time frame from. If you agree that the seals, trumpets and vials happen in sequence then the 45 days cannot be accurate.
If you don't know where I am getting the 45 days, how do you know that it can't be accurate :)? I will explain where I am getting the 45 days.

In Daniel 12, the 1335th day from the setting up of the AOD, if a person remains faithful and doesn't worship the AOD, then that person will be blessed on that 1335th day.

So the 1335th day is the day that Jesus returns as described in Revelation 19.

Since the 7 years is 2520 days long, it is simply a matter of subtracting from day 2520 the 1335 days to determined when the AOD is setup to be worshiped. It turns out to be on day 1185. btw, all of the days are measured from the time the AC confirms the covenant which is day 1.

Therefore on day 1185 the AOD is setup to be worshiped, and the Jews start fleeing to the mountains. During their escape, the two witnesses are fighting the AC for 75 days until they are overcome and killed on day 1260.

Getting back to the 45 days. The AOD is setup on day 1185 (2520-1335). In Daniel 12, it doesn't say what happens at the end of the 1290 days. It is my opinion, what will happen is that the world will see the sign of Jesus,
which triggers the world to gather its armies together at Armageddon.

So day 1185 (AOD setup day) + 1290 days = day 2475 or 45 days right before day 2520 (Jesus's return to this earth day). On day 2475, the sixth seal takes place, which I have already point out takes place over a 8-12 hour period. revealing Jesus in great power and glory before the throne of God.

From that point, the sixth vial the part about the AC, FP and Satan convincing the kings of the earth to band their armies together to fight Jesus.

The 2 witnesses are killed after preaching for 1,260 days (or 3 1/e Hebrew years). When they are resurrected and raptured 3 1/2 days later we are at the end of the 6th trumpet (aka the "second woe").
NJ, the two witnesses testify from day 1 to day 1260. Those 1260 days correspond to Revelation 12:6 the 1260 days in that verse.

After the 1260 days, in Revelation 12, there is the war in heaven. Satan is kicked down with a time, times and half times left.

The first woe is Satan, having been cast down, opens the bottomeless pit (fifth trumpet)

The second woe is the 200,000,000 strong army that kills a third of mankind (sixth trumpet). imo, the kings of the east marching to the middleeast to battle the AC.

The third woe is the vials of wrath that God pours out.


This is the midpoint of the 70th week (which is 7 Hebrew years). The 6th Seal sets everything into motion because the Day of The Lord and the 70th week do not start until after it's opened. So the time between the 6th seal and the 6th trumpet is much more than 45 days.
The seals have all been opened as a matter of revealing to us the future. But not as a matter of fulfillment. None of them have been fulfilled or even started.

The 70th week will begin when the AC confirms the covenant (Mt. Sinai covenant imo) with many.

Seeing Jesus and His armies -- You said that people of the Earth will see Jesus at the 6th Seal. Where is this ever said? There is no mention of Jesus returning at the 6th Seal, or His armies.
It is by the reaction of those who are terrified. They will be able to see the throne of God, in blinding light, and the Lamb of God coming forth from that throne.

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
The sixth seal is about the sign of the Son of man's coming in heaven. His actual descent to earth as described in Revelation 19 takes place 45 days after the sign appears.
Jesus's coming (descending to this earth) is after the Sign.

The Sign of the Son of Man in heaven, that precedes his coming in the clouds is found in the sequence of events in Matthew 24:29-30 and in Revelation 6, the sixth seal.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: .......


In progression....after events 1, 2, 3, 4, in Matthew 24:29.... then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven....after which, is Jesus coming in the clouds.

1. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened
2. and the moon shall not give her light
3. and the stars shall fall from heaven
4. and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
5. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:

Now look at the sixth seal in Revelation 6...same sequence, but here we are revealed what the Sign will be.

1. and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair
2. and the moon became as blood
3. And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
4. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
5. And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

The Sign of the Son of Man in heaven... is that the world is going to see Jesus in heaven before the throne of God.

There is not going to be any stars, no cosmos... no nothing between earth and heaven where God's throne is. That is the sign. There is not going to be any question. It is going to be beyond comprehension. Oh, what a day, what a day that is going to be! Especially to them who have been persecuted by the Antichrist.

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


After the world sees the Sign,and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and from Revelation 16, the armies of the world will gather at Armageddon and prepare to stop Jesus from returning. Once they have gathered together, Jesus comes in the clouds of heaven in great glory back to earth accompanied with armies of His saints, as Lord of Lords and King of Kings, to defeat them and the AC and FP.

Doug L.
 
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NJBeliever

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Therefore on day 1185 the AOD is setup to be worshiped, and the Jews start fleeing to the mountains. During their escape, the two witnesses are fighting the AC for 75 days until they are overcome and killed on day 1260.

Ok, I understand what you mean now. But I still disagree. lol.


So day 1185 (AOD setup day) + 1290 days = day 2475 or 45 days right before day 2520 (Jesus's return to this earth day). On day 2475, the sixth seal takes place, which I have already point out takes place over a 8-12 hour period. revealing Jesus in great power and glory before the throne of God.

First off, the Sixth Seal is what precedes the Day of The Lord and the 70th week. It's not in the 70th week. The 6th seal starts everything. As for the 8-12 hour period, where is there any confirmation of that in Scripture? I see none. We don't even know that people can see Jesus at the 6th seal. So obviously we're in strong disagreement here.

From that point, the sixth vial the part about the AC, FP and Satan convincing the kings of the earth to band their armies together to fight Jesus.

NJ, the two witnesses testify from day 1 to day 1260. Those 1260 days correspond to Revelation 12:6 the 1260 days in that verse.

After the 1260 days, in Revelation 12, there is the war in heaven. Satan is kicked down with a time, times and half times left.

The first woe is Satan, having been cast down, opens the bottomeless pit (fifth trumpet)

The second woe is the 200,000,000 strong army that kills a third of mankind (sixth trumpet). imo, the kings of the east marching to the middleeast to battle the AC.

Ok, so here we have it. The Second woe is the 1263 1/2 day. This is the ONLY day marker we have in all of Revelation. The Earthquake of the resurrection of the 2 witnesses IS the 6th woe. So we know that since they are resurrected 3 1/2 days later, it has to be the 1,263 1/2 day.

The third woe is the vials of wrath that God pours out.

The third woe is the opening of the temple in Heaven which leads to lightning, thundering, hail and voices.


The seals have all been opened as a matter of revealing to us the future. But not as a matter of fulfillment. None of them have been fulfilled or even started.

Matthew 24: 5For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. 6And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8All these are the beginning of sorrows.

The first 4 seals are not the Day of The Lord. They are before the end time really starts. Jesus clearly says "the end is not yet."

The first seal is opened when Jesus ascends into Heaven (Revelation 5).
The 70th week will begin when the AC confirms the covenant (Mt. Sinai covenant imo) with many.

Agreed (except for the Mt. Sinai part).

It is by the reaction of those who are terrified. They will be able to see the throne of God, in blinding light, and the Lamb of God coming forth from that throne.

The sixth seal is about the sign of the Son of man's coming in heaven. His actual descent to earth as described in Revelation 19 takes place 45 days after the sign appears.
Jesus's coming (descending to this earth) is after the Sign.

The Sign of the Son of Man in heaven, that precedes his coming in the clouds is found in the sequence of events in Matthew 24:29-30 and in Revelation 6, the sixth seal.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: .......


In progression....after events 1, 2, 3, 4, in Matthew 24:29.... then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven....after which, is Jesus coming in the clouds.

1. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened
2. and the moon shall not give her light
3. and the stars shall fall from heaven
4. and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
5. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:

Now look at the sixth seal in Revelation 6...same sequence, but here we are revealed what the Sign will be.

1. and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair
2. and the moon became as blood
3. And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
4. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
5. And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

The Sign of the Son of Man in heaven... is that the world is going to see Jesus in heaven before the throne of God.

There is not going to be any stars, no cosmos... no nothing between earth and heaven where God's throne is. That is the sign. There is not going to be any question. It is going to be beyond comprehension. Oh, what a day, what a day that is going to be! Especially to them who have been persecuted by the Antichrist.

This just is not in the Bible. We're not told this. We don't know what the "Sign" is. You could be right, but it's just not stated. But also, I think you should consider that Matthew tends to skip around chronoligically in that chapter. Jesus is describing the end of the 70th week right before his Coming, not the 6th seal.

As you may have been able to tell, I am not a classic Pre-tribber. I don't believe in a 1st seal rapture. The first 4 seals are before the 70th week. Plus we know from the 5th seal martyrs (who are not raptured saints) that God has not yet risen to punish the world with his wrath yet. It all starts at the 6th seal. So that can't be 45 days before the end.
 
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Zadok7000

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You are inserting something that is not in the scripture.

There is nothing said in this verse about Jesus returning or a war breaking out. .


This is such a very simple question, and it is the heart of the matter, please answer it concisely: What is "the Wrath of the Lamb"? Because whatever it is, it is happening at the 6th Seal...
 
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NJBeliever

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This is such a very simple question, and it is the heart of the matter, please answer it concisely: What is "the Wrath of the Lamb"? Because whatever it is, it is happening at the 6th Seal...

And there is a simple answer:

1 Thessalonians 5:3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.


Prior to the 6th seal the world will be humming along as normal. And then a global earthquake will occur. One so strong that every island and mountain on the planet will be moved. This is why I reference the tsunami. It will be far greater than the damage from that event. It's going to be global. The world is going to be absolutely devastated. At the same time, the sun is going to go dark and the moon will turn to blood and the stars will be falling from the sky.

The wealthy and powerful will know that God is doing this. So their proclamation that is the wrath of God and Jesus is not an indication that CHrist has come with his armies for battle (which is not stated). It's an indication that they are scared out of their minds of the sudden destruction that has just taken place. And they know only God could do all this.
 
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Douggg

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Ok, I understand what you mean now. But I still disagree. lol.

That's fine. That's all I ask for is that you understand where I got my 45 days from. We don't have to agree. :D

First off, the Sixth Seal is what precedes the Day of The Lord and the 70th week. It's not in the 70th week. The 6th seal starts everything. As for the 8-12 hour period, where is there any confirmation of that in Scripture? I see none. We don't even know that people can see Jesus at the 6th seal. So obviously we're in strong disagreement here.
The 8-12 hour period for the sun darkening, moon turning red, the universe being rolled up like a scroll, and the people of earth seeing Jesus before the throne of God.... is founded in Revelation 16:15.

Keep in mind that near the end of the seven years, the battles of Daniel 11:40-45 are taking place in the middle east. The kings of the east have marched across the euphrates, killing a third of mankind on their way.

In Daniel 11:45, it says at that time the AC's end shall come, although no human hand could defeat him (Daniel 8:25).

Back to the 8-12 hrs. In Revelation 16:15, Jesus says he comes as a thief, which would be unexpected to the armies of the world fighting in the middle east. Contrary to them, the saints who have endured the persecution of the AC know that Jesus is coming back at the end of the 7 years.
So they are watching for his appearance.

In order to come as a thief, the powers of the universe being shakened and removed would have to take place very quickly. All of those things taking place rapidly to have a terrifying effect on the evil men of the world at that time.

In Matthew 24, the sign must be in heaven. But what heaven? The universe has been removed. So the heaven where the sign is where God dwells.

The sequence is the same in both Matthew 24 and Revelation 6. It is easy to see the sequence. After the sun is darkended, next the moon shall not give her light, next the stars fall from heavens, the powers of the universe shaken, and THEN shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in HEAVEN. What reaction does that draw from the evil mean of the earth? Revelation 6 says.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:

Ok, so here we have it. The Second woe is the 1263 1/2 day. This is the ONLY day marker we have in all of Revelation. The Earthquake of the resurrection of the 2 witnesses IS the 6th woe. So we know that since they are resurrected 3 1/2 days later, it has to be the 1,263 1/2 day.
Oh, I don't disagree that the two witnesses are resurrected on day 1263 1/2, and there is an earthquake that same hour. But that takes place at the midpoint of the 7 years not at the end.

Trumpet 1-4 which deal with the environment are the plagues issued by the two witnesses as they battle the AC.

Trumpet 5, the first woe, is after the two witnesses have ascended and Satan cast down to begin the second half of the 7 years..

Trumpet 6, the second woe is near the end of the seven years as the kings of the east march to battle the AC in the Daniel 11:40-45 battles.

When it says in Revelation 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly. that does not mean that the second woe has anything to do with the two witnesses... it just means that the revelation gets back to the topic of the woes and trumpets.

Trumpet 7 announces the third woe which is the wrath of God, that will be poured out of the seven vials during the second half of the seven years.

This just is not in the Bible. We're not told this. We don't know what the "Sign" is. You could be right, but it's just not stated. But also, I think you should consider that Matthew tends to skip around chronoligically in that chapter. Jesus is describing the end of the 70th week right before his Coming, not the 6th seal.
We know what the Sign in heaven is by reading Matthew 24 and Revelation 6 together. Matthew 24 doesn't say what the Sign is specifically, but it does give the sequence of events that take place right before the Sign appears.
As you may have been able to tell, I am not a classic Pre-tribber. I don't believe in a 1st seal rapture. The first 4 seals are before the 70th week. Plus we know from the 5th seal martyrs (who are not raptured saints) that God has not yet risen to punish the world with his wrath yet. It all starts at the 6th seal. So that can't be 45 days before the end.
There is not a timing problem in my view. The 1st seal is the AC, and seals 2, 3, 4 all take place during his time. The saints are martyred over the second half of the 7 years.

Near the end of the seven years, like a thief, totally unexpected by the evil men of this world, in a 8-12 hour period the universe is removed and the Sign of the coming of the Son of Man appears in heaven, 45 days (1290-1335) prior to his descent. The armies of the world gather during the 45 days to fight Jesus, and Jesus descends to this earth to destroy them on day 2520.

Doug L.
 
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zeke37

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And there is a simple answer:

1 Thessalonians 5:3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

Prior to the 6th seal the world will be humming along as normal. And then a global earthquake will occur. One so strong that every island and mountain on the planet will be moved. This is why I reference the tsunami. It will be far greater than the damage from that event. It's going to be global. The world is going to be absolutely devastated. At the same time, the sun is going to go dark and the moon will turn to blood and the stars will be falling from the sky.

The wealthy and powerful will know that God is doing this. So their proclamation that is the wrath of God and Jesus is not an indication that CHrist has come with his armies for battle (which is not stated). It's an indication that they are scared out of their minds of the sudden destruction that has just taken place. And they know only God could do all this.
what about a symbolic meaning for mountains...
ie. nations...politics
the NWO etc...

perhaps that is what is moved....like the powers in heaven are shaken
 
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NJBeliever

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what about a symbolic meaning for mountains...
ie. nations...politics
the NWO etc...

perhaps that is what is moved....like the powers in heaven are shaken

No, it is definitely not symbolic. This is why I have been constantly citing Isaiah 2 which is the parallel prophecy of the 6th Seal. Both verses are discussing literal mountains and caves that the powerful people of the world run into. The earthquake, mountains and stars falling are all real and not symbols.

Hebrews 12:25See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven: 26Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.

Again, it is God The Father's time to punish the wicked. He is going to shake the Earth and Heaven (the first time was at Mt. Sinai). And that happens at the 6th Seal.

Isaiah 2 is fulfilled at the 6th Seal. This is the Day of The Lord. THIS is the thief in the night event as per 1 Thess 5.
 
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Zadok7000

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And there is a simple answer:

1 Thessalonians 5:3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

Prior to the 6th seal the world will be humming along as normal. And then a global earthquake will occur. One so strong that every island and mountain on the planet will be moved. This is why I reference the tsunami. It will be far greater than the damage from that event. It's going to be global. The world is going to be absolutely devastated. At the same time, the sun is going to go dark and the moon will turn to blood and the stars will be falling from the sky.

The wealthy and powerful will know that God is doing this. So their proclamation that is the wrath of God and Jesus is not an indication that CHrist has come with his armies for battle (which is not stated). It's an indication that they are scared out of their minds of the sudden destruction that has just taken place. And they know only God could do all this.


All that and you never answered the question...
Let's make it even simpler:
Is Jesus the Lamb?
When does His wrath begin?
 
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Zadok7000

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No, it is definitely not symbolic. This is why I have been constantly citing Isaiah 2 which is the parallel prophecy of the 6th Seal. Both verses are discussing literal mountains and caves that the powerful people of the world run into. The earthquake, mountains and stars falling are all real and not symbols.

As I said before, you don't understand Biblical symbology at all if you actually believe there will be no mountains in the world during the milennium and actual stars will fall to the earth.
 
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NJBeliever

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As I said before, you don't understand Biblical symbology at all if you actually believe there will be no mountains in the world during the milennium and actual stars will fall to the earth.

Okay, you've shared your opinion. Unfortunately that is not an argument. Why don't you demonstrate that you're right? Simply explain your Interprative method for Scripture and show how Isaiah 2 and the 6th Seal of Revelation 6 should be understood.

I'm all ears.
 
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Zadok7000

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Okay, you've shared your opinion. Unfortunately that is not an argument. Why don't you demonstrate that you're right? Simply explain your Interprative method for Scripture and show how Isaiah 2 and the 6th Seal of Revelation 6 should be understood.

I'm all ears.


Me too - for these answers:
Is Jesus the Lamb?
When does His wrath begin?
 
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Zadok7000

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Okay, you've shared your opinion. Unfortunately that is not an argument. Why don't you demonstrate that you're right? Simply explain your Interprative method for Scripture and show how Isaiah 2 and the 6th Seal of Revelation 6 should be understood.

I'm all ears.

Just so I'm clear, you think there will be no literal mountains and literal stars will fall to the earth?
 
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NJBeliever

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Me too - for these answers:
Is Jesus the Lamb?
When does His wrath begin?

You accuse me of not understanding symbology. If you're going to make these accusations, back them up with your interpretive model and applicable Scripture or retract them.
 
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Zadok7000

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Okay, you've shared your opinion. Unfortunately that is not an argument. Why don't you demonstrate that you're right? Simply explain your Interprative method for Scripture and show how Isaiah 2 and the 6th Seal of Revelation 6 should be understood.

I'm all ears.


BTW, Isa. 2. I would be happy to go over it verse by verse. I never said it conflicts with the 6th Seal, only that the 6th Seal shows His Return - IE "the glory of his majesty".
 
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Zadok7000

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You accuse me of not understanding symbology. If you're going to make these accusations, back them up with your interpretive model and applicable Scripture or retract them.

They are simple questions nj. Just answer them to show me the error of my ways...
 
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Douggg

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Just so I'm clear, you think there will be no literal mountains and literal stars will fall to the earth?

Hi Zakdok, the stars falling to the earth is just another way of saying they will drop from sight. The sun appears to settle to the earth at sunset everyday. The point is in the sixth seal the cosmos will be removed.

Even with the cosmos removed, what is the boundary of heaven where God's throne is? No-one can answer that kind of question. John was not giving a science textbook explanation in the sixth seal. He just put it in terms that described what he saw.

After Jesus has returned, this earth will have to be restored because of all the damaged done during the tribulation period. Since the grandeur of the mountains adds to the beauty, imo, there will be some new mountains to replace those which were reduced.


Doug L.
 
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Zadok7000

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Hi Zakdok, the stars falling to the earth is just another way of saying they will drop from sight. The sun appears to settle to the earth at sunset everyday. The point is in the sixth seal the cosmos will be removed.


Nothing personal, but I'm waiting to hear NJ's reply to those questions...
 
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LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
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Just so I'm clear, you think there will be no literal mountains and literal stars will fall to the earth?
What about literal hail :thumbsup: :)

Reve 16 and Great Hail question - Christian Forums
Interesting the same form of the LXX greek word used in Ezekiel 38:22 is used in Reve 16:21
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Ezekiel 38:22 "And I am judeged him in plague and in blood and downpour overflowing and stones of hail/417 'elgabiysh/# 5464 xalazhv,............

Reve 16:21 And great Hail/calaza <5464> as talent-weight/talantiaia <5006> is descending out of the Heaven upon the Men.
And blaspheme the God the Men out of the blow of the Hail/calazhV <5464>, that great is the blow of it/her, tremendous.
 
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